Anonymous
Post 02/09/2012 14:01     Subject: Kind of Felt Uncomfortable Because of My Ethnicity On a Tour
Anonymous wrote:Ok not pp you are responding to but that is your opinionsomeone else might feel differently.


True, it is only one person's opinion (mine). But this feeling is very common amongst American Asians. Having known a large number of them over the 40+ years of my life, this is a common complaint. As another person pointed out, Google the topic "perpetual foreigners" and you'll fine some very erudite analysis of the problem that many American Asians feel. I've heard this complain repeatedly by thousands of American Asians. So just because it isn't universal doesn't mean that it isn't a common enough concern to just avoid grilling a person unless they offer their race or cultural heritage as a topic for conversation. I've found that those who are interested in discussing it will make it known that it's fine. If you get none of those verbal cues, then just don't ask.
Anonymous
Post 02/09/2012 13:46     Subject: Re:Kind of Felt Uncomfortable Because of My Ethnicity On a Tour
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
"Touch a black girls hair" - OMG - where do you come up with this stuff.


It's actually an *incredibly well-known complaint* of black women that white women ask to touch their hair. You really need to educate yourself.

I chalk this all up again to DC's lack of cosmopolitanism in the upper middle class, and in particular a lack of exposure to Asians. In more truly multicultural places with a bigger Asian population (I'm thinking SF, NYC) it's just UNDERSTOOD that it's rude for a white person to grill a "minority" about where they came from; and it's definitely a faux pas to assume that Asians are some monolithic culture (like, they all celebrate Chinese New Years). It's not like some catastrophic racial slur to do so; it's just understood to be rude.
Anonymous
Post 02/09/2012 13:41     Subject: Kind of Felt Uncomfortable Because of My Ethnicity On a Tour
While it is natural to be "curious" about differences of any kind between ourselves and others, part of being an adult is learning that it is up to the other person to decide when and if to share personal information about themselves.

If you met a person with a very noticeable scar on their face, would it be polite if within minutes of meeting them you asked "what happened to your face?" That isn't going to be perceived by others as trying to get to know them. It's going to be perceived as nosy, intrusive, oblivious, or possibly even cruel. Potentially that person could be proud of that scar and might volunteer at some point during the meeting that they are a proud survivor of cancer, or a former soldier, etc. Or it may be something they are horribly self-conscious about. But at the point you've keyed in on their physical appearance as the best way to "get to know them" you've reduced them down to that physical trait in a way that you probably don't do to people that look more like you.

This really isn't limited to ancestry- people can make people feel "othered" by keying in on any visible trait. I have a friend who is 6'10". It is rare for me to be out with him and not have someone stop and ask how tall he is or make comments about basketball (no he doesn't play, he's an academic). That must get so old. I guess I don't really understand why most adults would understand that asking a person with a scar about their scar on first meeting would not be the best way to get to know them, but can convince themselves that it is perfectly fine to assuage curiosity by asking someone about their ancestry because they look different than you do.
Anonymous
Post 02/09/2012 13:33     Subject: Kind of Felt Uncomfortable Because of My Ethnicity On a Tour
Ok not pp you are responding to but that is your opinionsomeone else might feel differently.
Anonymous
Post 02/09/2012 12:59     Subject: Kind of Felt Uncomfortable Because of My Ethnicity On a Tour
SAM2 wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
If you think questions about your ancestry or ethnic background are offensive, what is it you find offensive about those questions? Please educate me.

I find it offensive that despite the fact that I was born and raised in the United States and am as American as the next guy, that I am still treated as a foreigner. I find it offensive that when my colleague who is an immigrant but white is not being asked questions such as "Where are you from?" that make him feel like an outsider or foreigner, I am. You assume o r at least make me feel like you assume that I am not from here, I am not American and I am not "one of us" but don't treat the Caucasian person who is a foreigner that way.

Until you know how much importance *I* place on my ethnic heritage, then you shouldn't place more importance on it than I do because otherwise you imply that my heritage is more important than I, as an individual, am.

Thanks for your response, and to others who responded to my question. To summarize, it seems that if I ask a question about your ancestry or ethnic background, you will be offended because you assume I am making all sorts of negative judgments about you, and implicitly questioning whether you are "American enough." Is that a correct summary of your view? If so, your assumption is both unfortunate and inaccurate (at least for me personally, and perhaps for many others). Like I said, people are curious about other people; that's just human nature. If I ask about you and your background, that doesn't mean I'm judging you.


