Anonymous wrote:OP I am not in these estrangement wars but I read your whole post and I have no idea what you want.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm guessing they have no idea because they were usually never "trying" to hurt you so they don't get it when you were hurt. In their own minds, they were "doing their best" and no one's perfect etc.

I have had tastes of it over time. Like the time I told my 14 yo son in the car that no he could not miss his hockey game to take a girl we'd never met and he'd only met online to a junior high prom at another school and it turned into a whole "so thanks mom and dad for telling me you don't think someone could be interested in me!"

He also once got mad coming home to visit from college where he spent the whole day visiting everyone else and after several "I'll just be a bit delayed" he said he'd be at my house at around 9:30pm and I said, "it's OK I am just done and going to sleep" and he took that as some kind of hostile "I AM DONE !!! (with you)" etc. when I was just basically face-planting after waiting the whole day for him to come around.

His last stop had been my in-laws and they said it was shameful that I got mad at him for staying so long there. I wasn't even mad at all. I was seriously just falling asleep and was entirely okay with stuff just going to the next day.

I really didn't even understand what I'd done wrong, but he took those two things as great offenses at the time. Now he doesn't, of course.

The same "prom girl" he eventually did date for a while also threw a conniption fit a few years later when she wanted him to take him to another prom and he told her we were making him stay to take his final exams that day at his prep school until 4pm, throwing her entire timeline off course.

She was such a pill she wouldn't even let me take pictures of them while I was helping him dress in his tux in the parking lot of her HS to help them make the bus to the fancy hotel. She wouldn't even look me in the eye and turned away when I tried to hug her.

He says today he realizes it all.

So I actually read these examples you're giving. I think an emotionally mature thing to do as a parent is in the moment have the conversation with the teenager about how you got to that level of misunderstanding. Because both your examples and especially the second one (I am just done) truly do have a lot of room for misunderstanding. The parent is just not automatically right with good intentions. Parents should own their own role and fallibility in sometimes not using the best tone or being tired or just not handling things great. Through these conversations you'll better earn trust and figure out each other's triggers. Don't just dismiss their feelings or reactions and don't just count on one day they will realize they were wrong and you were right because your intentions were always good. Yes, I have teenagers.

Anonymous wrote:Everyone wants to discard their parents. What's new? Kindness doesn't extend to people who love you, raise you and pay for your education. They are held to a perfect standard.

Somehow children whose parents abandon, abuse and exploit them are more forgiving then children whose parents asked to clean room or finish homework.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:A five page letter of grievances sounds excessive, to be honest. Maybe they abused you, but it sounds more like you are a bit of a delicate flower.

5 pages was sent because I thought if they kept saying they "have no idea" or "well, you must hate us", maybe they deserved to know, so let me open up and explain to them calmly why I felt so unimportant. It was written with great care, with lots of loving expressions. A letter I thought for sure would "clear any misunderstanding", and lead to greater relationship. No, the letter was not sent to lash out, or for revenge, or attention, it was meant for reconciliation. I also thought for sure they would get it this time, because I meant 100% well. Well, I was wrong. So stupid.

You should have edited it and used bullet points. Otherwise it was probably a lot of hot air and had them rolling their eyes.

Even so, loving parents would have responded with more than "well you must really hate us." Any grownup I have ever heard use that phrase was the emotional equivalent of a toddler. It's not a reasonable response to any serious conversation.

... says the "adult" advocating permanent silent treatment. Spare us.

I'm curious if you've ever been treated for mental illness? A lot of the feelings you're describing aren't valid and are your anxiety lying to you or similar. My guess is you got the "well, you must hate us" because they were exasperated because you kept saying things like "I feel worthless" or "I feel unimportant" and chose to blame them because looking inward is too hard. People say bad things when they're exasperated. It happens. But, you just apparently tacked it onto your ever-growing list of grudges.

I wrote that but I am not OP. OP's story has some holes, but if OP's parents really just responded "well you must hate us," something isn't right with them either. Any adult I have ever heard use that phrase had issues.

