Anonymous wrote:I went to stay with my sister for a week to help out as she just had her second child. I don’t have any kids yet, but honestly it seemed like her life is hellish. As is a lot of my friends in the same phase of life. They have high friction relationships with their partners, are trying to juggle too much on their own, and are squeezed financially.

It made me wonder if there’s something wrong with how we do the family thing America. Is there a better way? Or is this just life for a lot people with kids?

To expand on what I wrote in the prior comment, OP's response to visiting her sister *right after she gave birth to a second baby* is like visiting your friend literally during the bar exam and deciding that being a lawyer "sucks."

Family life doesn't suck. Having a newborn and a toddler absolutely can suck, especially if your child free sister is in the house watching you and thinking "omg this look miserable." It's like one of the most stressful snapshots in what is a multi-decade endeavor. Go visit your sister when they've found their routines and rhythms with the new baby and there are long stretches of snuggling with little ones at bed time while they hold you with their little hands, or seeing who can make the most convincing fart noise during a road trip, or watching your kid actually read for the first time, or listening to them tell you all about the great day they had at camp, or teaching them to ride a bike, or watching them make a really good friend, or watching them fall in love, or any of the thousands of moments of parenting that just make your heart explode with joy.

It's just frankly childish to think "oh this looks hard right now, ugh I will never do it" when the thing you are talking about is so much larger than any one moment.

Anonymous wrote:I think part of the problem is that as we become more economically stable, there is the expectation that you will hire help instead of rely on friends and neighbors. Some people are lucky that they have supportive families (good for you for helping out your sister), some of us are not so lucky. But beyond family, it would seem odd these days to just ask a neighbor or even a good friend to randomly babysit for free. In the old days, kids could just play together in the neighborhood, and whichever parent was around would take them in and not think too much of it. People helped each other out more.

I don't think it's only the expectation of hiring help, I think it's also that "whichever parent was around" started to be only 1 or 2 parents and it got old that no one else was willing to step in.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Good grief. Don’t want kids, that’s fine but some of you need to call your therapist. Sorry but you sound miserable.
Life with kids can be difficult but if it is all the time, it is a you problem(exception for those with SN children- you have valid reason to complain). Just take care of what is in front of you.
I worked FT with 3 DC. It was just not that hard. Well, did I get to the gym, no. Read a book, no. Watch an adult movie in 12 years, no. But I did that through my twenties and no, mid fifties, I can go back to doing whatever I want. Putting DC before me for ~ 1/4 of my life makes me enjoy what I have now.”

Don’t have kids if it is not for you, but there are trade offs in life and I love the village I am
In.

There are so many posts like this right now I think these are trolls.

Imagine not going to the gym or reading a book for decades but thinking it’s ok. Lady you have lose standards and are more proof how awful it is to have kids.

Stop dramatizing. I ran on a trail pushing a stroller. Then I ran alongside my DC riding a bike. Then I played tennis and soccer with them at the park. I read storybooks cuddled up together in bed. I played with dolls or built Legos in lieu of movies. It is a trade off, but a better one IMO.
And now- we all go to the gym and adult movies together.

Martyr mommy is in the house!

DP and genuinely curious. How is that poster being a martyr? She is guilty of being extremely active but I just do not see martyr here at all

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Good grief. Don’t want kids, that’s fine but some of you need to call your therapist. Sorry but you sound miserable.
Life with kids can be difficult but if it is all the time, it is a you problem(exception for those with SN children- you have valid reason to complain). Just take care of what is in front of you.
I worked FT with 3 DC. It was just not that hard. Well, did I get to the gym, no. Read a book, no. Watch an adult movie in 12 years, no. But I did that through my twenties and no, mid fifties, I can go back to doing whatever I want. Putting DC before me for ~ 1/4 of my life makes me enjoy what I have now.”

Don’t have kids if it is not for you, but there are trade offs in life and I love the village I am
In.

There are so many posts like this right now I think these are trolls.

Imagine not going to the gym or reading a book for decades but thinking it’s ok. Lady you have lose standards and are more proof how awful it is to have kids.

Stop dramatizing. I ran on a trail pushing a stroller. Then I ran alongside my DC riding a bike. Then I played tennis and soccer with them at the park. I read storybooks cuddled up together in bed. I played with dolls or built Legos in lieu of movies. It is a trade off, but a better one IMO.
And now- we all go to the gym and adult movies together.

Martyr mommy is in the house!

This is NOT the reason I had kids but now as an administrator at an assisted living facility, I see the value in having children as one reaches the final years of their lives. It is heartbreaking to see my residents who are so alone at such a scary time of life. I actively try to pay them more attention, or instruct my staff to do so, but it is hardly the same.