I am the PP that you responded to. Communication is a 2-way street. As important as it is for me to try to understand what you are trying to say, it is also important for you to attempt to convey that information in a way that I will understand your message. As I said, some people do assume/imply that I am foreign or different. In your case, you may not mean to, but you make me feel different just by probing into my background. When you ask "Where are you from?" and I say "Pittsburgh" that is where I am from, where I know the most. That is the information I am giving you to "get to know me". When you then question "No, where are you *really* from?" it says one of several things. One, I don't know where I'm from. Two, you don't believe me and I don't know about my own origins. Or, perhaps that some ancestral background that I don't know much about is far more important than where I really am from. In other words, for whatever reason, I have not identified myself as Chinese and yet you want to know more about my Chinese origins. You place more importance on delving into information that I have not given you, than I do. It's called prying and it's intrusive. If I don't volunteer the information when you ask, for whatever reason, I'm not presenting it as a topic for discussion. Although I do know a lot more about my cultural heritage, my siblings don't. They didn't pay too much attention despite what our parents tried to convey. My siblings know probably less about China, our relatives there and our cultural background than most Americans do because they never cared to pay attention to their background. I know a lot of my friends around here who know far more about China and Chinese culture than my siblings do. So, when you ask them where they really are from, it is Pittsburgh. And it isn't uncommon with first generation American Asians. In the 1940's and 1950's in post-WWII America, it was very unpopular to be Asian. EVERY Asian of whatever strain was considered to be Japanese. Americans including American-born Asians were interred in concentration camps. There was wide-spread anti-Asian sentiment. So many Asians from the period tried to avoid the semblence of Asian heritage. They raised their children with no knowledge of their cultural background and they were afraid of the wide-spread bigotry that was very common. So 50 years later, you have many American-born Asians where were raised with no knowledge of their cultural backgrounds and also to avoid talking or seeming Asian because of the racism that while less common, is still common. Look up the cases of Vincent Chin, Wen Ho Lee, Danny Chen, and other race-based crimes to see why some people still shy away from their Asian heritage. If I am interested in talking about my heritage, when you ask me my background, I'll say something like "I was born in Pittsburgh but my family is originally from China" That gives you the opening you need to ask. Some immigrant friends say "I'm originally from Taiwan" or similar. When the person offers, then you can ask. Otherwise, it's rude and prying. If you're really curious, there are a lot of good resources on the Internet, feel free to Google information about China, Chinese immigrants and American-born Chinese.

It's also segregation. I've been in company with a friend who is originally from South Africa and is a naturalized US Citizen. She doesn't have much accent anymore, but she is an immigrant. She knows more about her cultural heritage than I do about mine. And yet, if we're together, people will ask me those types of questions but not her. You don't treat someone who was born and raised outside the US as a foreigner, but you do treat someone who was born and raised inside the US as one, just because of my Asian features.

While you may be just curious and want to learn, read my last line above again. What you are doing is, regardless of how I answer, you will segregate me because of my race, categorize me as "Chinese" and ask me questions about it and assume that I know more about that background to teach you about it. You are saying that what I am is more important than who I am. Whether you mean to or not, that is what you are saying to me.
?
Anonymous
Post 02/09/2012 12:25     Subject: Re:Kind of Felt Uncomfortable Because of My Ethnicity On a Tour
@10:21 "How long will you be learning, I wonder?"

Forever I hope - do you think you know everything right now and you have nothing to learn?
Anonymous
Post 02/09/2012 12:17     Subject: Kind of Felt Uncomfortable Because of My Ethnicity On a Tour
It matters what non-Asian people consider as "foreign looking" because it's typically not white or black, it's Asian. Asians are "perpetual foreigners" in the US--regularly considered to not "really" be from here (hence the, "no, where are you REALLY from" questions).

Google the following phrases and educate yourself: "Perpetual foreigner" + Asian; "where are you really from" + Asian; and, for kicks: Asian + "honorary white"
Anonymous
Post 02/09/2012 12:16     Subject: Re:Kind of Felt Uncomfortable Because of My Ethnicity On a Tour
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:@8:09: I get it - and I am not saying it's the best situation - I also said if it makes her feel uncomfortable then don't send her kids there.

But I think she is an adult and may want to wonder - hmm! Why does this make me so uncomfortable.

I have a friend who is from Puerto Rico who gets mistaken for Asian all the time.
I have a friend who is black but we go to get Peruvian chicken and they speak Spanish to her - she is like - dude - no comprende.