OP here, no doubt my parents had issues, lots of real abuse in their childhood. I feel bad for them. But it's my job to re-parent them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A five page letter of grievances sounds excessive, to be honest. Maybe they abused you, but it sounds more like you are a bit of a delicate flower.

5 pages was sent because I thought if they kept saying they "have no idea" or "well, you must hate us", maybe they deserved to know, so let me open up and explain to them calmly why I felt so unimportant. It was written with great care, with lots of loving expressions. A letter I thought for sure would "clear any misunderstanding", and lead to greater relationship. No, the letter was not sent to lash out, or for revenge, or attention, it was meant for reconciliation. I also thought for sure they would get it this time, because I meant 100% well. Well, I was wrong. So stupid.

You should have edited it and used bullet points. Otherwise it was probably a lot of hot air and had them rolling their eyes.

Even so, loving parents would have responded with more than "well you must really hate us." Any grownup I have ever heard use that phrase was the emotional equivalent of a toddler. It's not a reasonable response to any serious conversation.

... says the "adult" advocating permanent silent treatment. Spare us.

I'm curious if you've ever been treated for mental illness? A lot of the feelings you're describing aren't valid and are your anxiety lying to you or similar. My guess is you got the "well, you must hate us" because they were exasperated because you kept saying things like "I feel worthless" or "I feel unimportant" and chose to blame them because looking inward is too hard. People say bad things when they're exasperated. It happens. But, you just apparently tacked it onto your ever-growing list of grudges.

I wrote that but I am not OP. OP's story has some holes, but if OP's parents really just responded "well you must hate us," something isn't right with them either. Any adult I have ever heard use that phrase had issues.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A five page letter of grievances sounds excessive, to be honest. Maybe they abused you, but it sounds more like you are a bit of a delicate flower.

5 pages was sent because I thought if they kept saying they "have no idea" or "well, you must hate us", maybe they deserved to know, so let me open up and explain to them calmly why I felt so unimportant. It was written with great care, with lots of loving expressions. A letter I thought for sure would "clear any misunderstanding", and lead to greater relationship. No, the letter was not sent to lash out, or for revenge, or attention, it was meant for reconciliation. I also thought for sure they would get it this time, because I meant 100% well. Well, I was wrong. So stupid.

You should have edited it and used bullet points. Otherwise it was probably a lot of hot air and had them rolling their eyes.

Even so, loving parents would have responded with more than "well you must really hate us." Any grownup I have ever heard use that phrase was the emotional equivalent of a toddler. It's not a reasonable response to any serious conversation.

... says the "adult" advocating permanent silent treatment. Spare us.

I'm curious if you've ever been treated for mental illness? A lot of the feelings you're describing aren't valid and are your anxiety lying to you or similar. My guess is you got the "well, you must hate us" because they were exasperated because you kept saying things like "I feel worthless" or "I feel unimportant" and chose to blame them because looking inward is too hard. People say bad things when they're exasperated. It happens. But, you just apparently tacked it onto your ever-growing list of grudges.

I wrote that but I am not OP. OP's story has some holes, but if OP's parents really just responded "well you must hate us," something isn't right with them either. Any adult I have ever heard use that phrase had issues.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Do they display their own negative emotions?

I think what they are doing is something a therapist told them to do. They are trying to enjoy a visit, but when negative things are brought up, they try to redirect. It seems like maybe they're telling you that they can't manage your negative emotions, why do you keep trying then? Just accept that and only have surface level interactions. I'm not sure that needs to be a gray rock though. They feel like they're put in a situation in which they can't win at all when things become negative. Probably the only way to get past that would be group therapy.

I have a sister who is NC mostly with the rest of us. Anytime anything gets even the slightest bit heated, we all quickly change the subject and head to safer ground. She will become mentally unstable, scream, throw things and generally make us feel like trash. She makes wild statements (like "if you aren't spending all your free time protesting animal rights, you hate animals and shouldn't be able to live with yourself."). Gray rock seems to be the only way we can manage it. Her therapist at least yearly has her send us long 5 page letters, mostly bringing up old flaws. It would be nice to at least start over. I'm not saying you're like my sister, but my example is more about why we all run when negative things are brought up.

