Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi all. If SG from the GT forum is on here, thanks for your posts. I just saw the discussion - I read it all the way through for once! - and saw your posts. You're right, I'm never post there because I'm afraid I'll be deliberately misunderstood (JS' response to your post) or have my head ripped off for some other reason, so that in the end any point I try to make would be lost in more sturm und drang.

Plus the description of the label issues here was very useful (yours?) because who has the time or patience to read through 2 months of bickering to figure out what are the key issues and who's advocating for what and why....

No, I'm not an MCPS plant like s/o said over there. Geez! I'll say it loud and clear: I think they do a cr@ppy job for the 90th pctile kids. Happy, JS?

I am the PP who has been posting in DCUM about label issues. I am not SG, but I know who she is. I do not post to the other forum since there are too many people with too many different agenda. So, you do not know me. Unfortunately the vocal people give a bad reputation to the forum and the advocacy. Does not mean evryone should stop advocating for advanced learners. We need to organize beyond personal differences.

EB? Hon, we need to organize but not with an organization that ain't done nothin' yet. Many voices on their own expressing the truth are far more powerful than having the GTA expressing our views for us. Where does the GTA stand about the label? Do you think it is right to call anyone who can read above the MCPS grade level gifted? You folks say that MCPS standards are low. Then if you are just above-MCPS grade it means you are probably on level, right?

Where can I find the stuff about your meetings so that I can see what you've done? What do you do with the $15 membership fee? What are the GTA bylaws ... you know like my child's PTA has? Let us hear more about the GTA before you try to pull us in.

Hi, SG here.

Just to be clear on my opinion: I think there are extremely dedicated members of GTA who have thought long and hard about their positions, and who have spent countless, thankless hours lobbying MCPS for more equitable treatment of kids who require acceleration both in magnets and in their home schools. I completely support the "Challenge Every Child" approach and I urge everyone to go to their website and learn about their very sensible positions:

http://www.gtamc.org/

Anonymous wrote:Hi all. If SG from the GT forum is on here, thanks for your posts. I just saw the discussion - I read it all the way through for once! - and saw your posts. You're right, I'm never post there because I'm afraid I'll be deliberately misunderstood (JS' response to your post) or have my head ripped off for some other reason, so that in the end any point I try to make would be lost in more sturm und drang.

Plus the description of the label issues here was very useful (yours?) because who has the time or patience to read through 2 months of bickering to figure out what are the key issues and who's advocating for what and why....

No, I'm not an MCPS plant like s/o said over there. Geez! I'll say it loud and clear: I think they do a cr@ppy job for the 90th pctile kids. Happy, JS?

I am the PP who has been posting in DCUM about label issues. I am not SG, but I know who she is. I do not post to the other forum since there are too many people with too many different agenda. So, you do not know me. Unfortunately the vocal people give a bad reputation to the forum and the advocacy. Does not mean evryone should stop advocating for advanced learners. We need to organize beyond personal differences.

Hi all. If SG from the GT forum is on here, thanks for your posts. I just saw the discussion - I read it all the way through for once! - and saw your posts. You're right, I'm never post there because I'm afraid I'll be deliberately misunderstood (JS' response to your post) or have my head ripped off for some other reason, so that in the end any point I try to make would be lost in more sturm und drang.

Plus the description of the label issues here was very useful (yours?) because who has the time or patience to read through 2 months of bickering to figure out what are the key issues and who's advocating for what and why....

No, I'm not an MCPS plant like s/o said over there. Geez! I'll say it loud and clear: I think they do a cr@ppy job for the 90th pctile kids. Happy, JS?

Anonymous wrote:I noticed that comment. Our ES provides a separate teacher/class for some above grade level math students. There are in-class above grade level reading groups as well. Not sure if this will be phased out for the younger kids as 2.0 expands, but so far, so good.

I should clarify that this math arrangement is in addition to the regular pull-out groupings for the other two or three levels of math offered.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Magnets are different from HGCs. HGC testing is recommended for those who are at the top in Global Screening.

Magnets are what they call the high schools. Those require separate tests and teacher recommendations etc.

Again, HGC testing follows from Global Screening. I know--my child went through it. You can also ask for your child to be screened for HGCs.

Nope they are not different. 3 of my kids went through HGC testing, 1 has gone thorugh both middle school and high school magnet testing. They are all magnet programs, they are called differently. In case of HGC, the applications are sent to parents whose kids are identified as GT and avilable online. However non-GT students can still apply. Both GT non-GT students application will not be accepted after the deadline. For middle school and HS forms are not sent anymore. GT and non-GT identified students must apply before deadline. After this process the selection is as I have described before.

