Anonymous
09/02/2011 11:56
Subject: Male Privilege Checklist (S/O)
Anonymous wrote:TheManWithAUsername wrote:I don't get the point. Women have it worse than men? Duh.
I think I would have started with physical weakness, bleeding genitals, hormonal fluctuations, and the burdens of pregnancy and breastfeeding.
Holy Shit.
This is perhaps one of the most misogynist things I've ever read on the internet. And that's saying something.
So we are gross dirty hysterical harpies who can't lift heavy things.
Wow. Just wow.
Maniwth a Username, are you at all able to multitask? Do you call off sick when you have the sniffles? Do you realize not all women have PMS or have tough pregnancies or breastfeed?
Anonymous
09/02/2011 11:47
Subject: Male Privilege Checklist (S/O)
TheManWithAUsername wrote:I don't get the point. Women have it worse than men? Duh.
I think I would have started with physical weakness, bleeding genitals, hormonal fluctuations, and the burdens of pregnancy and breastfeeding.
Holy Shit.
This is perhaps one of the most misogynist things I've ever read on the internet. And that's saying something.
So we are gross dirty hysterical harpies who can't lift heavy things.
Wow. Just wow.
Anonymous
09/02/2011 11:38
Subject: Re:Male Privilege Checklist (S/O)
"Saying it's just a family's problem sucks, especially since so many families require two incomes these days, if for nothing else than health insurance. I'm not saying we should have extreme maternity leaves or anything, but things like supportive breastfeeding policies, more flexiblity when reasonable (and a lot of times it is reasonable, etc.) goes along way."
If you're valuable to your employer, you can get these things even if they aren't officially offered.
If you're valuable to your employer, you can get these things even if they aren't officially offered.
Anonymous
09/02/2011 11:35
Subject: Re:Male Privilege Checklist (S/O)
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:11:09, thank you. But it's a false dichotomy - it's not a drastic all or nothing choice. I left the high powered 60+ hours a week career when I got married so that I'd be in position to have kids, but not to SAH. I wanted a 40 or 45 hour a week job with limited travel so I could maintain it long term. I find it hard to believe that people don't realize that that type of job is hard to maintain once you have kids.
I guess I know too many law firm lawyers because for most of them, it was a pretty drastic all-or-nothing choice. They went from 60+ hours in the office to SAH.
Like I said, I left my big firm job before having kids, knowing was unsustainable. Law firm lawyers who don't acknowledge this are sticking their heads in the sand.
Anonymous
09/02/2011 11:31
Subject: Re:Male Privilege Checklist (S/O)
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:they will likely ask me for help because men may not be "safe". Need I go on? It sucks that men are always looked at with a skeptical eye. I don't think that's fair do you?
I can choose to SAH with my children and that is normal. DH chooses to do this and somehow that is weird.
I'm tired of people who say men and women should be treated equally, and then pick and choose where they want the equality. . Examples are: I call my DH an asshole. He calls me a bitch back. I can't whine and complain that he called me a bitch. I get pissed off at DH and push him away. He gets mad and pushes me. I call him an abuser.
People who go on and on about how women are treated unfairly always seem to turn a blind eye to the fact that men are also treated unfairly.
As for the people talking about poor women, there are actually more government programs and help available to women than men.
Can men sign up for WIC? That's just one.
Really? To help women, or to help single parents (most of whom happen to be women)?
Anonymous
09/02/2011 11:31
Subject: Male Privilege Checklist (S/O)
TheManWithAUsername wrote:Anonymous wrote:As for the men who "wish" that they could SAH or who think their wives are "lucky", I will believe that when men actually start taking advantage of paternity leave and bucking the trend.
You're switching the argument again. What started this was you criticizing women who consider themselves lucky. Whether their men or you or anyone else considers them lucky is a completely different question.
It's not for you - fine. I would be just as eager to defend you against a SAHM saying that you were too stupid to realize your misfortune.
BTW, my wife works, and she's sure that she would be miserable as a SAHM. If we could do it over again, though, we'd probably have me stay at home, at least until full-day school. I'd have no problem with that.
Re the other stuff with which you challenge men, that's just a bunch of generalizing. There are men who work for women's rights and for family friendly policies.
In any case, a lack of support for families isn't sexism. It's still a choice whether to have kids. If you don't want the career impact of having kids, don't have them or arrange beforehand for your mate to lead in childcare.
