Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Alarmed by rising failure and remediation rates, professors argue that test-blind policies obscure preparation gaps, leading vulnerable students to struggle in rigorous gateway courses.

https://ucstudentsuccess.org/

That's great news and much needed. Wish they had done so before this year. We're in-state and my DS wanted to go to a UC (he would have gone to any out of his top 4-5 choices). He has a 1550 but wasn't able to submit it because of test-blind. He did not get into any of his top 5 UC choices (he was guaranteed a UC since he was in in the top 9% of CA HS seniors by GPA, but only got into UC Riverside and UC Santa Cruz, which aren't great for his intended major). He is going to a private (to a so-called "new ivy") but we're frustrated by UC's test-blind policy and hearing how they have needed to create remedial sections for math at UC San Diego (where my DS didn't get in despite a 790 in math on the SAT and A in AP calculus). We are happy that it might get better for others.

Are you from an upper middle class area? If so, you likely still would have the same issue due to regional admission. UCs aren’t really made to be solely elite kids. That’s what private schools, like the ones your kid is going to, are for.

Actually, they are supposed to be for the academically elite. Community college, Cal State system, UC System, flagship of the UC system. This isn't a regional thing. It is a high school dependent thing. However so few blacks and Hispanics would be selected for UC Berkeley that UC's look at the HIGH SCHOOL instead of the general applicant pool.

Except opportunity isn’t equal across the state. You’d eliminate any poor person or individual born in a rural area from having a top education.

I think this is part of the political problem in California. There’s a lot of rural whites who don’t understand this yet, because they think whites are always superior, but who if admissions tests come back are going to be displeased to learn that the top UCs are effectively closed to rural whites.

This is a canard. There are not that many rural whites living in California. Rural students in California make up less than 10% of public school students. Of that 10% the majority are Hispanic. But keep up with your anti-white crusade if that makes you feel better.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Alarmed by rising failure and remediation rates, professors argue that test-blind policies obscure preparation gaps, leading vulnerable students to struggle in rigorous gateway courses.

https://ucstudentsuccess.org/

That's great news and much needed. Wish they had done so before this year. We're in-state and my DS wanted to go to a UC (he would have gone to any out of his top 4-5 choices). He has a 1550 but wasn't able to submit it because of test-blind. He did not get into any of his top 5 UC choices (he was guaranteed a UC since he was in in the top 9% of CA HS seniors by GPA, but only got into UC Riverside and UC Santa Cruz, which aren't great for his intended major). He is going to a private (to a so-called "new ivy") but we're frustrated by UC's test-blind policy and hearing how they have needed to create remedial sections for math at UC San Diego (where my DS didn't get in despite a 790 in math on the SAT and A in AP calculus). We are happy that it might get better for others.

Are you from an upper middle class area? If so, you likely still would have the same issue due to regional admission. UCs aren’t really made to be solely elite kids. That’s what private schools, like the ones your kid is going to, are for.

Actually, they are supposed to be for the academically elite. Community college, Cal State system, UC System, flagship of the UC system. This isn't a regional thing. It is a high school dependent thing. However so few blacks and Hispanics would be selected for UC Berkeley that UC's look at the HIGH SCHOOL instead of the general applicant pool.

Except opportunity isn’t equal across the state. You’d eliminate any poor person or individual born in a rural area from having a top education.

I think this is part of the political problem in California. There’s a lot of rural whites who don’t understand this yet, because they think whites are always superior, but who if admissions tests come back are going to be displeased to learn that the top UCs are effectively closed to rural whites.

Anonymous wrote:How has no one made a more comprehensive exam than the sat?

The dirty little secret- no standardized test, even holding for income, no matters its flavor, exists that will not reveal racial gaps. PSAT, MCAT, ACT, AP, LSAT, GRE, NNAT, CogAT, GMAT, USMLE, OAT and on and on.

It's not that California doesn't want a standardized test; it only want one that yields demographically equal performances.

