Anonymous wrote:The difference in the facilities budget does feel unfair (DCPS school renovations are funded through the Capital Budget and DGS, while charters have limited funding through the schools budget, which is why we see these insane renovations for DCPS schools but charter schools feel more modest.)

Lol insane renovations? Have you gotten to fight with central office just to ensure there are enough bathrooms in the new building? I promise DCPS schools not in Ward 3 are not getting crazy futuristic renovations. They're not even getting unique spaces. They just have a base design they tweak. And DCPS schools can't just up and move when DGS fails go provide safe spaces.

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Anonymous wrote:The idea was that charters wanted to be separate, to have autonomy, and were willing to give up certain economies of scale in order to do so. But it often feels like they want separateness when it serves them and not when it doesn't. And they can't have it both ways.

We'd save millions of dollars each year if we shut down a few low-performing charters. The kids could go to nearby schools that are not any worse. Then everyone can have a raise.

It really, really grates on me that they are constantly hating on the WTU but when the WTU does all the work (and takes the political blowback) to obtain a pay increase, charters show up with their hands out.

This is all nonsense (and curiously maudlin). This was never "the idea." Charter schools were authorized by Congress because DCPS was seen as a failure. Congress wanted to give families in DC a choice between the two systems. People have been voting with their feet, and charters have been stealing market share from DCPS for decades. It's only a matter of time before most kids in this city go to charters, again because parents think it's the better option for their kids. Given that, it makes no sense for the city to actively discriminate against children whose families made a choice Congress said they were free to make. Obviously, all kids should have an equal educational opportunity.

Oh FFS, it is not "only a matter of time". And one reason for that is that the PCSB does NOT WANT A MAJORITY SHARE of the seats! And they have said so! Because then they might have to have-- gasp-- more responsibility for the system as a whole!

If you go back decades, sure there's been an increase. But overall charter market share has plateaued in the mid-40s more recently. And if you don't include adult ed and only look at PK3-12, the charter share is smaller. It's been 45% since the 2017-2018 school year. If was 42% in the 2013-2014 school year. https://edscape.dc.gov/page/trends-enrollment-sector So I really do not know why you continually repeat this prediction.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The idea was that charters wanted to be separate, to have autonomy, and were willing to give up certain economies of scale in order to do so. But it often feels like they want separateness when it serves them and not when it doesn't. And they can't have it both ways.

We'd save millions of dollars each year if we shut down a few low-performing charters. The kids could go to nearby schools that are not any worse. Then everyone can have a raise.

It really, really grates on me that they are constantly hating on the WTU but when the WTU does all the work (and takes the political blowback) to obtain a pay increase, charters show up with their hands out.

This is all nonsense (and curiously maudlin). This was never "the idea." Charter schools were authorized by Congress because DCPS was seen as a failure. Congress wanted to give families in DC a choice between the two systems. People have been voting with their feet, and charters have been stealing market share from DCPS for decades. It's only a matter of time before most kids in this city go to charters, again because parents think it's the better option for their kids. Given that, it makes no sense for the city to actively discriminate against children whose families made a choice Congress said they were free to make. Obviously, all kids should have an equal educational opportunity.

Your argument makes no sense. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Ultimately charters are businesses as well, raise money. Add more at risk students. A typical title 1 school has triple or more than MV.

You are also free to choose a charter. No one is taking that right. There is no law to fund it exactly like DCPS because charters do not have to follow the same rules.

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Anonymous wrote:DCPS is stuck with its buildings for the long term and has to plan for long term needs and deal with long term maintenance and compliance in 100+ year old buildings. It was a huge struggle for our school just to get the bathrooms made non-awful. GDS takes forever to fix anything. Being part of a larger system has really significant down sides.

Have you been inside Yu Ying, or the new Latin Cooper building? They're as nice as any, certainly way nicer than our Ward 5 Title I.

And of course, why invest in charter buildings when everyone, including the PCSB, is saying the sector is going to contract?

Yes, those buildings are nice--and cost the schools specifcally money to build.

