Anonymous
07/13/2011 23:57
Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:What if I am right? What if there is such a thing as Truth? What if another name for God is Truth? And Love? What if the closer you draw to your Creator, the more joyful life will be? Aren't these questions worth asking?
So God is natural law? Don't hold the other shoe PP, where did your journey lead you? I'm guessing Jehova's Witnesses. This is starting to sound like their spiel. I can't wait till you pull out the brochure where all the people and animals are all living peacefully together.
Anonymous
07/13/2011 23:53
Subject: Re:Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote: Is it even possible to believe in a higher power such as God and yet choose not to follow the Bible? Its been a big concern about my future children, and DH has pretty much left the decision up to me as he has no opinion
Of course it is, silly. To begin with, there are plenty of other religions that definitely believe in God and definitely don't use the Bible. As for the book itself (I presume you mean the new testament), keep in mind it was written long after the events of Jesus's life, and that it was not written by eyewitnesses to the events described. There are valuable things in the Bible, but there's also a lot of nonsense. I doubt god cares one way or the other if you "follow" the Bible.
Anonymous
07/13/2011 23:50
Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:OP continued (sorry so long...it is hard to condense something like this):
The step from disbelief to belief, from skepticism to faith, was a blend of everything that makes me human: intellect, emotion, psyche, will. One day, deep in the throes of existential angst, I said a skeptic's prayer: God, if you are there, if there is a Truth and you are that Truth, I want to know you. And I felt Loved. With a capital "L.".
This is a tiny glimpse into my faith--I simply cannot do it justice here. I would be happy to name particular writings, or to give more details, but for now, I just want to throw this out there, a DCUM wager, if you will:
What if I am right? What if there is such a thing as Truth? What if another name for God is Truth? And Love? What if the closer you draw to your Creator, the more joyful life will be? Aren't these questions worth asking?
PP here, and honestly not trying to be snarky, but.... What if I am right? What if there is no such thing as absolute truth, and truth does not equal god? What if my personal experience (including contact with religious friends) is that those who believe themselves closer to god are not more joyful/peaceful than those who do not?
Honestly, if that is your experience, I am happy for you. And I have no problem with the questions. But I feel pretty peaceful too, and I don't feel compelled to believe in god to justify my peace and happiness.
Anonymous
07/13/2011 23:46
Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Here's what I believe: I think consciousness is a property of the universe just like gravity, electricity, and the forces that hold atoms together. Human brains are to consciousness as a magnet is to the electromagnetic field. We have more of it, but everything has some of it. Is the universe itself conscious? I don't know but I think it probably is, and that's what you would call god.
Anonymous
07/13/2011 23:20
Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
OP continued (sorry so long...it is hard to condense something like this):
The step from disbelief to belief, from skepticism to faith, was a blend of everything that makes me human: intellect, emotion, psyche, will. One day, deep in the throes of existential angst, I said a skeptic's prayer: God, if you are there, if there is a Truth and you are that Truth, I want to know you. And I felt Loved. With a capital "L.".
This is a tiny glimpse into my faith--I simply cannot do it justice here. I would be happy to name particular writings, or to give more details, but for now, I just want to throw this out there, a DCUM wager, if you will:
What if I am right? What if there is such a thing as Truth? What if another name for God is Truth? And Love? What if the closer you draw to your Creator, the more joyful life will be? Aren't these questions worth asking?
The step from disbelief to belief, from skepticism to faith, was a blend of everything that makes me human: intellect, emotion, psyche, will. One day, deep in the throes of existential angst, I said a skeptic's prayer: God, if you are there, if there is a Truth and you are that Truth, I want to know you. And I felt Loved. With a capital "L.".
This is a tiny glimpse into my faith--I simply cannot do it justice here. I would be happy to name particular writings, or to give more details, but for now, I just want to throw this out there, a DCUM wager, if you will:
What if I am right? What if there is such a thing as Truth? What if another name for God is Truth? And Love? What if the closer you draw to your Creator, the more joyful life will be? Aren't these questions worth asking?
Anonymous
07/13/2011 23:20
Subject: Re:Why don't you believe in God?