They do not see therapy, they think therapy is for the weak. Yes, I believe the only way to have any relationship with them is to keep it surface level, but that doesn't feel good, who wants a surface level relationship with their parents? And the disconnection between their loving verbal expressions and their actual behaviors drives me crazy.

If my parents think of me the same way you think of your crazy sister, then I would want them to at least tell me, set boundaries, communicate, telling me I am crazy is better than "we don't know why you don't talk to us". Literally, if they could send a longer reply listing why they disagree, at least that shows that I exist, that they see me. The shutdown is what makes me feel invisible. I suppose this is why toddlers sometimes seek negative attention, because that's better than no attention? (even though I don't get it), in my case, I am not seeking attention, I just noticed this pattern in our interactions for all those years and became increasingly hurt.

I detect more than a whiff of therapy speak here. Do you, by chance, have a therapist who spends more time validating your feelings and coaching you to do things like go no contact than challenging you and your own behaviors?

No. LOL, stop it Doormat Mom.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that OP is between the ages of 22 and 29 years old.

OP - this is a tale as old as time, particularly between generations on either side of the "emotions are good and healthy!" divide. You grow up, you learn to be an adult, you learn to communicate, and to manage and express your emotions. Then see your parents in a whole new light - and it's sucky. They've got Faults. Big ones. Ones that you would never want in a friend or in a relationship, or with your kids, and they negatively impact your relationship with them. And just as you learned and grew and figured it out between the ages of 12 and 22, you want THEM to learn and grow and figure it out and you know life will be better for them and you guys will have a much better relationship. And if you can just communicate clearly and express yourself well and get through to them, and if they would just do the bare minimum of the objectively right thing (listening and having empathy for their beloved child) then things would be fine!

It's not. going. to. happen.

They will never change, ever. They're Boomers, right? They didn't grow up with emotional empathy being positive, they never learned how to do it, and they're not going to it now. Nothing you say will change them. They will not change. NEVER. This does NOT mean they don't love you, but that love is NEVER going to look like you think it should.

The first step is accepting this, which you clearly have not done. When you say this: "not expecting them to change, but just a little acknowledgment of my feelings from them would make a difference" - that is ABSOLUTELY expecting them to change. They don't acknowledge feelings. That's not who they are.

The second step is taking a step back and saying "have they really done something so awful that the right path is to never see them again, despite the fact that I love them and they worked their butts off to raise me." That happens, even when there's love on both sides. Were they abusive? Do they do things like constantly berate you, curse at you, are they cruel to you? Do they cross boundaries, like freaking out when you don't answer the phone, calling you 20 times in a row and then calling the police? Are they mean and nasty all the time? There are situations where no contact makes total sense, and I really feel for the people who have to deal with that.

But nothing you're saying says that no contact is the right next step. They don't want to hear anything negative and they don't express any empathy and your conversations shut down when there's conflict, so everything feels very shallow? Um, okay that's like more than 50% of Boomer parents/grandparents. This is not worth cutting them off. You need to develop some thicker skin, recognize it's not about you (if they loved me wouldn't they... no. They're emotionally stunted, so no), and set some reasonable boundaries so that you can spend time with them without tearing your hair out. So - positive stories, save your complaining for people who will get it. Find something neutral and fun to do that isn't so much talking (card games? Board games? Follow sports together?) Limit the quantity of time (quarterly?) so it's manageable for you. And ride this out.

In other words: Refusing to see your parents who you claim to love for two years its a much bigger transgression than anything they've done to you, unless you're leaving out a bunch of stuff.