You made my point. In HGCs the kids are sent if their kids fall in the upper end of Global Screening. Anyone else, as I said, can apply too.

For HS magnets you apply.

In both cases the MCPS website gives you the info. During Global Screening you do send in parent recommendations and teacher recommendation are considered.

Anonymous wrote:Magnets are different from HGCs. HGC testing is recommended for those who are at the top in Global Screening.

Magnets are what they call the high schools. Those require separate tests and teacher recommendations etc.

Again, HGC testing follows from Global Screening. I know--my child went through it. You can also ask for your child to be screened for HGCs.

Nope they are not different. 3 of my kids went through HGC testing, 1 has gone thorugh both middle school and high school magnet testing. They are all magnet programs, they are called differently. In case of HGC, the applications are sent to parents whose kids are identified as GT and avilable online. However non-GT students can still apply. Both GT non-GT students application will not be accepted after the deadline. For middle school and HS forms are not sent anymore. GT and non-GT identified students must apply before deadline. After this process the selection is as I have described before.

Anonymous wrote:Agreed. The reason that MCPS has embraced the below average as the new on grade is because it make a large chunk of parents in the wealthier areas happy. Why? Because they can claim their kids are above grade level!! Seriously, if parents were reasonable MCPS would be too. Since we have more than 40% above average what we have to realize is that it is the baseline for average. We have to ask for the regular classroom instruction to be pitched at that level. The GTA wont accept that because it wont support their Lake Wobegon outlook. So, we as parents must rise up and self advocate by asking MCPS pitch the curriculum higher.

That is my thinking about a reasonable strategy. More about GT later.

Are you really up-to-date with county education policy changes? I am asking since you do not understand why the level of GT identification has gone down. It is not really wealthier parents asking that has resulted in degrading the standard. It is actually political groups questioning why %ge of kids of color is so low for above grade levl group. In the process to be more PC MCPS has lowered the standard. Sometime solution to hard questions are not easy. School is not the primary place for social engineering. But the political group is strong enough to influence and the regular parents expecting better education for kids are still not one group. We are still bickering whether the other person's kid is GT or not! How does it matter? What matters is every kid must get a days worth of education in school, everyday.

Get engaged with GTA and see for yourself what GTA will accept. It is a volunteer organization. You can make it happen. Do not assume what GTA will accept until you personally get engaged.

I noticed that comment. Our ES provides a separate teacher/class for some above grade level math students. There are in-class above grade level reading groups as well. Not sure if this will be phased out for the younger kids as 2.0 expands, but so far, so good.

Anonymous wrote:
Does your home school not provide pull-out advanced math and reading sections?

My elementary school currently provides pull-out for advanced math for 3rd, 4th and 5th graders. The school has curriculum 2.0 and there is no advanced math pullout anymore. However realize that even in the existing advanced math groups the range is way too wide since the school tries to create a math class based on age and not ability. So, a lot of the time teachers are focusing on kids who come to class underprepared. For reading the kids are differenciated based on reading level and that is avilable only 15 minutes of class time every day. I do not believe that is sufficient for the kids. What I would rather see is kids of varied age be grouped based on ability so the range in the class is small. This way each child gets educated for the whole class period. The ability assessment must happen every year. This is where everyone would win. But we are far from the ideal situation. Hence we still need to advocate for all kids until utopia arrives.

Magnets are different from HGCs. HGC testing is recommended for those who are at the top in Global Screening.

Magnets are what they call the high schools. Those require separate tests and teacher recommendations etc.

Again, HGC testing follows from Global Screening. I know--my child went through it. You can also ask for your child to be screened for HGCs.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that the GT issue has been really confused. The people who want to label their kids GT because they read or do math above the grade level are really messing up GT advocacy.

Look at the messy opposition to GT. It is against the above grade group. NOT AGAINST GT. GT gets pulled in because the ABOVE GRADE people want the GT label for their children.

Anyway, I don't understand the GTA wanting private homeschoolers and private school parents to join their numbers. I know, I know, some of us have children in both public and private. But this is a bout a public school programs and it belongs in public school programs.

GT is about children who learn differently, right? So, don't let the GTA pull you into their above grade reading = GT nonsense. These folks give GT a bad name and let real GT get attacked by their shenanigans. Don't let yourself get dragged into acting like self absorbed, entitled bullies.

Do not get sucked into "Divide and rule" philosophy this post is trying to make. Yes "GT" in MCPS means all kids who need above grade level education which MCPS does not provide in the local school. Until we can change the id to "Above Average" or "Accelerated" or "Prepared" or whatever that is the only id which comprehensive and precise. Until the identification procedure changes, let us advocate for all our kids together. The more we try to split hair over who is GT and who is not the more our kids will lose. I hope we understand that we need one another in this game called MCPS education.