I'm the pp with the grandmother story. Thank you to those posters who supplied a logical explanation, as I said it is something I've struggling. And I know I will get flamed for this, but I believe there is a distinction between believing in God and following the Bible. I do believe that people pick and choose what to follow in the Bible to go with their particular beliefs, and I also feel it contradicts itself in places. However, I have lived most of my life choosing to think there is a higher power and that has helped me through many difficult times. Is it even possible to believe in a higher power such as God and yet choose not to follow the Bible? Its been a big concern about my future children, and DH has pretty much left the decision up to me as he has no opinion
Anonymous
07/13/2011 23:08
Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
OP here to answer the opposite question: why do I believe in God?
First, because I can use my intellect to reason the likelihood that there is a God, a First Mover, an Uncaused Cause, a Necessary Being, an Absolute Standard of Perfection, a Designer (not my original ideas, of course). There are the arguments from conscience and universal belief and change and efficient causality and...all of these intellectual discussions are beyond the scope of DCUM, and have been espoused by much greater minds than mine. So I will stay with my personal story.
When I did not believe in God, I wrote an opinion column for my college paper. I wrote an article about interracial relationships. I argued there was nothing wrong with them. I was inundated with hate mail. I was astounded. Surely everyone knew racism was wrong?
But why is racism wrong? Who says? On whose authority? Many people have been racist. Racism has been found in pracially every human civilization ever. So what if I thought it was wrong? Wasnt that just my opinion? Don't we all just have our opinions, and nothing more?
That led to my intellectual pursuit, and I found satisfaction in natural law theory. My mind was satisfied. I knew. But I did not believe. I did not want to believe.
Why? Because if I simply acknowledged the logic, the data, then this information could be kept at arm's length. I could pull it out for deep conversations, and then put it away. In other words, I wanted to just stay on the journey, and not actually arrive anywhere, make any commitments. I wanted to be Socrates, just asking questions and turning over the answers. Somehow, if I did that, I could still do whatever I wanted. I could be free. I wanted that freedom.
The ultimate authority, the Author of natural law, was not something I wanted to submit to, because if I did, I would have to change my ways. I did not want to do that.
First, because I can use my intellect to reason the likelihood that there is a God, a First Mover, an Uncaused Cause, a Necessary Being, an Absolute Standard of Perfection, a Designer (not my original ideas, of course). There are the arguments from conscience and universal belief and change and efficient causality and...all of these intellectual discussions are beyond the scope of DCUM, and have been espoused by much greater minds than mine. So I will stay with my personal story.
When I did not believe in God, I wrote an opinion column for my college paper. I wrote an article about interracial relationships. I argued there was nothing wrong with them. I was inundated with hate mail. I was astounded. Surely everyone knew racism was wrong?
But why is racism wrong? Who says? On whose authority? Many people have been racist. Racism has been found in pracially every human civilization ever. So what if I thought it was wrong? Wasnt that just my opinion? Don't we all just have our opinions, and nothing more?
That led to my intellectual pursuit, and I found satisfaction in natural law theory. My mind was satisfied. I knew. But I did not believe. I did not want to believe.
Why? Because if I simply acknowledged the logic, the data, then this information could be kept at arm's length. I could pull it out for deep conversations, and then put it away. In other words, I wanted to just stay on the journey, and not actually arrive anywhere, make any commitments. I wanted to be Socrates, just asking questions and turning over the answers. Somehow, if I did that, I could still do whatever I wanted. I could be free. I wanted that freedom.
The ultimate authority, the Author of natural law, was not something I wanted to submit to, because if I did, I would have to change my ways. I did not want to do that.
Anonymous
07/13/2011 22:55
Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
The near death experience is an interesting one. I've experienced it, but was not near death. It was a traumatic incident.
The flashing-picture memories, feelings and indescribable peace are probably what a lot of people think "heaven" is like. I'd pay any amount of money to feel that again. It was like traveling through space and time.
The flashing-picture memories, feelings and indescribable peace are probably what a lot of people think "heaven" is like. I'd pay any amount of money to feel that again. It was like traveling through space and time.