Have you been the Lafayette Elementary? Dorothy Heights? Both absolutely stunning.

Seen the giant project that Whittier is getting for their temporary campus during their remodel? Millions and millions of dollars so those kids don't have to ride a bus to a flex space.

DCPS schools are getting tons spent on their remodels.

To add to your list: Burroughs and Bunker Hill too. Swing space is great. Remodel for Burroughs looks amazing.

And Brookland Middle might not be a great school, but it’s got a lovely building.

The new remodels are amazing. Those kids deserve those better buildings. If you've been here in DC a while, you know just how bad the buildings were (and in some places still are). The charter kids deserve decent facilities too. The people who hate charters (most who don't even have kids in schools) have made the issues into DCPS versus charters. When it should be here's what it takes to educate kids adequately and then make it fair across DCPS and charters.

Well, it's a question of what's "fair" when one part of the system has to take kids all year and guarantee enough space in perpetuity, and the other side doesn't have to do that or care about that at all.

Yep and they can innovate as they please while DCPS schools have to beg to get outside of their box.

Anonymous wrote:The idea was that charters wanted to be separate, to have autonomy, and were willing to give up certain economies of scale in order to do so. But it often feels like they want separateness when it serves them and not when it doesn't. And they can't have it both ways.

We'd save millions of dollars each year if we shut down a few low-performing charters. The kids could go to nearby schools that are not any worse. Then everyone can have a raise.

It really, really grates on me that they are constantly hating on the WTU but when the WTU does all the work (and takes the political blowback) to obtain a pay increase, charters show up with their hands out.

This is all nonsense (and curiously maudlin). This was never "the idea." Charter schools were authorized by Congress because DCPS was seen as a failure. Congress wanted to give families in DC a choice between the two systems. People have been voting with their feet, and charters have been stealing market share from DCPS for decades. It's only a matter of time before most kids in this city go to charters, again because parents think it's the better option for their kids. Given that, it makes no sense for the city to actively discriminate against children whose families made a choice Congress said they were free to make. Obviously, all kids should have an equal educational opportunity.

Anonymous wrote:I see, I thought that was Strong Start. I agree then that Early Stages does need additional funding then for the additional roles they play, specifically evaluating kids who are not in DCPS and providing early PK.

Early Stages is the evaluator for preschool kids within DCPS though, and charters do have to pay for preschool evaluations through a portion of their per pupil funds. If Early Stages is partially funded by per pupil money and then gets extra funding for extra services, that is perfectly fair.

I am not convinced about moving tens of millions of DCPS facilities funding outside of the per pupil formula though.

Honestly I'm fine with it. This stuff is maddeningly complex for a lay person and it's hard to understand what's "fair". But it's important to remember that DCPS schools don't have individual control over their locations. If their building is too big, they can't choose to move to something smaller or in a cheaper neighborhood like a charter can. If their building is old and in poor condition, they have to wait years for renovation and meanwhile put up with how difficult it is to get DGS to make any small improvements. Charters can decide locations and renovations according to their own needs, but DCPS makes those decisions at the Chancellor level based on the needs of the entire school system, not what's in the best interest of the school being renovated. And DCPS thinks in terms of long-term enrollment projections, like 10 or 20 or even 30 years in the future. Also, DCPS boundaries can change and schools don't have much control over it. So basically, DCPS building decision-making is not done by each school, it's driven by larger forces, and the current number of pupils at a DCPS school is only one factor among many. So to try and force it into a per-pupil funding model and pretend like each school gets to make their own choices doesn't really make sense for DCPS.

If charters were willing to engage in long-term co-planning with DCPS and accept some loss of autonomy over enrollment choices, building capacity, and location, then maybe a different system would make sense for them too.

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Anonymous wrote:DCPS is stuck with its buildings for the long term and has to plan for long term needs and deal with long term maintenance and compliance in 100+ year old buildings. It was a huge struggle for our school just to get the bathrooms made non-awful. GDS takes forever to fix anything. Being part of a larger system has really significant down sides.

Have you been inside Yu Ying, or the new Latin Cooper building? They're as nice as any, certainly way nicer than our Ward 5 Title I.

