Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I didn't read the link, but I always found it remarkable that someone could do evil things like rape and murder, but ask for god's forgiveness on a deathbed, whereupon all the jugdemental fundies will pass the evil dude right onto heaven. Meanwhile, the athiest dies with a lifetime of good works has no chance. That is why I would not be surprised at the outcome of trusting a rapist over an athiest.

The belief you cite is held by a small offshoot of Christianity: the notion that once you are "saved" by professing belief in Christ, you are set, no matter what you do. Or, as an alternative, that God has His "elect," and everyone else was created for damnation. And also the idea that it is heaven or hell at the moment of death. Those beliefs are in the vast minority, and not compatible with reason.

Salvation is about choosing to align one's free will with God's will, for all eternity. God created all humans to be with Him forever, if we so chose. But He gave us free will, the ability to choose to be apart from Him forever. So He doesn't "send" anyone to Hell. We choose Hell. In Hell, we experience God's eternal love, just as those who chose to be close to Him do--but His love feels awful, even torturous, because we want no part of it. The Great Divorce does a great job explaining these theological concepts; I can't recommend it highly enough.

God made salvation possible through His love; none of us "deserve" salvation, but all of us can choose salvation, by the grace of God. However, God is also perfectly just. So every single person will face justice as we enter eternity, and God, only God, will judge our hearts, exactly where we were. So it doesn't matter if you never heard the name of Jesus Christ on this earth. He is a man who lived in the Roman Empire 2000 years ago, but he is also the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. God wrote His Word on our hearts, and we will be judged according to our personal culpability.

So the "noble savage," or the "good pagan," will know God for eternity, because s/he already has known and loved God here, while the Pharisee and the hypocrite and the self-loving will have a hard time. Not necessarily damnation, but most certainly a period of cleansing, of redemption, as the soul is made clean, to be perfect as God is perfect.

As for the original article cited, it strikes me as quite flawed, in so many ways, just done to stir up a sensationalist headline.

I appreciate your more nuanced language, but I still see that a converted murderer has a higher value in God's eyes than the nobel atheist. Someone in an earlier post said that atheist's don't have moral codes even if they live honorably. Well, what good is a more code if you don't really have to follow it all the time? Christianity seems to place a higher value on your selected belief team, rather than on following the code of the team. That's fine, but it creates some hairy situations for your team. Good luck with all the death row inmates you find in heaven. Hopefully, they will behave better in heaven than they did here.

No no no! How did you get that idea?? Every human being is PRICELESS, of incalculable value, infinitely precious, irreplaceable! Don't you know what God did for the worst sinners this world has ever seen? Remember, if Jesus was both God and man, as he claimed to be, his death was experienced INFINITELY, by his God nature and his human nature. So every aspect of his death was felt to an incomprehensible degree and extent. That was so NO ONE would have to be damned. But we'll still have perfect justice. We won't go straight to heaven if we still have sin to deal with.

Again, read The Great Divorce. It's a short novel, not a theological treatise. It captures a lot of truths within a short story.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I didn't read the link, but I always found it remarkable that someone could do evil things like rape and murder, but ask for god's forgiveness on a deathbed, whereupon all the jugdemental fundies will pass the evil dude right onto heaven. Meanwhile, the athiest dies with a lifetime of good works has no chance. That is why I would not be surprised at the outcome of trusting a rapist over an athiest.

The belief you cite is held by a small offshoot of Christianity: the notion that once you are "saved" by professing belief in Christ, you are set, no matter what you do. Or, as an alternative, that God has His "elect," and everyone else was created for damnation. And also the idea that it is heaven or hell at the moment of death. Those beliefs are in the vast minority, and not compatible with reason.

Salvation is about choosing to align one's free will with God's will, for all eternity. God created all humans to be with Him forever, if we so chose. But He gave us free will, the ability to choose to be apart from Him forever. So He doesn't "send" anyone to Hell. We choose Hell. In Hell, we experience God's eternal love, just as those who chose to be close to Him do--but His love feels awful, even torturous, because we want no part of it. The Great Divorce does a great job explaining these theological concepts; I can't recommend it highly enough.

God made salvation possible through His love; none of us "deserve" salvation, but all of us can choose salvation, by the grace of God. However, God is also perfectly just. So every single person will face justice as we enter eternity, and God, only God, will judge our hearts, exactly where we were. So it doesn't matter if you never heard the name of Jesus Christ on this earth. He is a man who lived in the Roman Empire 2000 years ago, but he is also the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. God wrote His Word on our hearts, and we will be judged according to our personal culpability.