A boy who is from El Salvador said to my friends daughter who is Peruvian - something about food. She was like hey I'm Peruvian - we are all about the squid and raw fish we don't eat that food. How is the kids to know - to him Hispanic is Hispanic.

We are all just learning - nobody is perfect.

People need to just chilll - why not say - Oh - My grandmother was <fill in the blank>. The OP won't even say what the heritage is - just hey "I'm NOT Chinese".

I have been in a school where I was the only white girl - it was brought to my attention by professors - like "yea we got a white girl" (Not really like that - so I could have been sensitive and I did ask one professor did they only accept me because they needed a white girl on their roster - he said - no but it really helps the class room with a different perspective - I was doing computer modeling of drug disposition. The librarian would say - so you want to be a model - I was like - this book is on COMPUTER modeling.)

I am not saying that OP should send their kids to a school if they do not feel comfortable our kids are not social experiiments. But she asked "am I being sensitive" and I frankly think "yes".

I get it sucks being called something you are not or having assumptions made about you. This was 1 teacher from the school.


There is a trend among whites to say: "I have this black friend --or I have this biracial friend and..." then go on to say that their friend isn't affected by whatever form of racism is being discussed. You are mistaken usually--your friend of color had no reaction in front of you because you are white. Clearly you don't get it and your "friend" or your kid's friend didn't feel comfortable teaching you in that moment. How long will you be learning, I wonder? You're an adult and you can't quickly learn to not ask prying weird questions of asians? To not ask Black girls if you can touch their hair? To not assume Black people cannot swim or ski or ice skate? It's not the 1950's no matter how you dress, you know?


Trend among whites - is a little bit like saying all black people like xyz. I didn't say I know somebody that is black or biracial - I said they are my friend and we discuss it. We discuss what experience we have and they are bothersome but they don't go "there" go to the place like these people think bad things about me just because they are assuming I speak spanish or whatever. Not react - Please - They react that is normal - like "no comprende" dude. I don't think you can hide from all that is in the world.

If somebody says something to personally attack you - that is wrong - but if somebody makes some awkward comment just becuase they lack knowledge that is totally different. They are not a "friend" they are my friend. You think they know everything- NO they learn from me I learn from them. That is a friendship.

"Touch a black girls hair" - OMG - where do you come up with this stuff.
SAM2
Post 02/09/2012 12:05     Subject: Kind of Felt Uncomfortable Because of My Ethnicity On a Tour
Anonymous wrote:SAM2, what does "foreign looking" mean to you?

For the question I posed, it's really irrelevant what I think -- what matters is what "foreign-looking" means to you (or anyone who is willing to answer the question). Here it is again, with a slight rephrase to make that clear ...

Does it matter what my apparent ethnicity is? If you consider me somewhat foreign-looking or foreign-sounding, does that change your assumptions when I ask about your background?


What I'm really curious about is whether you are more offended by questions about your background if they come from someone who (you assume) is from some traditionally American group. Are you less offended if the person asking does not sound or look traditionally American? For example, if my skin is medium brown, and I have a slight French accent, how does that change your level of offense when I ask about your background?

I'm not trying to fight with you. I'm just curious about what drives the discomfort you feel with such questions.
Anonymous
Post 02/09/2012 11:52     Subject: Kind of Felt Uncomfortable Because of My Ethnicity On a Tour
Anonymous wrote:SAM2, what does "foreign looking" mean to you?


Left off the "w," by accident. But, I'd be curious to know what you mean, exactly, by "foreign" looking?
Anonymous
Post 02/09/2012 11:50     Subject: Kind of Felt Uncomfortable Because of My Ethnicity On a Tour
SAM2, hat does "foreign looking" mean to you?
SAM2
Post 02/09/2012 11:38     Subject: Kind of Felt Uncomfortable Because of My Ethnicity On a Tour
Anonymous wrote:
SAM2 wrote:By the way, does it matter what my apparent ethnicity is? If I'm somewhat foreign-looking or foreign-sounding myself, does that change your assumptions when I ask about your background?

This is the perfect example of the exoticized "other." The assumptions you make aren't necessarily negative in YOUR mind, but they might be for the Asian person. No one wants to be a museum piece to be probed and examined. There are a couple unexamined assumptions in this post: 1) Asians have an "exotic" name. If you met someone named, say, Patrick O'Connor, would you ask about the origins of his name? Why is the Asian name so much more "interesting" to you? What do you consider to be "American"? 2) I'm assuming that you are white or black, but the assumption here is that if you are Asian you are "foreign-looking." Why, after all these posts, would you assume that someone who is Asian is "foreign"?