Anonymous
07/13/2011 22:51
Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:I have been reading DCUM for a while now, and I feel steeped in broken marriages, angry/depressed/overwhelmed parents, misbehaving children, and general snarkiness. Almost never do I see a reference to a deep and profound faith, or even a thought about a Creator. I do see plenty of snide comments about faith being only for the stupid, the weak, the unthinking, but I can't recall a single specific reason as to why belief in a Creator is so obviously dumb.
So now is your chance: if you do not believe in God, why not? Have you wrestled with this question and constructed a tight argument, or do you just not particularly care?
I consider myself to be an atheist.
I was born into a Catholic family, although I never went to church, just CCD. Around 6th grade, I started to have doubts with what I felt I was being taught. Basically, it seemed that if I did something wrong, it was my fault. If I did something right, that was "God." Perhaps an oversimplification, but that was my take, and it didn't make sense to me.
The pro-choice/pro-life issue also alienated me from the church. I'm still not sure why my CCD teachers focused on that issue, but they did, and it was alienating.
I was struck by the Mormon post recently. My impression (which may be biased) was that many posters seemed to think the Mormon beliefs were ridiculous, but Christian beliefs were perfectly reasonable. Whether Christianity, Judaism, Scientology, or Mormonism, to me, it all seems the same. It requires a leap of faith I just can't make.
I 100% just do not believe Jesus is the son of "God." I just don't. And every time I am drawn to a church for a community experience, I can't reconcile this.
Also, I cannot believe that a god would be more concerned with where I am for an hour (or more) on Sunday vs. how I live my life. If he/she is, I guess I'm screwed.
My impression of religion is that it fills the void of what we don't yet understand. It keeps getting smaller. (Oh, that[i] part of the Bible is not literal.)
What I do wrestle with is that I believe that the community of a parish, when used for positive means, is a good thing. When I feel drawn to religion, it is always the "community" aspect that is appealing.
BTW, I'm very happy in my marriage, my kids do misbehave, but I think it is in the normal range of behavior.
Anonymous
07/13/2011 22:42
Subject: Re:Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It's funny...I have very mixed feelings about God. I grew up going to church every Sunday and was an altar server until I was 14. At that time, my aunt became very ill at the same time she suddenly lost her husband and my mom lost a lot of her faith. Therefore, so did I. However when I was 22, my grandmother passed away at our home. The day before she "died" she started crying and saying "they're all here". And "oh Billy you came". Now my uncle is named after his dad so we all assumed that was who she was talking about. However, my grandmother started sobbing and saying "she's so beautiful". My mom asked who and my grandmother answered the name of her daughter who had died 4 years ago. (Sorry I know this story is long). So I feel like I had a certain proof about the after life there, however I have a brother who is gay and struggle with the fact that God could create that amazing "light" for my grandmother, and yet not accept my brother. Sorry for the rant, it is my own personal struggle I suppose[/quote]
I knew it, somebody had to bring in the whole "gay issue" in this conversation.Common folks the bible is VERY CLEAR.
Sorry meant to say "Come on folks"
PP, that is a callous response to a heartfelt and genuine concern. And we had been doing so well, relatively. Please, decorum.
Anonymous
07/13/2011 22:39
Subject: Re:Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:It's funny...I have very mixed feelings about God. I grew up going to church every Sunday and was an altar server until I was 14. At that time, my aunt became very ill at the same time she suddenly lost her husband and my mom lost a lot of her faith. Therefore, so did I. However when I was 22, my grandmother passed away at our home. The day before she "died" she started crying and saying "they're all here". And "oh Billy you came". Now my uncle is named after his dad so we all assumed that was who she was talking about. However, my grandmother started sobbing and saying "she's so beautiful". My mom asked who and my grandmother answered the name of her daughter who had died 4 years ago. (Sorry I know this story is long). So I feel like I had a certain proof about the after life there, however I have a brother who is gay and struggle with the fact that God could create that amazing "light" for my grandmother, and yet not accept my brother. Sorry for the rant, it is my own personal struggle I suppose
Lovely story about your grandmother, but it could be explained in other ways. Her mind/body may have known it was the end and so naturally that's where her thoughts were. My dying grandmother talked about looking forward to seeing the child she lost at 1 year and her husband but she was very religious and so would have been thinking about these things. As an atheist I'm sure I'll be thinking about all the people I have loved and lost in my last few hours but unfortunately it won't be in a 'they're here' or 'can't wait to see them' way. It would be nice, I guess.
