Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DH and I were "golden" children who went to the best schools, made money, became famous in our respective fields. Our first child is off the charts brilliant but ASD, aggressive and has numerous health problems. His childhood has been something that most DCUM parents (and I say "most" because *thank you* SN forum and there is a huge spectrum on this board) have never dreamed of. I make my living being clever and an out of the box thinker but nothing has compared to trying to help DS. He will always lead a different life. And DH and I have a second child who is not such an outlier but as we have "parenting on hard mode" (shall I say expert mode, honestly?) it is a challenge to balance it all and be human.

I have lots of first-world problems in my professional life, but I have been reading DCUM for 10+ years. I simply and more and more amazed and how lucky people are with their children. May you never need to visit a psychiatric hospital for your elementary school aged child. And may you never judge me for having to have had to do so. May you never have to worry that your child who weights 35 lbs could hurt someone and fear sending them to school.

It's been a hard road, but I'm delighted to be the Ivy professor who gives your child the guidance to make it to the next level. It's what's keeping me sane in my own personal fate, which, cruel as it seems often, is nothing like that of parents watching their children die of cancer. There are no guarantees on this Earth.

And to those of you who are still quick to judge in middle age, all I can say is that probably haven't learned much. I hope you have spent the spare time the world has given you without life sh*tting on you on some pretty seriously good work for the world. Tell us about eradicating Polio or a poem you wrote that kept a political prisoner alive or a nursing home population that finds new meaning. Or a rainforest you are saving or documenting or both. Because otherwise please do not talk to me unless it is to offer to take DS for care for a week. (I am fine if you are just chilling, or life has dealt you shitty cards, but if you are judging me, come prepared to play on karma and metaphysics front or stay home.) I'm still trying to cure cancer, but some weeks it is hard with a child who threatens to kill you when asked to do his homework.

Thanks OP for this topic.

Op here. The friends I was thinking of when I posted are brilliant and successful in every way possible except parenting. I’m not judging them. I sympathize as I watch my friend struggle. The friend is kind and one of the smartest people I have ever encountered. All three of her children are difficult. I spend a lot of time with this family and the kids are always fighting, not in a normal way but look like they want to kill one another.

Anonymous wrote:DH and I were "golden" children who went to the best schools, made money, became famous in our respective fields. Our first child is off the charts brilliant but ASD, aggressive and has numerous health problems. His childhood has been something that most DCUM parents (and I say "most" because *thank you* SN forum and there is a huge spectrum on this board) have never dreamed of. I make my living being clever and an out of the box thinker but nothing has compared to trying to help DS. He will always lead a different life. And DH and I have a second child who is not such an outlier but as we have "parenting on hard mode" (shall I say expert mode, honestly?) it is a challenge to balance it all and be human.

I have lots of first-world problems in my professional life, but I have been reading DCUM for 10+ years. I simply and more and more amazed and how lucky people are with their children. May you never need to visit a psychiatric hospital for your elementary school aged child. And may you never judge me for having to have had to do so. May you never have to worry that your child who weights 35 lbs could hurt someone and fear sending them to school.

It's been a hard road, but I'm delighted to be the Ivy professor who gives your child the guidance to make it to the next level. It's what's keeping me sane in my own personal fate, which, cruel as it seems often, is nothing like that of parents watching their children die of cancer. There are no guarantees on this Earth.

And to those of you who are still quick to judge in middle age, all I can say is that probably haven't learned much. I hope you have spent the spare time the world has given you without life sh*tting on you on some pretty seriously good work for the world. Tell us about eradicating Polio or a poem you wrote that kept a political prisoner alive or a nursing home population that finds new meaning. Or a rainforest you are saving or documenting or both. Because otherwise please do not talk to me unless it is to offer to take DS for care for a week. (I am fine if you are just chilling, or life has dealt you shitty cards, but if you are judging me, come prepared to play on karma and metaphysics front or stay home.) I'm still trying to cure cancer, but some weeks it is hard with a child who threatens to kill you when asked to do his homework.

Thanks OP for this topic.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:both. But I have noticed it usually takes until 3 kids+ for parents to realize "for real" it's not them. Parents of 2 or 1 kid have an outblown sense of their impact esp. if they don't have a harder to parent kid.

This. Parenting does play a role, but some kids are just difficult and problematic. Mothers with 3+ kids all know this. If you have at least 3 kids, chances are high at least one of them is more difficult than the others. While they may not be a total train wreck, it definitely enforces that how you kids behave and turn out isn’t all because of your parenting and influence.

You have this backwards. Parenting plays the biggest role in the kids who are "difficult and problematic." That's the difference between very good parents and mediocre or bad parents.

Most parents can raise an easy kid with few challenges. The key there is just not to screw it up (which even some parents can't manage). But you don't have to *work* that hard at it if the kid is just kind of naturally flexible and easy going with no special needs or learning challenges.

