Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
(BTW, I know discrimination when I see it, I am a partner at a law firm and bump my head up against the glass ceiling on a daily basis. Very interesting that more than 50% of new associates are women, but only 15-20% of the partners are women at most law firms, but I digress.)

I'm curious. If you are already a partner, what glass ceiling do you bump against? Are there higher positions that are not accessible to women at the law firm?

Yes, compensation, status in the firm, types of cases you work on and with whom, whether you are included in client pitches, security (just b/c you are a partner doesn't mean you can't be terminated).

Anonymous wrote:
(BTW, I know discrimination when I see it, I am a partner at a law firm and bump my head up against the glass ceiling on a daily basis. Very interesting that more than 50% of new associates are women, but only 15-20% of the partners are women at most law firms, but I digress.)

I'm curious. If you are already a partner, what glass ceiling do you bump against? Are there higher positions that are not accessible to women at the law firm?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Maybe I am in denial. I would love for other Congressional members to weigh in if I am wrong . . .

Yes, you are in denial. By there very definition, country clubs and other membership clubs are designed and intended to convey status.

For heaven's sake, their websites don't even have information about how to become a member on them.

That said, I am finding this thread oddly fascinating.

So, how are these various clubs with regard to admitting gay and lesbian people and their families?

I admit I may be in denial (and of course know that there are members at Congressional who are probably assholes/racists/homophobes; there are after all, more than 1000 members). But with all due respect, if you aren't a member, how do you know what the people are like.

What exactly is the social status you thinks clubs convey? What does it buy you? Certain types of friends that you won't otherwise have from your work, neighborhood, school? Admission into elite schools? I don't get it.

It may have been that historically this was the purpose of clubs, but not buying that this is the case anymore. Maybe it is a generational thing. It goes back to the point that people think members have secret meetings and talk about how fabulous they are and pat each other on the back.

We use Congressional to play golf, use the pool and restaurants, period. I don't go there with the purpose of gaining admission to some exclusive group of people. I have better things to do with my time.

Since we all have so much time on our hands (baby is sleeping), I will also make a point about business contacts, since someone mentioned it above. Yes, clubs are a great place to bring/impress clients. So, if you have a client who likes to play golf, it is a good thing and probably helps build business to bring them to your club. You can certainly do a lot of schmoozing in the 5 hours that it takes to play golf.

But it not generally the case that joining a club will help you GET clients who are members, in my opnion. At least at Congressional, it is considered impolite/uncool to discuss business at the club. In fact, you are prohibited from conducting business on the grounds (unless you rent one of the conference rooms). We are reminded of that all the time (of course, people break the rule and it is not always clear what is conducting business v. just talking about business).

I know that when I play golf, we often don't know what the other people in our group do until well near the end of the round (and maybe not even then). In other words, people don't say. "Hi, and am John Doe and the CEO of Marriot." That would be considered crass.

People want to enjoy themselves, not be pitched for work. It would probably even backfire if you approached a member and asked for business.

Also, there are so many members, what are the chances that you are going to randomly meet up with someone who is in your field and actually in the position to help you out, or give you business.

That said, if you are constantly running into/being paired up with someone who is in your field, of course you will become friendly and may decide to do business together, or they may give you advice or refer you to someone who can help you. But if someone thinks joining a club (and spending $100K) is going to help them build his/her business with members, they are crazy.

On the issue of no information on the website, I agree that is strange and was frustrating to me when i wasn't a member. But I suppose b/c you need someone to sponsor you, there is no need to put on the website; you just ask your friend and they give you the information. And yes, I understand that the fact that you need a current member to sponsor you does mean there is some self-selection.

I don't think anyone gives any thought to whether a member is gay/lesbian. I am sure there are many members who have gay/lesbian friends and who would act as a sponsor -- then the process described above. Have you tried it?