So the "noble savage," or the "good pagan," will know God for eternity, because s/he already has known and loved God here, while the Pharisee and the hypocrite and the self-loving will have a hard time. Not necessarily damnation, but most certainly a period of cleansing, of redemption, as the soul is made clean, to be perfect as God is perfect.

As for the original article cited, it strikes me as quite flawed, in so many ways, just done to stir up a sensationalist headline.

Anonymous wrote:I didn't read the link, but I always found it remarkable that someone could do evil things like rape and murder, but ask for god's forgiveness on a deathbed, whereupon all the jugdemental fundies will pass the evil dude right onto heaven. Meanwhile, the athiest dies with a lifetime of good works has no chance. That is why I would not be surprised at the outcome of trusting a rapist over an athiest.

I bet that there were many people who were praying for your recovery, however. Why didn't you tell everyone you knew NOT to pray for you. That is what true atheist would do.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I believe what Ernie Pyle said, "There are no Atheists in the foxholes." When trouble comes, e.g., a child is very ill, a spouse, whatever, then I cannot help but believe an atheist does not pray, "Dear God, please save my child," I was brought up to believe in God and the power of prayer and I still believe and, my life has been far from easy. I still believe and I still pray.

Atheist and cancer survivor here. In my dark hours, I sure hoped that I would live to bring up my children, but no, I didn't pray.

I bet that there were many people who were praying for your recovery, however. Why didn't you tell everyone you knew NOT to pray for you. That is what true atheist would do.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Isn't it clear that a white man wrote the bible?

There were white men in the Middle East? 8)

Aren't Middle Easterners considered white?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I believe what Ernie Pyle said, "There are no Atheists in the foxholes." When trouble comes, e.g., a child is very ill, a spouse, whatever, then I cannot help but believe an atheist does not pray, "Dear God, please save my child," I was brought up to believe in God and the power of prayer and I still believe and, my life has been far from easy. I still believe and I still pray.

That is completely ignorant and very misleading. There are plenty of atheists in foxholes (literal or otherwise). Why would you feel that in order for others to cope with difficult situations they have to agree with you first? Doesn't that seem a bit egocentric to you?

Do you even know who Ernie Pyle was? You sound very angry and bitter. You also have a problem with comprehension.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I believe what Ernie Pyle said, "There are no Atheists in the foxholes." When trouble comes, e.g., a child is very ill, a spouse, whatever, then I cannot help but believe an atheist does not pray, "Dear God, please save my child," I was brought up to believe in God and the power of prayer and I still believe and, my life has been far from easy. I still believe and I still pray.

Atheist and cancer survivor here. In my dark hours, I sure hoped that I would live to bring up my children, but no, I didn't pray.

I bet that there were many people who were praying for your recovery, however. Why didn't you tell everyone you knew NOT to pray for you. That is what true atheist would do.

I'm a Christian but I don't get why you think a 'true' atheist would tell people not to pray for them. they may think it is a pointless exercise but usually out of appreciation for people being caring and out of being polite I would expect an atheist to just say Thank you. I don't believe in 'vibes' but if someone says I am sending good vibes your way, I just say Thank you - not please don't.

Yeah 'cause you live in reality.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I believe what Ernie Pyle said, "There are no Atheists in the foxholes." When trouble comes, e.g., a child is very ill, a spouse, whatever, then I cannot help but believe an atheist does not pray, "Dear God, please save my child," I was brought up to believe in God and the power of prayer and I still believe and, my life has been far from easy. I still believe and I still pray.

Atheist and cancer survivor here. In my dark hours, I sure hoped that I would live to bring up my children, but no, I didn't pray.

I bet that there were many people who were praying for your recovery, however. Why didn't you tell everyone you knew NOT to pray for you. That is what true atheist would do.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I believe what Ernie Pyle said, "There are no Atheists in the foxholes." When trouble comes, e.g., a child is very ill, a spouse, whatever, then I cannot help but believe an atheist does not pray, "Dear God, please save my child," I was brought up to believe in God and the power of prayer and I still believe and, my life has been far from easy. I still believe and I still pray.

Atheist and cancer survivor here. In my dark hours, I sure hoped that I would live to bring up my children, but no, I didn't pray.

I bet that there were many people who were praying for your recovery, however. Why didn't you tell everyone you knew NOT to pray for you. That is what true atheist would do.

I'm a Christian but I don't get why you think a 'true' atheist would tell people not to pray for them. they may think it is a pointless exercise but usually out of appreciation for people being caring and out of being polite I would expect an atheist to just say Thank you. I don't believe in 'vibes' but if someone says I am sending good vibes your way, I just say Thank you - not please don't.