Anonymous wrote:We're in a moderately competitive public school in southern California, and the math instruction has been very very frustrating. The integrated math system puts you on a super accelerated path or just the regular path. There's no in between, which would be perfect for our kids. Our oldest survived and is headed to HYP. We've learned to navigate the horrible curriculum and crossing fingers it works out for our younger DCs. But I am deeply disappointed that my oldest is turned off by math, even if he's pursuing a major that has nothing to do with math.

Bay Area poster here, same here. Both kids are strong at math, though only one is pursuing STEM. We also found IM really ridiculous. I also can see how kids graduate with no math skills. In DD’s IM3 class the majority of the grade was homework and quizzes. Quizzes were group quizzes. The teacher made a point of making sure a math smart kid was in each group. The other kids would just let the smart kid do all the problems. Homework was never checked, just stamped that you had it. Tests were made up of the exact same questions on the group quizzes, retakes available and same test for afternoon classes or make ups so basically designed to support cheating. AP Calc and Statistics were basically a full year of test prep, nothing more. Most (all) of the successful, high stat kids at our school either learn at home on their own using online resources or a parent, take DE courses during the summer or do Russian math.

CA tried to pull IM out awhile ago but school districts didn’t want to replace their materials. It truly is Frankenmath designed to inflate grades and deflate skills.

Math is the only subject that has this massive genius expectation. It’s the only subject where people are constantly trying to push students to the maximum and accelerate them. Imagine how much better our country would be if we put 1/10th of this energy into science education.

We're in a moderately competitive public school in southern California, and the math instruction has been very very frustrating. The integrated math system puts you on a super accelerated path or just the regular path. There's no in between, which would be perfect for our kids. Our oldest survived and is headed to HYP. We've learned to navigate the horrible curriculum and crossing fingers it works out for our younger DCs. But I am deeply disappointed that my oldest is turned off by math, even if he's pursuing a major that has nothing to do with math.

How has no one made a more comprehensive exam than the sat?

They need to evaluate not just Math, but EBRW as well. Reading comprehension is declining too.

Anonymous wrote:Don't worry. While the UC's banned the used of the SAT, they still accept AP exam scores for admission purposes...with this caveat:

https://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/admission-requirements/ap-exam-credits/ap-credits/

"Students should be aware AP test scores lower than 3 will not adversely affect their chances for admission."

The UC's are a joke.

Insanity.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"For example, for three consecutive year, 20-30% of UC Berkeley first-semester calculus students who participated in mathematical diagnostic testing displayed severe[u] preparation deficits."

Ouch.

How is this going to be fixed by SAT scores if it is the HS math instruction that sucks?

Most likely by admitting fewer unprepared students. Right now UC's admit by high school. The lower SES, URM high schools have the same admissions chances as high performing ones. Presumably the SAT will provide cover to deviate from this and pick more Asian and white students.

This sounds like a lot of extrapolation. The professors aren’t interested in picking and choosing demographics for their classes. They just want students entering Calc 2 who have actually taken and performed, as expected by exams, well in calc 1. Berkeley has an institutional mission to give opportunity to a wide population of California residents, not just the Bay Area and SoCal elites.

What’s really happening is professors do not have the levers necessary to improve the k-12 system, so the only tool they do have is the one standardized exam.

Unfortunately California produces so few well-qualified black and Hispanic students in California public high schools that while the SAT might give them a better, fighting chance, at selecting a decent student, it will never be implemented. The cry of help from faculty and isn't just from the math faculty, it's across all STEM disciplines. This endeavor will run into the inevitable political brick wall and go nowhere. The mission of UC's officially states that Diversity, Equity and Inclusion is the critical component underlying scholarship and research. The UC's will not stray from that mission.

The UC system is a testament that DEI doesn’t have to mean lowering standards, the issue people have is purely political issues from the k-12 system. The UC system is all about DEI, but still most of the professors are white, most of the students are white and Asian, and the rigor is real.

In general, black students are way over talked about in these discussions. California has been bleeding out black families for decades. A lot of the issues stem with Latino majority districts. There’s a whole host of issues unique to that demographic seen across the American southwest

Not true. There are far more Hispanic students than white students. UC's are trying to get Hispanic undergraduate enrollment up to 53%. So far they are up to 30% with increases every year. They have that as the official policy: UC's are to reflect the demographics of the state.