New Poster. Saying it's a choice to have kids and if you don't want the career impact then don't have them is absolute fucking bullshit. as someone who takes advantage of daycare at my husband's worksite, which couldn't be more high quality or convenient, as well as taking advantage of my husband's very flexible schedule (he works a lot but he can shape his hours a lot of the time), and as someone who worked four days a week when I had young kids, I can say companies do have choices. Saying it's just a family's problem sucks, especially since so many families require two incomes these days, if for nothing else than health insurance. I'm not saying we should have extreme maternity leaves or anything, but things like supportive breastfeeding policies, more flexiblity when reasonable (and a lot of times it is reasonable, etc.) goes along way. Successful companies have realized this, it's just time more got on board.
And the fact that a man's career benefits from his being a dad and the mom's plummets, yeah that is sexist.
Anonymous
09/02/2011 11:31
Subject: Re:Male Privilege Checklist (S/O)
This sounds like something out of a textbook and I can't take it seriously. Life, and people, are complex. I stayed home for five years and my SAHM friends and I all talked about how nice it would be to do something more flexible and PT for a while. I knew no one who just gave up their career and never looked back. And that's not sad, that is life, just like when I returned to work there were moments of looking back. That's perfectly normal, and very things in life are so black and white. For my circle it wasn't as simple and cliche as you lay out, at all. And there is a reason many women go back to work at some point. They often WANT to.
Are you seriously equating "it's a bummer that I didn't have a job that was flexible and would allow me to work part time, so I could craft my life exactly how I wanted it" with a woman who absolutely has to go back to work to help pay for food and shelter, and who often has to - has to - settle for substandard childcare from which you would recoil in horror so she can return to said job? That's ridiculous. Is anyone has the choice to stay home, that parent (man or woman) is lucky. In your situation, you had the luxury of figuring out what was more important to you, and doing it. The choice is the luxury.
And by the way, a non-flexible job that adversely impacts parenting and lifestyle is not a problem unique to women.
Anonymous
09/02/2011 11:31
Subject: Re:Male Privilege Checklist (S/O)
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:11:09, thank you. But it's a false dichotomy - it's not a drastic all or nothing choice. I left the high powered 60+ hours a week career when I got married so that I'd be in position to have kids, but not to SAH. I wanted a 40 or 45 hour a week job with limited travel so I could maintain it long term. I find it hard to believe that people don't realize that that type of job is hard to maintain once you have kids.
I guess I know too many law firm lawyers because for most of them, it was a pretty drastic all-or-nothing choice. They went from 60+ hours in the office to SAH.
Not the PP, but I'd say they didn't look at all of the alternatives. There is a LOT of jobs and family friendly employers in between.
Anonymous
09/02/2011 11:30
Subject: Re:Male Privilege Checklist (S/O)
Anonymous wrote:they will likely ask me for help because men may not be "safe". Need I go on? It sucks that men are always looked at with a skeptical eye. I don't think that's fair do you?
I can choose to SAH with my children and that is normal. DH chooses to do this and somehow that is weird.
I'm tired of people who say men and women should be treated equally, and then pick and choose where they want the equality. . Examples are: I call my DH an asshole. He calls me a bitch back. I can't whine and complain that he called me a bitch. I get pissed off at DH and push him away. He gets mad and pushes me. I call him an abuser.
People who go on and on about how women are treated unfairly always seem to turn a blind eye to the fact that men are also treated unfairly.
As for the people talking about poor women, there are actually more government programs and help available to women than men.
Really? To help women, or to help single parents (most of whom happen to be women)?
Anonymous
09/02/2011 11:29
Subject: Re:Male Privilege Checklist (S/O)
Anonymous wrote:11:09, thank you. But it's a false dichotomy - it's not a drastic all or nothing choice. I left the high powered 60+ hours a week career when I got married so that I'd be in position to have kids, but not to SAH. I wanted a 40 or 45 hour a week job with limited travel so I could maintain it long term. I find it hard to believe that people don't realize that that type of job is hard to maintain once you have kids.
I guess I know too many law firm lawyers because for most of them, it was a pretty drastic all-or-nothing choice. They went from 60+ hours in the office to SAH.
Anonymous
09/02/2011 11:24
Subject: Re:Male Privilege Checklist (S/O)
they will likely ask me for help because men may not be "safe". Need I go on? It sucks that men are always looked at with a skeptical eye. I don't think that's fair do you?
I can choose to SAH with my children and that is normal. DH chooses to do this and somehow that is weird.
I'm tired of people who say men and women should be treated equally, and then pick and choose where they want the equality. . Examples are: I call my DH an asshole. He calls me a bitch back. I can't whine and complain that he called me a bitch. I get pissed off at DH and push him away. He gets mad and pushes me. I call him an abuser.
People who go on and on about how women are treated unfairly always seem to turn a blind eye to the fact that men are also treated unfairly.
As for the people talking about poor women, there are actually more government programs and help available to women than men.