But some kids have real challenges and then parents have to work at it, and it's hard. And if you do it well, the kids with challenges can be great. If you do it poorly, it can in fact be a total train wreck. The job is harder and not everyone is up to the task. And this is what people are talking about when they say they thought they understood what it meant to be a good parent, and then had an additional kid who had more challenges. That's when you *really* find out what it is to be a good parent, when you realize the level of patience, emotional maturity, creativity, dedication, and faith it takes to to raise some kids to adulthood.

When I encounter a parent who says "oh parenting can only do so much, so kids are just problematic," that's when I know I've encountered a parent who just isn't up to the task.

Some kids are difficult and problematic no matter how good the parenting is. What you end up seeing is “the best” that kid can be. It may seem pretty bad to you as an outsider, but it could be so much worse with poor parents.

One of my good friends has a very difficult kid. They work so hard for him: therapy, parenting support, psychological treatment, on top of his school work. He still gets in a lot of trouble and isn’t passing all his classes. I have no doubt without such dedicated parents he would be a drug addict and in juvy or jail right now.

I really appreciate this. My kids are great kids but have a couple really significant struggles. One has a pretty limited diet despite YEARS of feeding therapy, working out butts off to do everything “right”. And sometimes it’s discouraging that we can’t go to many restaurants and I still have a lot of worries about how their social life will be affected by this. But they are a healthy weight with no nutritional deficiencies and have a food in every food group. I’m in some groups of children who have the same eating issues (ARFID) and it helps me realize these are huge wins. Many of those parents are also trying their best- they are posting and gathering ideas and trying all sorts of things. It’s just a good reminder to have some perspective- I hope the years of interventions HAVE made a difference! We will never really know. But I do know before we got professional help we were definitely making things worse for this child by trying to do the things that worked for us as typical eaters growing up. So I think we easily could have continued down the path of making things worse instead of better.

Anonymous wrote:I was the quintessential "good as gold" kid, a joy to teach, mature for my age and all that. My mother was so proud that we were (in her own words) "terrified" of my father, who would berate us mercilessly, call us names, mock us and scream at her, particularly when he was drunk,which was often.

From the outside, what people saw were EXTREMELY well-behaved kids, perfectly dressed, straight A's. My parents were literally invited by our Catholic church to help teach the marriage preparation class because they supposedly had such a great marriage.

You literally never know what kind of dysfunction is taking place in someone else's home, and lots of kids can overperform academically as a type of compensation ("If I get straight A's, maybe I won't get attacked and mocked.") The idea that everyone who turns out well has "great parents" is patently false. And I suspect the opposite is probably equally true.

I had a lot to work through when I had kids -- since what I had learned was that all that matters is the final product. It doesn't matter how you get those perfect kids, as long as you get them, right? Part of me literally believed it was probably okay to make up mean nicknames for our kids as long as it got them to perform. If you were lucky enough to grow up in a functional home with mature parents, you have a huge step up in life, but don't assume everyone has that.

Anonymous wrote:I would never have imagined in my life that my kids would be special needs, and they inherited the family curses from DH. Throughout the process, we found out that DH & his direct family all have undiagnosed autism and adhd, but they all masked so well to the point that I would never think of it. DH does not understand why I am mad at him most of the time, and I try to be a superman to be working full time, taking care of kids and helping my kids to get friendship, work on their challenges and helping them to act and talk like other kids.

Other families may put their efforts on discipline, good habits, excellance, and manner. I have to prioritize my kid needs on making them to eat ( feeding therapies for early years) to gain weight even though other families may not understand why I feed them junk food. They all have sensory eating disorder, and they gag and vomit if I force them to eat sometimes. Other families may not understand why I do not host playdates, why I have to keep them busy by signing up all these activities to gain certain skills etc.. My kids are high functioning, but they struggle with basic social cues. If my kids are normal , I would love to shift my energy and effort to raise a smart & well behaved kids. I spent a few thousands over 5 years on one kid, and he still cannot swim well. DH can swim and capable to do many things, he can find many reasons to tell me that why he cannot even teach him for once. He is not a good dad or a husband, and I learn that I either have to suck it up to do it or no one would do anything for my kids. They are nice kids, but they just need more love and more effort to achieve some normal goals.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's nature and nurture. I also think sometimes parents are well suited to their kids natural personalities and other times not, and when there is conflict, it can all go wrong.

But I also think that people who are more flexible and adaptable tend to make better parents in general, because this enables them to be the parent their kids need. Then you don't have to just get lucky with kids suited to your personality, because you have the skills to make it work with any kids.

I completely agree with this. I am rather rigid by nature, and belatedly realized that my kids are the worse for it. They're good people - they're all young adults now and they're law-abiding and kind -- but the oldest is struggling with his mental health (recent college grad, no FT job, worried about the future of the US), middle is inattentive ADHD and underemployed. I think if I had modeled more flexibility and adaptability for them, they would be struggling less.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot of kids have bad luck in the parenting department, OP. Their parents are a big disappointment.

I was once with one of these kids who was acting up and slapped mom and said profanities. My friend’s daughter was with us and she said my mom would kill me if I spoke to her that way. I didn’t say it but I also thought this girl deserved a good beating, a beating so bad that she would never act that way again. Other parents and I just watched in disbelief. The girl was 11 or so.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:both. But I have noticed it usually takes until 3 kids+ for parents to realize "for real" it's not them. Parents of 2 or 1 kid have an outblown sense of their impact esp. if they don't have a harder to parent kid.