The UC system SHOULD be more hispanic, and over time, it naturally will be. The massive gaps between white and Latino citizens is mostly due to immigration. These gaps are much smaller once you account for higher generational households.

SAT data says otherwise. Hispanics across all income and generational (first, second, third) levels perform worse than the poorest whites and Asians.

Says more about the SAT than anything else. [b]Life outcomes show that the gap closes.

What does this mean? That Hispanics earn comparable to whites and Asians? That doesn't sound true. Care to clarify or cite what you're talking about?

Income gap decreases if you look across generations rather than examining as a single cohort.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Alarmed by rising failure and remediation rates, professors argue that test-blind policies obscure preparation gaps, leading vulnerable students to struggle in rigorous gateway courses.

https://ucstudentsuccess.org/

That's great news and much needed. Wish they had done so before this year. We're in-state and my DS wanted to go to a UC (he would have gone to any out of his top 4-5 choices). He has a 1550 but wasn't able to submit it because of test-blind. He did not get into any of his top 5 UC choices (he was guaranteed a UC since he was in in the top 9% of CA HS seniors by GPA, but only got into UC Riverside and UC Santa Cruz, which aren't great for his intended major). He is going to a private (to a so-called "new ivy") but we're frustrated by UC's test-blind policy and hearing how they have needed to create remedial sections for math at UC San Diego (where my DS didn't get in despite a 790 in math on the SAT and A in AP calculus). We are happy that it might get better for others.

Are you from an upper middle class area? If so, you likely still would have the same issue due to regional admission. UCs aren’t really made to be solely elite kids. That’s what private schools, like the ones your kid is going to, are for.

Actually, they are supposed to be for the academically elite. Community college, Cal State system, UC System, flagship of the UC system. This isn't a regional thing. It is a high school dependent thing. However so few blacks and Hispanics would be selected for UC Berkeley that UC's look at the HIGH SCHOOL instead of the general applicant pool.

Except opportunity isn’t equal across the state. You’d eliminate any poor person or individual born in a rural area from having a top education.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"For example, for three consecutive year, 20-30% of UC Berkeley first-semester calculus students who participated in mathematical diagnostic testing displayed severe[u] preparation deficits."

Ouch.

How is this going to be fixed by SAT scores if it is the HS math instruction that sucks?

Most likely by admitting fewer unprepared students. Right now UC's admit by high school. The lower SES, URM high schools have the same admissions chances as high performing ones. Presumably the SAT will provide cover to deviate from this and pick more Asian and white students.

This sounds like a lot of extrapolation. The professors aren’t interested in picking and choosing demographics for their classes. They just want students entering Calc 2 who have actually taken and performed, as expected by exams, well in calc 1. Berkeley has an institutional mission to give opportunity to a wide population of California residents, not just the Bay Area and SoCal elites.

What’s really happening is professors do not have the levers necessary to improve the k-12 system, so the only tool they do have is the one standardized exam.

Unfortunately California produces so few well-qualified black and Hispanic students in California public high schools that while the SAT might give them a better, fighting chance, at selecting a decent student, it will never be implemented. The cry of help from faculty and isn't just from the math faculty, it's across all STEM disciplines. This endeavor will run into the inevitable political brick wall and go nowhere. The mission of UC's officially states that Diversity, Equity and Inclusion is the critical component underlying scholarship and research. The UC's will not stray from that mission.

The UC system is a testament that DEI doesn’t have to mean lowering standards, the issue people have is purely political issues from the k-12 system. The UC system is all about DEI, but still most of the professors are white, most of the students are white and Asian, and the rigor is real.

In general, black students are way over talked about in these discussions. California has been bleeding out black families for decades. A lot of the issues stem with Latino majority districts. There’s a whole host of issues unique to that demographic seen across the American southwest

Not true. There are far more Hispanic students than white students. UC's are trying to get Hispanic undergraduate enrollment up to 53%. So far they are up to 30% with increases every year. They have that as the official policy: UC's are to reflect the demographics of the state.