I think the bottom line is that people think that all club members must be white and conservative assholes (not that all conservatives are assholes). I am a liberal and so are many people I know at the club. We are a new generation, thank god. (BTW, I know discrimination when I see it, I am a partner at a law firm and bump my head up against the glass ceiling on a daily basis. Very interesting that more than 50% of new associates are women, but only 15-20% of the partners are women at most law firms, but I digress.)

Anonymous wrote:Burning Tree is one of the few clubs left that does not admit women. Its for serious male golfers and is getting rather geriatric I hear (heh heh).

There are a number of minority members (not enough, to be sure). And certainly a huge mix of Catholic and Jewish members.

Gee, how does any institution/organization openly discriminate in this age of discrimination and lawsuits?

Are Catholics still considered a "minority" and a characteristic to weigh in the "qualifications" of an applicant?

BTW, yes the story about Chevy Chase and the adopted child is true.

Anonymous wrote:
Maybe I am in denial. I would love for other Congressional members to weigh in if I am wrong . . .

Yes, you are in denial. By there very definition, country clubs and other membership clubs are designed and intended to convey status.

For heaven's sake, their websites don't even have information about how to become a member on them.

That said, I am finding this thread oddly fascinating.

So, how are these various clubs with regard to admitting gay and lesbian people and their families?

9:29 -- thank you so much for your insightful post. I must admit I've had so many prejudices (well some "post"-judices based on some people I've met) about country club members, particularly members of "exclusive" clubs like Congressional. You sound so down-to-earth and nice!. Your post has reminded me that it's important to withold judgment based on material trappings (well, anything external for that matter).

Anonymous wrote:Without a doubt Chevy is the top of the heap. Within the "country club set" it is the most prestigious and selective. Congressional is also very prestigious. Columbia not as much. Kenwood is easy to get into (minimal waitlist) so it doesn't have the prestige, but its a friendly and fun club with lots of really nice members. Truly, when you speak of the most prestgious in terms of country clubs, its mostly about how hard it is to get in and WHO gets in. Of course many of them restrict membership to certain types of people, that is pretty much the point of "country clubs" which are private and can admit and reject whom they choose. The in town clubs (Metropolitan, Cosmos, University, Sulgrave) are equally exclusive and restrictive of membership but in regards to different criteria. It is the world of private clubs, like it or not, and how they operate. Washington Golf and Country Club is for Arlingtonians and has little to no presence in Washington-proper's social scene but is THE big deal in Arlington. Bellhaven is the big one for those in Alexandria and that part of Virginia. Woodmont is mostly Jewish and for the Potomac crowd. Burning Tree is one of the few clubs left that does not admit women. Its for serious male golfers and is getting rather geriatric I hear (heh heh).

You really do not need to worry about this just because your child is in private school but that's the general and frank scoop on Washington's clubs.

This is so strange to me. I am a member at Congressional and don't have think of clubs as being "prestigious" or "selective" in the sense certain private schools are prestigious when compared to others. In other words, I never think of Congressional as conveying certain "social" status on me at all. How weird to even think that. At least at Congressional, it is so hard to get into simply because there is huge demand b/c it is considered one of the best courses in the world, has had a number of US Opens (is having another one in 2011) and now hosts the Tiger Tournament. And as mentioned above, the slots are limited by Bylaws so you have to wait for someone to leave/die to get in, and then many of those slots go to legacy members.

And as long as you have a friend that will sponsor you and find other references to put on your application, and assuming you can show you can pay your bills, you will undoubtedly get in if you are willing to wait. You also have to meet with at least one Board member before you are accepted, so I guess someone could come off as an asshole and get rejected. (I heard a story about an applicant who brought his wife who said something to the effect that she treated her housekeepers poorly and left the impression she would do the same to the Cong. employees; she was rejected b/c it is huge deal if a member treats the staff poorly, that is why most have been with the club for 10-20 years plus).

The story above about someone being rejected b/c they had a non-white adopted child would not have happened at Congressional, I am very confident of that. What a sad sad story; I would never want to be a member of such a club (if the story is even true; just to crazy to be true).

There are a number of minority members (not enough, to be sure). And certainly a huge mix of Catholic and Jewish members.