You're misinterpreting my question, and making lots of inaccurate assumptions about me. I'm sure it's unintentional, but I'll correct them below so we can communicate better.

First, I certainly wouldn't consider most Asian names "exotic" or even particularly notable. Nor would I consider "Patrick O'Connor" notable. I wouldn't comment on names like "Mike Smith" or "Yu-Ch'uan Wang" or "Viktor Pshonka", because those names are not too uncommon or interesting to me. But I don't have much experience with Laotian names. While I surely would realize the person I was meeting has some Asian heritage (assuming he actually was Laotian, I guess), I would not simply lump him in with other Asian names, as you suggest. Instead, I would be interested in the origins of his name, so I'd ask about it. Isn't that the whole point of getting to know people?

Second, I don't see why you'd think I classify all Asian people as foreign-looking. I used the word "foreign-sounding" to describe myself because I was keying off language in the prior post about foreigners, but perhaps there's a better phrase ("not a traditionally American accent"?). I'm also not sure what basis you have to assume my own race. That seems like the sort of dangerous assumption that causes problems. But more importantly, could you answer my question? If I look or sound "not traditionally Caucasian" -- perhaps Latino or maybe even Asian (!) -- do you still make all sorts of negative assumptions when I ask about your background?
Anonymous
Post 02/09/2012 11:00     Subject: Kind of Felt Uncomfortable Because of My Ethnicity On a Tour
SAM2 wrote:[
Fair enough on some of these points, but my point is that if we deter people from even seeking common ground, out of fear they might offend one another, then they're not going to make any progress. That's just how people interact. Sometimes we all step on one another's toes; it's part of learning to dance together.

We're probably not too far apart. I doubt you, or other PPs, really want to prohibit people from talking to one another, despite some of the more extreme statements posted here. And I'm certainly not suggesting it's OK to offend people or pry into their personal business. There's probably some middle range that most people are comfortable with.


It's no fun learning how to dance when I'm the one whose toes get stepped on all the time. My partner had better do a little practice before hand, or one day I'm just going to give up on him and find a new partner to dance with--one who's a little more thoughtful and done his homework before setting foot on the dance floor with me.
Anonymous
Post 02/09/2012 10:58     Subject: Kind of Felt Uncomfortable Because of My Ethnicity On a Tour
Some people will be offended no matter what you say, some people will love to talk about their background or who they are. Everyone judges and all races can be racist. The interaction sounds awkward but OP might also be a tad sensitive to it.questionis how did the child fit in at the school?
SAM2
Post 02/09/2012 10:53     Subject: Kind of Felt Uncomfortable Because of My Ethnicity On a Tour
Anonymous wrote:Again, I can't speak for the OP, but they asked where he was from and he answered with his hometown ....

I wasn't really talking about OP's situation with my posts, but rather was trying to explore the comment several PPs made about how offensive it is to ask about origins. I don't really have much of an opinion about OP's situation, because I find it very hard to judge from afar how a conversation like that went. Nuances are too easily lost when we hear only a brief summary. I can think of about a dozen questions I'd want to ask OP, with lots of follow ups, before I could evaluate the situation. What I find somewhat telling is that OP's own wife -- who did hear the full story in all its detail, and who presumably would be sensitive to OP's feelings -- said he was overreacting. That suggests to me that whatever happened wasn't really so cut-and-dried. So was what happened to OP really offensive and inappropriate? ... or was he being overly sensitive? ... or maybe some combination of both? I have no idea.

The point is it is rude to put labels on people that they aren't labeling themselves with at the time. Yes, they may have been looking for common ground but in so doing they made someone feel like an "other" or a novelty. No one likes feeling that way. That's not inclusive even if it is well intentioned.

Fair enough on some of these points, but my point is that if we deter people from even seeking common ground, out of fear they might offend one another, then they're not going to make any progress. That's just how people interact. Sometimes we all step on one another's toes; it's part of learning to dance together.

We're probably not too far apart. I doubt you, or other PPs, really want to prohibit people from talking to one another, despite some of the more extreme statements posted here. And I'm certainly not suggesting it's OK to offend people or pry into their personal business. There's probably some middle range that most people are comfortable with.