Yes, there are no guarantees that your relationship with your children will be one where they care after you in your final years, but I can guarantee you that the residents who do not have children are alone.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to stay with my sister for a week to help out as she just had her second child. I don’t have any kids yet, but honestly it seemed like her life is hellish. As is a lot of my friends in the same phase of life. They have high friction relationships with their partners, are trying to juggle too much on their own, and are squeezed financially.

It made me wonder if there’s something wrong with how we do the family thing America. Is there a better way? Or is this just life for a lot people with kids?

IMHO - basically something is very wrong with America. But, it has been wrong for a long, long time. The basic unit of society - family - is broken for everybody. No one is having a good time. Not the kids, not the mom and not even the dad. Elderly grandparents are also in a limbo though they may also share some blame for being hedonistic aholes when they were parenting.

Karma is kicking your backside - in a big way. Young people should not have kids. You should look after yourself and live a small and frugal life.

I agree with this. It’s deeply embedded in our culture and policy. We don’t have legislation that requires employers to give paid parental leave. FMLA is only three months and no pay is required. We don’t fund preschool. We don’t have adequate mental health supports. The list goes on and on.

Grandparents, at least in my situation, have not been interested at all in lightening the mental load or even being around us at all. They love to post pictures of their extensive international travel though. It’s heartbreaking.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Good grief. Don’t want kids, that’s fine but some of you need to call your therapist. Sorry but you sound miserable.
Life with kids can be difficult but if it is all the time, it is a you problem(exception for those with SN children- you have valid reason to complain). Just take care of what is in front of you.
I worked FT with 3 DC. It was just not that hard. Well, did I get to the gym, no. Read a book, no. Watch an adult movie in 12 years, no. But I did that through my twenties and no, mid fifties, I can go back to doing whatever I want. Putting DC before me for ~ 1/4 of my life makes me enjoy what I have now.”

Don’t have kids if it is not for you, but there are trade offs in life and I love the village I am
In.

There are so many posts like this right now I think these are trolls.

Seriously. People often say “I didn’t realize it was this hard,” to which I ask, “what the heck did you think it was going to be like?”

I have been blessed with healthy, smart, well behaved children (which is a result mainly of them not being special needs, and maybe a sprinkling of decent parenting). Has it been time consuming? Yes. Is it a limited amount of time in my life? Also yes. Are they fun and amazing? You can’t even imagine!

I mean, I just wrote upthread that I find family life to be my greatest joy, but I also think it's okay for people to say "I didn't realize it was this hard."

Some of the early years with young, totally dependent children can be really rough. Acknowledging that does not invalidate the decision to have children, it's just an acknowledgment that it's hard. Lots of amazing things are hard. Building a really fulfilling career is also incredibly hard at time, should you not do that? Every single doctor had periods of med school or residency that were incredibly trying, do they all regret it? Building any kind of relationship with anyone has difficulties, in fact working through difficulties is part of what can make a relationship truly rewarding. Surviving cancer or another health crisis is exhausting and hard but obviously worth it.

So YES having kids can be really hard at times. Pretending otherwise is disingenuous. But the idea that because a family has some tough days, especially when kids are not even school age yet, is not a compelling reason to not have kids, unless you are someone who simply never wants to do anything deeply fulfilling or meaningful in your life, in which case I feel bad for you.

The newborn and toddler years are really hard. And we live in a society with few family support policies (daycare costs a lot, housing costs a lot, maternity leave is typically unpaid).

These are some reasons the birth rate is falling.

For me, parenthood has been wonderful and so worth it for the love and fulfillment. There have been a lot of hard days. But the joy and beauty outweigh them.

Anonymous wrote:OP, on the off chance that you actually are looking for ways to enjoy having a family, my advice is to be very picky who you marry/have children with and have a lot of money. If you have family the can and want to help like some PPs, great, if not, money solves that.

+100
This is the big, most critical piece of the puzzle right here!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree that the early years are HARD but now with my two children -- 1 college aged and one just-graduated college -- it is pretty sweet. Sure, there are significant costs involved at this phase, but these two kids of ours are developing into amazing young adults and it is a privilege to have front row seats. Yes, there are prior years of "hard" but the long-term payoff is better than I had imagined.

Yeah, but it doesn't always work out this way. My stepson is in college and is having significant mental health / failure to launch issues. His older brother graduated and now spends all day in his childhood bedroom sleeping and playing video games. Both are super smart but have ADHD etc and got very mixed grades and have trouble finding work.