And of course, why invest in charter buildings when everyone, including the PCSB, is saying the sector is going to contract?

Yes, those buildings are nice--and cost the schools specifcally money to build.

Have you been the Lafayette Elementary? Dorothy Heights? Both absolutely stunning.

Seen the giant project that Whittier is getting for their temporary campus during their remodel? Millions and millions of dollars so those kids don't have to ride a bus to a flex space.

DCPS schools are getting tons spent on their remodels.

Just looking at it from the sidewalk, it seems a little nuts this is the plan.

The parents in the neighborhood pushing it were so annoying. Some of them didn’t even have kids on the school yet. Would have been so much simpler to just bus the kids.

+1 I drive past the space they're building for Whittier almost daily. It's wild that the city agreed to wreck/occupy the public park space and spend all those millions to build a temporary swing space rather than bus the kids to a brick and mortar, perfectly fine building a couple miles away. I heard they're going to tear it right back down when Whittier is done with it too and that (unlike Burroughs) it won't be used for additional schools.

Agree it boils down to politics...the JLG/our Ward 4 Councilmember pushed hard for the temporary swing space and got lots of credit when it went Whittier's way.

Other schools, including Maury and Coolidge, had temporary swing spaces built for them while their school was being renovated. Many of these schools need a multi-year renovation because they’re in such bad shape. Whittier has dealt with radiator pipes bursting in (thankfully empty!) classrooms.
I don’t blame parents who don’t want to deal with DCPS bussing. Getting transportation for field trips is a nightmare. DCPS can’t even handle transportation for the SPED students who need it everyday.

The idea was that charters wanted to be separate, to have autonomy, and were willing to give up certain economies of scale in order to do so. But it often feels like they want separateness when it serves them and not when it doesn't. And they can't have it both ways.

We'd save millions of dollars each year if we shut down a few low-performing charters. The kids could go to nearby schools that are not any worse. Then everyone can have a raise.

It really, really grates on me that they are constantly hating on the WTU but when the WTU does all the work (and takes the political blowback) to obtain a pay increase, charters show up with their hands out.

I see, I thought that was Strong Start. I agree then that Early Stages does need additional funding then for the additional roles they play, specifically evaluating kids who are not in DCPS and providing early PK.

Early Stages is the evaluator for preschool kids within DCPS though, and charters do have to pay for preschool evaluations through a portion of their per pupil funds. If Early Stages is partially funded by per pupil money and then gets extra funding for extra services, that is perfectly fair.

I am not convinced about moving tens of millions of DCPS facilities funding outside of the per pupil formula though.

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The difference in the facilities budget does feel unfair (DCPS school renovations are funded through the Capital Budget and DGS, while charters have limited funding through the schools budget, which is why we see these insane renovations for DCPS schools but charter schools feel more modest.)

Only a handful of DCPS schools have gotten "insane renovations," and those were politically driven.

Most DCPS buildings suck, and when they do get renovated, it is at minimal quality. Then they don't get maintained.

You want to rely on DGS for your facilities? We'd be happy to trade places on that one.

Not even close to accurate. Full lost here. https://dgs.dc.gov/dgs-projects/completed-dgs-school-projects. Including...
Benjamin Banneker Academic HS (2021)
Duke Ellington School of the Arts (2017)
Roosevelt High School (2016)
Coolidge High School (2019)
Bard High School Early College DC (2023)
MacArthur High School (2023)
Eliot-Hine Middle School (2020)
MacFarland Middle School (2018)
Marie Reed Elementary/Education Campus (2017)
Alice Deal Middle School (2022)
Bancroft Elementary (2018)
Eaton Elementary (2022)
Lafayette Elementary (2016)
Murch Elementary (2018)
Van Ness Elementary (2015-2017)
Maury Elementary (2019)
Kimball Elementary (2020)
Garfield Elementary (2024)
Smothers Elementary (2023)
J.O. Wilson Elementary (2026)
Tubman Elementary (2026)
Malcolm X @ Green Elementary (2026)
Thomas Elementary (2027-8)

Um. Yeah, there are a lot of schools and, at some point, they all need renovation.