Anonymous
07/13/2011 22:38
Subject: Re:Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It's funny...I have very mixed feelings about God. I grew up going to church every Sunday and was an altar server until I was 14. At that time, my aunt became very ill at the same time she suddenly lost her husband and my mom lost a lot of her faith. Therefore, so did I. However when I was 22, my grandmother passed away at our home. The day before she "died" she started crying and saying "they're all here". And "oh Billy you came". Now my uncle is named after his dad so we all assumed that was who she was talking about. However, my grandmother started sobbing and saying "she's so beautiful". My mom asked who and my grandmother answered the name of her daughter who had died 4 years ago. (Sorry I know this story is long). So I feel like I had a certain proof about the after life there, however I have a brother who is gay and struggle with the fact that God could create that amazing "light" for my grandmother, and yet not accept my brother. Sorry for the rant, it is my own personal struggle I suppose[/quote]
I knew it, somebody had to bring in the whole "gay issue" in this conversation.Common folks the bible is VERY CLEAR.
Why is gay issue in quotations? Are you implying that it's not an issue? What does the bible say?
Anonymous
07/13/2011 22:37
Subject: Re:Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It's funny...I have very mixed feelings about God. I grew up going to church every Sunday and was an altar server until I was 14. At that time, my aunt became very ill at the same time she suddenly lost her husband and my mom lost a lot of her faith. Therefore, so did I. However when I was 22, my grandmother passed away at our home. The day before she "died" she started crying and saying "they're all here". And "oh Billy you came". Now my uncle is named after his dad so we all assumed that was who she was talking about. However, my grandmother started sobbing and saying "she's so beautiful". My mom asked who and my grandmother answered the name of her daughter who had died 4 years ago. (Sorry I know this story is long). So I feel like I had a certain proof about the after life there, however I have a brother who is gay and struggle with the fact that God could create that amazing "light" for my grandmother, and yet not accept my brother. Sorry for the rant, it is my own personal struggle I suppose[/quote]
I knew it, somebody had to bring in the whole "gay issue" in this conversation.Common folks the bible is VERY CLEAR.
Sorry meant to say "Come on folks"
Anonymous
07/13/2011 22:36
Subject: Re:Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:It's funny...I have very mixed feelings about God. I grew up going to church every Sunday and was an altar server until I was 14. At that time, my aunt became very ill at the same time she suddenly lost her husband and my mom lost a lot of her faith. Therefore, so did I. However when I was 22, my grandmother passed away at our home. The day before she "died" she started crying and saying "they're all here". And "oh Billy you came". Now my uncle is named after his dad so we all assumed that was who she was talking about. However, my grandmother started sobbing and saying "she's so beautiful". My mom asked who and my grandmother answered the name of her daughter who had died 4 years ago. (Sorry I know this story is long). So I feel like I had a certain proof about the after life there, however I have a brother who is gay and struggle with the fact that God could create that amazing "light" for my grandmother, and yet not accept my brother. Sorry for the rant, it is my own personal struggle I suppose[/quote]
I knew it, somebody had to bring in the whole "gay issue" in this conversation.Common folks the bible is VERY CLEAR.
Anonymous
07/13/2011 22:28
Subject: Re:Why don't you believe in God?
It's funny...I have very mixed feelings about God. I grew up going to church every Sunday and was an altar server until I was 14. At that time, my aunt became very ill at the same time she suddenly lost her husband and my mom lost a lot of her faith. Therefore, so did I. However when I was 22, my grandmother passed away at our home. The day before she "died" she started crying and saying "they're all here". And "oh Billy you came". Now my uncle is named after his dad so we all assumed that was who she was talking about. However, my grandmother started sobbing and saying "she's so beautiful". My mom asked who and my grandmother answered the name of her daughter who had died 4 years ago. (Sorry I know this story is long). So I feel like I had a certain proof about the after life there, however I have a brother who is gay and struggle with the fact that God could create that amazing "light" for my grandmother, and yet not accept my brother. Sorry for the rant, it is my own personal struggle I suppose