With all due respect, that these two are your step kids may be part of the issue. Broken homes sometimes lead to broken children for years to come. People can debate that for all of time but the deep wounds done to children when they have no say or control do not disappear once things settle.

OP, on the off chance that you actually are looking for ways to enjoy having a family, my advice is to be very picky who you marry/have children with and have a lot of money. If you have family the can and want to help like some PPs, great, if not, money solves that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The early years are just hard. We lived in the same metro area as our parents and had a nanny rather than daycare. Both made it easier than it would have been otherwise. When the kids were 5 and 2 we moved to be within walking distance on my parents. It’s been nice. There have been seasons when we didn’t need hired childcare because of living so close and our kids have a deeper relationship with grandparents rather than a babysitter who they don’t keep in touch with. As an example, when my younger kid was in upper ES my mom would come by and spend 30-45 min with kid most mornings after I had to leave and before the ES bus came. It wasn’t burdensome for my mom and kid appreciated company but didn’t need much care. Now my parents drive my kid to activities 2 days/week after school. We never had them do full-time preschool or baby care, but it’s still made a huge difference to our family to be close by. It’s a much more enjoyable way to live IMO

I agree this sounds great but it requires several circumstances:

- Your parents are healthy and interested in participating (not struggling with health issues or determined to spend their retirement travelling or socializing instead of helping you)
- You could afford a nanny when kids were younger
- Your parents live somewhere that has job opportunities for you and your spouse and where school options are at least minimally acceptable
- You could afford a home within walking distance of your parents (and your parents live in a neighborhood walkable enough to facilitate walking between houses).

Like, yes, your set up sounds great but the number of young families who can do that is actually very small.

Agreed. But OP was asking if it’s inherently awful or if there are ways to make it manageable or even enjoyable in this country/area. Examples of what that looks like might be helpful. Doesn’t mean everyone can do it that way.

Also, there are lots of benefits to having children later in life, but active, engaged, helpful grandparents is more likely to be possible with shorter generational intervals. My brother’s kids are about 7 years younger than mine, and my parents have been less able to help them. Bro and SIL also value staying in the city, so while my parents are close enough to babysit for a date night, they’re not really close enough to pop by every morning for 30 min. My mom was 58 when my oldest was born. As my parents have become less able caregivers my kids have gotten older and need less intensive care. Even 5 years later would have been a different experience, as I’ve seen first hand with my bro and his kids.

Have you heard about audio books ? You can listen at 1.5 speed

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Good grief. Don’t want kids, that’s fine but some of you need to call your therapist. Sorry but you sound miserable.
Life with kids can be difficult but if it is all the time, it is a you problem(exception for those with SN children- you have valid reason to complain). Just take care of what is in front of you.
I worked FT with 3 DC. It was just not that hard. Well, did I get to the gym, no. Read a book, no. Watch an adult movie in 12 years, no. But I did that through my twenties and no, mid fifties, I can go back to doing whatever I want. Putting DC before me for ~ 1/4 of my life makes me enjoy what I have now.”

Don’t have kids if it is not for you, but there are trade offs in life and I love the village I am
In.

There are so many posts like this right now I think these are trolls.

Imagine not going to the gym or reading a book for decades but thinking it’s ok. Lady you have lose standards and are more proof how awful it is to have kids.

Stop dramatizing. I ran on a trail pushing a stroller. Then I ran alongside my DC riding a bike. Then I played tennis and soccer with them at the park. I read storybooks cuddled up together in bed. I played with dolls or built Legos in lieu of movies. It is a trade off, but a better one IMO.
And now- we all go to the gym and adult movies together.

Anonymous wrote:Good grief. Don’t want kids, that’s fine but some of you need to call your therapist. Sorry but you sound miserable.
Life with kids can be difficult but if it is all the time, it is a you problem(exception for those with SN children- you have valid reason to complain). Just take care of what is in front of you.
I worked FT with 3 DC. It was just not that hard. Well, did I get to the gym, no. Read a book, no. Watch an adult movie in 12 years, no. But I did that through my twenties and no, mid fifties, I can go back to doing whatever I want. Putting DC before me for ~ 1/4 of my life makes me enjoy what I have now.”

Don’t have kids if it is not for you, but there are trade offs in life and I love the village I am
In.

There are so many posts like this right now I think these are trolls.

Seriously. People often say “I didn’t realize it was this hard,” to which I ask, “what the heck did you think it was going to be like?”

I have been blessed with healthy, smart, well behaved children (which is a result mainly of them not being special needs, and maybe a sprinkling of decent parenting). Has it been time consuming? Yes. Is it a limited amount of time in my life? Also yes. Are they fun and amazing? You can’t even imagine!