The UC system SHOULD be more hispanic, and over time, it naturally will be. The massive gaps between white and Latino citizens is mostly due to immigration. These gaps are much smaller once you account for higher generational households.

SAT data says otherwise. Hispanics across all income and generational (first, second, third) levels perform worse than the poorest whites and Asians.

Says more about the SAT than anything else. [b]Life outcomes show that the gap closes.

What does this mean? That Hispanics earn comparable to whites and Asians? That doesn't sound true. Care to clarify or cite what you're talking about?

UC's are clever. Proposition 209 states that race is not supposed to be used in admissions. If you are from an upper middle class high school and are Hispanic FROM THAT HIGH SCHOOL you have zero advantage in being Hispanic.

If you are in a Hispanic high school, now your advantage become real. You do not need the same qualifications as the Hispanic from the upper middle class high school (or white or Asian). UC will simply select a proportional number from that high school.

The problem the UC's are finding out is that there are too few high performing Hispanics at these high schools and so they are getting mediocre students. The SAT gave them some ability to cull through a representative Hispanic high school but with that tool gone you are seeing accelerated degradation.

For those wondering, Black students are only 5% of California's public school students. This debate revolves around Hispanic students.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Alarmed by rising failure and remediation rates, professors argue that test-blind policies obscure preparation gaps, leading vulnerable students to struggle in rigorous gateway courses.

https://ucstudentsuccess.org/

That's great news and much needed. Wish they had done so before this year. We're in-state and my DS wanted to go to a UC (he would have gone to any out of his top 4-5 choices). He has a 1550 but wasn't able to submit it because of test-blind. He did not get into any of his top 5 UC choices (he was guaranteed a UC since he was in in the top 9% of CA HS seniors by GPA, but only got into UC Riverside and UC Santa Cruz, which aren't great for his intended major). He is going to a private (to a so-called "new ivy") but we're frustrated by UC's test-blind policy and hearing how they have needed to create remedial sections for math at UC San Diego (where my DS didn't get in despite a 790 in math on the SAT and A in AP calculus). We are happy that it might get better for others.

Are you from an upper middle class area? If so, you likely still would have the same issue due to regional admission. UCs aren’t really made to be solely elite kids. That’s what private schools, like the ones your kid is going to, are for.

Actually, they are supposed to be for the academically elite. Community college, Cal State system, UC System, flagship of the UC system. This isn't a regional thing. It is a high school dependent thing. However so few blacks and Hispanics would be selected for UC Berkeley that UC's look at the HIGH SCHOOL instead of the general applicant pool.

UT has a mission of educating the best Texans and we still have the top 6% policy for geographical diversity. Why would you bake inequality into your system?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Alarmed by rising failure and remediation rates, professors argue that test-blind policies obscure preparation gaps, leading vulnerable students to struggle in rigorous gateway courses.

https://ucstudentsuccess.org/

That's great news and much needed. Wish they had done so before this year. We're in-state and my DS wanted to go to a UC (he would have gone to any out of his top 4-5 choices). He has a 1550 but wasn't able to submit it because of test-blind. He did not get into any of his top 5 UC choices (he was guaranteed a UC since he was in in the top 9% of CA HS seniors by GPA, but only got into UC Riverside and UC Santa Cruz, which aren't great for his intended major). He is going to a private (to a so-called "new ivy") but we're frustrated by UC's test-blind policy and hearing how they have needed to create remedial sections for math at UC San Diego (where my DS didn't get in despite a 790 in math on the SAT and A in AP calculus). We are happy that it might get better for others.

Are you from an upper middle class area? If so, you likely still would have the same issue due to regional admission. UCs aren’t really made to be solely elite kids. That’s what private schools, like the ones your kid is going to, are for.

Yes, we're from the SF Bay area. It's tough to apply to UCs from our region. I would have been ok with DS being rejected if they'd at least have looked at his SAT and read his teacher recommendations.