OP here. Thank you for your very thoughtful reply, you are a kind person who is willing to share your wisdom with a stranger online. I am starting to agree with you that I just need to have a surface level relationship with them, that is what they want. To them that's the only relationship humans have anyway. Looking back, I am not sure they had any real relationship with each other or any person. But I am not there yet, I am still so hurt that I have no strength to make that step. I would rather sit here feeling sick to my stomach & complain on DCUM, LOL. I hope one day I can "ride this out" as you suggested. But first, I need to really let it go, knowing that I will never have any real relationship with them and be ok with that. And yes, I left out all the stuff, and no, they didn't both work hard to raise me, one of them is hard-core alcoholic and did nothing for me. The other did all housework but enabled the alcoholic. I am not going to any details. But honestly, the abuse that some might view as "real" feels less hurt to me than the emotional neglect.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A five page letter of grievances sounds excessive, to be honest. Maybe they abused you, but it sounds more like you are a bit of a delicate flower.

5 pages was sent because I thought if they kept saying they "have no idea" or "well, you must hate us", maybe they deserved to know, so let me open up and explain to them calmly why I felt so unimportant. It was written with great care, with lots of loving expressions. A letter I thought for sure would "clear any misunderstanding", and lead to greater relationship. No, the letter was not sent to lash out, or for revenge, or attention, it was meant for reconciliation. I also thought for sure they would get it this time, because I meant 100% well. Well, I was wrong. So stupid.

You should have edited it and used bullet points. Otherwise it was probably a lot of hot air and had them rolling their eyes.

Even so, loving parents would have responded with more than "well you must really hate us." Any grownup I have ever heard use that phrase was the emotional equivalent of a toddler. It's not a reasonable response to any serious conversation.

... says the "adult" advocating permanent silent treatment. Spare us.

I'm curious if you've ever been treated for mental illness? A lot of the feelings you're describing aren't valid and are your anxiety lying to you or similar. My guess is you got the "well, you must hate us" because they were exasperated because you kept saying things like "I feel worthless" or "I feel unimportant" and chose to blame them because looking inward is too hard. People say bad things when they're exasperated. It happens. But, you just apparently tacked it onto your ever-growing list of grudges.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do they display their own negative emotions?

I think what they are doing is something a therapist told them to do. They are trying to enjoy a visit, but when negative things are brought up, they try to redirect. It seems like maybe they're telling you that they can't manage your negative emotions, why do you keep trying then? Just accept that and only have surface level interactions. I'm not sure that needs to be a gray rock though. They feel like they're put in a situation in which they can't win at all when things become negative. Probably the only way to get past that would be group therapy.

I have a sister who is NC mostly with the rest of us. Anytime anything gets even the slightest bit heated, we all quickly change the subject and head to safer ground. She will become mentally unstable, scream, throw things and generally make us feel like trash. She makes wild statements (like "if you aren't spending all your free time protesting animal rights, you hate animals and shouldn't be able to live with yourself."). Gray rock seems to be the only way we can manage it. Her therapist at least yearly has her send us long 5 page letters, mostly bringing up old flaws. It would be nice to at least start over. I'm not saying you're like my sister, but my example is more about why we all run when negative things are brought up.

They do not see therapy, they think therapy is for the weak. Yes, I believe the only way to have any relationship with them is to keep it surface level, but that doesn't feel good, who wants a surface level relationship with their parents? And the disconnection between their loving verbal expressions and their actual behaviors drives me crazy.

If my parents think of me the same way you think of your crazy sister, then I would want them to at least tell me, set boundaries, communicate, telling me I am crazy is better than "we don't know why you don't talk to us". Literally, if they could send a longer reply listing why they disagree, at least that shows that I exist, that they see me. The shutdown is what makes me feel invisible. I suppose this is why toddlers sometimes seek negative attention, because that's better than no attention? (even though I don't get it), in my case, I am not seeking attention, I just noticed this pattern in our interactions for all those years and became increasingly hurt.

I detect more than a whiff of therapy speak here. Do you, by chance, have a therapist who spends more time validating your feelings and coaching you to do things like go no contact than challenging you and your own behaviors?