BTW, is not GTA being inclusive to invite private and homeschooler to speak about challenges they face with MCPS related to education that they chose the alternatives. Most people would not want to homeschool or pay for private school if MCPS can provide challenging education to each and every kid. That is the fight we should focus on. GTA is not the villain here, MCPS and BOE are!

Does your home school not provide pull-out advanced math and reading sections?

Anonymous wrote:Here is Dr. Starr's email: Joshua_Starr@mcpsmd.org. Write to him directly. The BOE email is: BOE@mcpsmd.org. Write to them too.

I am not sure what PP means by "magnet school testing has no bearing on the GT identification." It does!! Global Screening is used to find students who are GT and then they are tested for magnets.

I think there may be students above the 90th percentile in the regular classroom but they are such a small amount and we can't lump them with the well prepared math and English group. What the well prepared group wants and needs is different what Gt kids need.

The Lake Wobegon crowd is different from GT and I think getting in with that group is a mistake.

I am the PP. The magnet testing is not automatic like the 2nd grade GT testing. It is available to those students (GT or non-GT) only who apply within a certain deadline. GT identification is not used for magnet selection; I know this for sure, I have talked to the people who do the selection. Magnet selection is based on magnet tests, teacher recommendations, previous years grade, current years grade for 2 quarters, student's essay, parent’s essay (in elementary school) and racial and gender balance (this one is not an official policy, but used). The last criterion is actually why I think it is not "only" highly gifted that get selected.

It is not true that the above 90th percentile is a small amount. 6 out of a class of 30 is not a small amount. I see this in my neighborhood school regularly. Statistics aside, we should be more concerned if the number of above 90%tile students in a class is less. As the percentage of highly able kids in a class goes down, the chances of them getting appropriate instruction dramatically vanishes. Why should even a single child be ignored by the school system? What if the child happens to be from a less affluent family and the parents can neither afford alternative schooling nor have a voice to advocate?

Agree that the need of above grade level students and the 90%tile students are different. But the “needs not being met in the school system” is the common problem for both the groups. Should the groups fight separately for their need? BTW, MCPS does not recognize this separate grouping.

I would rather spend my energy fighting for the common need of challenging every kid at the level they start than fight for separate identifications while many kids are being ignored! I really do not care whether a kid needs to read Shakespeare or be in Algebra class is caused by superior intelligence or because of preparedness. I really do not care if a kid needs to have IM in 6th grade or Geometry. As long as MCPS policy clearly expects schools to teach the IM ready kids and as well as the Geometry ready kids in the neighborhood school, I would be fine with it. Let us not complicate the fight. Let us expect MCPS to challenge every kid and not fall in the trap of labeling distinctions.

Agreed. The reason that MCPS has embraced the below average as the new on grade is because it make a large chunk of parents in the wealthier areas happy. Why? Because they can claim their kids are above grade level!! Seriously, if parents were reasonable MCPS would be too. Since we have more than 40% above average what we have to realize is that it is the baseline for average. We have to ask for the regular classroom instruction to be pitched at that level. The GTA wont accept that because it wont support their Lake Wobegon outlook. So, we as parents must rise up and self advocate by asking MCPS pitch the curriculum higher.

That is my thinking about a reasonable strategy. More about GT later.

I agree with 8:55 and 9:01 both, even though they might seem to be saying different things. I think the two groups are different and the issues are accordingly different.

1st Type of Issue. 8:55 posted about the 90th pctile child who doesn't get into the magnet and doesn't get acceleration in the home school. I don't think the solution is to call this kid GT. This just buys into MCPS' flawed baseline, which is that "below average" is the new "on grade." Instead of buying into this and trying to slot kids into it with odd labels, we need to start at the problem's base:
1. Average is on-grade. Below average is below grade.
2. Montessori-type identification would be fantastic although for money and bureaucratic/accountability reasons I can't see MCPS adopting this sensible idea.
3. More "boutique" schools to challenge 90th pctile kids in their strengths, like the arts and literature.

2nd Type of Issue. Then there are the GT kids in magnets. I see these issues as distinct. I think the magnets generally do a great job - from my kids' experience in 4 magnets so far. The problem here is different - there aren't enough magnets. We know qualified kids who didn't get in.

And yes, can we try to act in a way that doesn't make people hate us more? When I posted about an arts magnet earlier s/o slammed me for questioning her magnet kid's intelligence, which was a complete misreading.