To the person interested in Kenwood, it is a fine club; I have lots of friends who absolutely love it. You should join it, particularly if you live near it (a huge factor in my opinion).

Maybe I am in denial. I would love for other Congressional members to weigh in if I am wrong . . .

Anonymous wrote:I know non-white members at Columbia, but Chevy Chase is lily white. No diversity at all.

Not quite sure this is true. I am not a member myself but have been invited a few times and have seen more than one African American family regularly enough for me to assume they are members though I cannot verify and of course I have never asked. One of them always comes up to the friends that invite us to say Hi.

Well someone needs to propose you and then you need a second. You could approach the one family you know and express your interest in Kenwood. See if they then offer to help you. If not, you are not in an very good position to gain membership (right now). I guess you just wait a while until you make more friends.

Anonymous wrote:Without a doubt Chevy is the top of the heap. Within the "country club set" it is the most prestigious and selective. Congressional is also very prestigious. Columbia not as much. Kenwood is easy to get into (minimal waitlist) so it doesn't have the prestige, but its a friendly and fun club with lots of really nice members. Truly, when you speak of the most prestgious in terms of country clubs, its mostly about how hard it is to get in and WHO gets in. Of course many of them restrict membership to certain types of people, that is pretty much the point of "country clubs" which are private and can admit and reject whom they choose. The in town clubs (Metropolitan, Cosmos, University, Sulgrave) are equally exclusive and restrictive of membership but in regards to different criteria. It is the world of private clubs, like it or not, and how they operate. Washington Golf and Country Club is for Arlingtonians and has little to no presence in Washington-proper's social scene but is THE big deal in Arlington. Bellhaven is the big one for those in Alexandria and that part of Virginia. Woodmont is mostly Jewish and for the Potomac crowd. Burning Tree is one of the few clubs left that does not admit women. Its for serious male golfers and is getting rather geriatric I hear (heh heh).

You really do not need to worry about this just because your child is in private school but that's the general and frank scoop on Washington's clubs.

We've heard great things about Kenwood and are interested in joining, but only know one member (and not that well). If you aren't friends with any members, how hard is it to join? Like what would you do if you were new to the area?

Anonymous wrote:Is that initiation fee ever redundable? Ie if you resign after a few years would you get re-imbursed if your membership was sold to another family?

No. That is not how it works at a true country club.

Is that initiation fee ever redundable? Ie if you resign after a few years would you get re-imbursed if your membership was sold to another family?

Without a doubt Chevy is the top of the heap. Within the "country club set" it is the most prestigious and selective. Congressional is also very prestigious. Columbia not as much. Kenwood is easy to get into (minimal waitlist) so it doesn't have the prestige, but its a friendly and fun club with lots of really nice members. Truly, when you speak of the most prestgious in terms of country clubs, its mostly about how hard it is to get in and WHO gets in. Of course many of them restrict membership to certain types of people, that is pretty much the point of "country clubs" which are private and can admit and reject whom they choose. The in town clubs (Metropolitan, Cosmos, University, Sulgrave) are equally exclusive and restrictive of membership but in regards to different criteria. It is the world of private clubs, like it or not, and how they operate. Washington Golf and Country Club is for Arlingtonians and has little to no presence in Washington-proper's social scene but is THE big deal in Arlington. Bellhaven is the big one for those in Alexandria and that part of Virginia. Woodmont is mostly Jewish and for the Potomac crowd. Burning Tree is one of the few clubs left that does not admit women. Its for serious male golfers and is getting rather geriatric I hear (heh heh).

You really do not need to worry about this just because your child is in private school but that's the general and frank scoop on Washington's clubs.

Anonymous wrote:

I know non-white members at Columbia, but Chevy Chase is lily white. No diversity at all.

And, they have a long history of excluding Jews as well, starting with land covenants and then less overtly and formally over the years.

This 'gentlemen's agreement' applied to most country clubs in the day...pp, what less overt ways to exclude Jews today are you suggesting?