This. Parenting does play a role, but some kids are just difficult and problematic. Mothers with 3+ kids all know this. If you have at least 3 kids, chances are high at least one of them is more difficult than the others. While they may not be a total train wreck, it definitely enforces that how you kids behave and turn out isn’t all because of your parenting and influence.

You have this backwards. Parenting plays the biggest role in the kids who are "difficult and problematic." That's the difference between very good parents and mediocre or bad parents.

Most parents can raise an easy kid with few challenges. The key there is just not to screw it up (which even some parents can't manage). But you don't have to *work* that hard at it if the kid is just kind of naturally flexible and easy going with no special needs or learning challenges.

But some kids have real challenges and then parents have to work at it, and it's hard. And if you do it well, the kids with challenges can be great. If you do it poorly, it can in fact be a total train wreck. The job is harder and not everyone is up to the task. And this is what people are talking about when they say they thought they understood what it meant to be a good parent, and then had an additional kid who had more challenges. That's when you *really* find out what it is to be a good parent, when you realize the level of patience, emotional maturity, creativity, dedication, and faith it takes to to raise some kids to adulthood.

When I encounter a parent who says "oh parenting can only do so much, so kids are just problematic," that's when I know I've encountered a parent who just isn't up to the task.

Some kids are difficult and problematic no matter how good the parenting is. What you end up seeing is “the best” that kid can be. It may seem pretty bad to you as an outsider, but it could be so much worse with poor parents.

One of my good friends has a very difficult kid. They work so hard for him: therapy, parenting support, psychological treatment, on top of his school work. He still gets in a lot of trouble and isn’t passing all his classes. I have no doubt without such dedicated parents he would be a drug addict and in juvy or jail right now.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:both. But I have noticed it usually takes until 3 kids+ for parents to realize "for real" it's not them. Parents of 2 or 1 kid have an outblown sense of their impact esp. if they don't have a harder to parent kid.

This. Parenting does play a role, but some kids are just difficult and problematic. Mothers with 3+ kids all know this. If you have at least 3 kids, chances are high at least one of them is more difficult than the others. While they may not be a total train wreck, it definitely enforces that how you kids behave and turn out isn’t all because of your parenting and influence.

You have this backwards. Parenting plays the biggest role in the kids who are "difficult and problematic." That's the difference between very good parents and mediocre or bad parents.

Most parents can raise an easy kid with few challenges. The key there is just not to screw it up (which even some parents can't manage). But you don't have to *work* that hard at it if the kid is just kind of naturally flexible and easy going with no special needs or learning challenges.

But some kids have real challenges and then parents have to work at it, and it's hard. And if you do it well, the kids with challenges can be great. If you do it poorly, it can in fact be a total train wreck. The job is harder and not everyone is up to the task. And this is what people are talking about when they say they thought they understood what it meant to be a good parent, and then had an additional kid who had more challenges. That's when you *really* find out what it is to be a good parent, when you realize the level of patience, emotional maturity, creativity, dedication, and faith it takes to to raise some kids to adulthood.

When I encounter a parent who says "oh parenting can only do so much, so kids are just problematic," that's when I know I've encountered a parent who just isn't up to the task.

I especially think this is true if there are special needs. We know a single mom with a daughter who seems like she is on the spectrum but not diagnosed. Mom is always yelling at her saying how embarrassing the child is. With proper therapy, the girl could be high functioning.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:4 kids. All good, even great. But man my husband and I have worked hard. And we have put in time. Nature trumps but we see it as our job to nurture them to be good citizens. I'm glad it hasn't been super easy so I have appreciation for the end result. Last one is in college. And as we come to the end of our parenting job we enjoy spending time with them so we feel "successful".

It’s a huge job indeed even if you parent the easiest kids on earth congrats

Anonymous wrote:I don't think easy kids necessarily make for successful adults, so I wouldn't judge too soon. I know I was a kid who challenged authority constantly and was not an easy personality. But I've become a very successful adult who now challenges authority by litigating. As an attorney it's made me quite successful and I enjoy it. With a professional outlet for that aspect of my personality, I have successful relationships with my husband and kids.

I know a lot of easy kids who it became directionless adults when they didn't have anyone telling them what to do anymore. They floundered and have really struggled as adults.

Anonymous wrote:There will always be debate about nature vs nurture. Genetics are rarely destiny for behavior, but it does happen. Psychopaths and sociopaths do exist. Having parented a couple of kids, I've come across one or two. It's very rare. But you can tell they aren't right regardless of parental intervention.

But I'd say the bigger problem is shitty parents begetting shitty children.

Anonymous wrote:I think nobody on this thread has considered the effect that other environments that the child is placed into from a young age (like school) have a massive effect on what a person turns out like. Peer pressure is massively influential. Children who are around mean, cliquish peers will be more likely to become mean and cliquish themselves. Children who are around peers who frequently lie may develop the habit of lying themselves. I could go on and on.