As I stated in the post you responded to, most renovations are very minimal on costs.

A handful of schools have had fancy renovations that are hard to understand based on enrollment numbers. But most of the list above? Very necessary, thrifty renovations.

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Anonymous wrote:Yu Ying teacher salary scale goes from $61,000 to $96,000. Mundo Verde’s is $60,000 to $90,000. If they are supplementing with fundraising, it is still not getting them close to DCPS salaries, $71,000-$147,000 next year.

Yeah, Latin's teacher salary scale is a painful $56 to $80. Shameful, actually. Not sure why that's not a bigger black mark against them.

A handful of charters do come closer to DCPS pay scale - BASIS ($64-$118), Haynes ($66-$111), Cap City ($66-126).

Teacher salaries at DCPS are kinda bananas, given the school year is only 180 days and given how bad the school system generally is. There are art teachers who make $140,000, which is more than some art professors at Georgetown make.

Well.. one could argue being an art teacher in DCPS is significantly more stressful and emotionally demanding than being an art professor at Georgetown 🙃

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Anonymous wrote:Oh yeah, this was the Rhee thing, right? Up salaries but make it easy to fire and throw in a really poor evaluation system to back both.

No, these are base salaries that are fought and won by the Union. The evaluation system and bonuses were a Rhee thing, teachers can make way more than this with bonuses. Those bonuses are funded outside of the per pupil funding formula.

I see the argument for charter schools here. Charters can’t afford to pay high salaries because they have to pay rent, don’t get the extra funding for bonuses, I don’t know what else. And now they have to use their per pupil funding formula for basic utilities, renovations, and facilities while DCPS spends it just on salaries that keep going higher and higher. Taxpayers have to fund the general fund in addition to the per pupil funding to pay for DCPS facilities, utilities, etc. Also, Early Stages does not serve charter students. Charter schools have to fund their early childhood special education programs through per pupil funding as well.

https://www.earlystagesdc.org

You need to understand how this works. Early Stages is a separate program run by DCPS. It evaluates kids aged 2-5 (ish) for special needs, if those kids are not currently enrolled in a DCPS or charter school. Qualifying children can receive services through this program even if they aren't old enough for PK3. Charters do not run any evaluations or do services for kids younger than school age that I'm aware of. That is why charters don't get funding to do this.

I'm not sure this is still true, but it used to be that there are seats reserved in DCPS preschool classrooms for kids who have special needs and aren't old enough to start PK3. As soon as a qualifying child turns 3, they can potentially have one of those reserved seats, do a partial year of PK3, and then do a full year of PK3 with their age cohort. So basically it's a way to give kids a little extra preschool. Again, I'm not aware of any charters that do this. So when DCPS schools get money for doing this, it's different than the usual UPSFF special needs funding. Charters have to fund their early childhood programs through UPSFF for their own preschool students, yes, but they do NOT have to serve anyone who is not of proper PK3 age, and they do NOT have to give anyone more than 1 year of PK3. So that is why DCPS gets Early Stages funding-- because DCPS is doing things that charters don't do.

Fixed quoting.

Anonymous wrote:Oh yeah, this was the Rhee thing, right? Up salaries but make it easy to fire and throw in a really poor evaluation system to back both.

No, these are base salaries that are fought and won by the Union. The evaluation system and bonuses were a Rhee thing, teachers can make way more than this with bonuses. Those bonuses are funded outside of the per pupil funding formula.

I see the argument for charter schools here. Charters can’t afford to pay high salaries because they have to pay rent, don’t get the extra funding for bonuses, I don’t know what else. And now they have to use their per pupil funding formula for basic utilities, renovations, and facilities while DCPS spends it just on salaries that keep going higher and higher. Taxpayers have to fund the general fund in addition to the per pupil funding to pay for DCPS facilities, utilities, etc. Also, Early Stages does not serve charter students. Charter schools have to fund their early childhood special education programs through per pupil funding as well.