I can choose to SAH with my children and that is normal. DH chooses to do this and somehow that is weird.
I'm tired of people who say men and women should be treated equally, and then pick and choose where they want the equality. . Examples are: I call my DH an asshole. He calls me a bitch back. I can't whine and complain that he called me a bitch. I get pissed off at DH and push him away. He gets mad and pushes me. I call him an abuser.
People who go on and on about how women are treated unfairly always seem to turn a blind eye to the fact that men are also treated unfairly.
As for the people talking about poor women, there are actually more government programs and help available to women than men.
Anonymous
09/02/2011 11:23
Subject: Re:Male Privilege Checklist (S/O)
11:09, thank you. But it's a false dichotomy - it's not a drastic all or nothing choice. I left the high powered 60+ hours a week career when I got married so that I'd be in position to have kids, but not to SAH. I wanted a 40 or 45 hour a week job with limited travel so I could maintain it long term. I find it hard to believe that people don't realize that that type of job is hard to maintain once you have kids.
TheManWithAUsername
09/02/2011 11:14
Subject: Male Privilege Checklist (S/O)
Anonymous wrote:I didn't switch the argument. I was responding to 22:38 who claimed that "working" (presumably outside the home in a paid job) sucks.
You quoted "lucky," which is what started this whole thing.
Anonymous wrote:As for what you mean by "generalizing," I don't know what you mean. I stated my opinion of what I would like to see. I work in a male-dominated field, I can only name ONE man I know personally who took full advantage of stated paternity leave policy. I can name at least a dozen women, OTOH, who took full advantage of parental leave policies, and a half-dozen who quit their careers altogether.
Why did you mention it if not to suggest that men who think it's OK for women to stay at home don't do those things?
Anonymous wrote:Lack of support for families is sexism. Because the vast majority of people who end up giving up health insurance, retirement savings, and income to take care of children while they are young are WOMEN.
"End up" doing those things? You mean when they choose to have children and choose not to negotiate with their spouses to do the childcare. They're not struck pregnant.
There's no question that it's unfair in a cosmic sense that it's more burdensome for women to have children than for men to have them. On the whole, there's no question to me that women are screwed by nature relative to men. That doesn't make it sexist for others not to work to ameliorate the natural injustice.
What about the injustice of infertility? In your scenario, the infertile women will be discriminated against.
Anonymous wrote:Men have long been able to maintain their careers while having children, but women still struggle with this. Why do you think this is?!?
I'm not sure what you mean by "able to," and I suspect that you are trying to slip past a premise that women absolutely cannot maintain their careers, when in many cases they can. When they can't, it's because pregnancy and childbirth directly interfere with their careers, or because of illegal discrimination, of course. Sexist firings, etc. - i.e., those that have no rational basis - of course occur, and I'm not defending them.
Because I don't think there are many women who absolutely cannot maintain their careers, I'll instead answer the question of why women are much less likely to maintain them. For the following reasons, in no particular order:
- pregnancy, childbirth, and breastfeeding interfere with work
- for that reason, for simple sexism - i.e., irrational discrimination against women by a patriarchy - and because women are more interested in lower paying jobs,* women earn less, so it's a rational decision for the family for the man to continue working
- for multiple reasons, women are more interested in childcare than men are
* There's a feedback loop here that makes it hard to tease out the factors. Certain jobs likely pay less because they have traditionally been dominated by women.
Anonymous
09/02/2011 11:09
Subject: Re:Male Privilege Checklist (S/O)
Anonymous wrote:"The big problem is that professional women, a lot of lawyers and GS-15 gov't workers, make the drastic choice of all or nothing. I think that women should do more to fight for a more family-friendly workplace, but I also acknowledge that it's an uphill battle. "
I guess I'm just not sensitive to the nuances here. I've been a full time WOHM by choice for 12 years. Why is choosing to continue my career after giving birth a "drastic choice"? Most men do.
I'm not the poster you asked this question to. But I interpreted what she said to mean that of the women who are choosing to SAHM (and not the women who can't afford to because their HHI wouldn't enable them to pay for childcare), some in the DC area left very demanding careers, and the all or nothing "choice" was to choose between staying home or working 60+ hour weeks (since not all professions, including biglaw, government litigators, business execs etc. have valid PT or flexible options). And that is drastic - since they gave up a high-powered career to stay home.
I WOH, but my work can be done in 40-45 hours a week, and I did go to a reduced schedule until my second and last child was just over a year. To me, that was ideal, but not everyone has that choice either (and not everyone would take it if they did I suppose).
Anonymous
09/02/2011 10:59
Subject: Re:Male Privilege Checklist (S/O)
I just wish life had been happier for Chaz. He seems like very sad trombone.
