I would absolutely, 100% prefer the transparent European system.

I work in biotech, and in the past few years Europe has made great strides in transparency with regard to drugs and pharmaceuticals. That approach is just better all around.

Meanwhile American universities love that they each get to have their own secret criteria for what gets a student admitted. This despite the fact that the collective angst it causes the applicants and their families is enough to cause a rift in space & time.

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Anonymous wrote:European way, at least in the UK, is also somewhat holistic. Academic proficiency matters more there, though, and I think they consider the right mix of holistic and academic qualifications.

Not sure their system would work in the US unless we also switched to making kids lock in their majors when they enter college. For example, great math and physics test scores are going to matter if you want to major in physics, but not so much history.

+1 Europeans lock in much earlier to their course of study as teens. And most European colleges are much more focused on that course of study too---definitely not as many electives that are not related to their primary focus (i.e. major). More practical I guess, but I prefer the American way which allows a bit more freedom for a teenager to change their mind about what to do.

Except that nowadays they need to be locked into a “narrative” from the age of 14 to get into one of these elite colleges. If you think teens should have the freedom to explore their interests you should hate everything about the current American admissions process.

Some kids, yes, who are groomed for T10 schools, sure. But other teenagers just remain, clueless teenagers, who might study business, or computer science, or English depending on the day with no need to lockin.

+1. The vast, vast, majority of colleges in the US have high admissions rates. The problem isn’t the system. It’s the parents who are obsessed with getting their kids into the T10.

Let’s be clear, it’s not individual parents, it’s a culture. If your kid is good at school and/or tests, the only way to opt out is to move away from areas like the DMV. If you simply tell your kid that those aren’t your values, and you won’t pay for those schools, the kid will be judged a weirdo and a failure when they don’t go to a T25, just as much as if they had joined a cult.

This is completely wrong. Nobody cares about you or your family, PP. Those who judge you will care about you for a minute and move on. If you don't think you're a failure, you aren't. I hope you aren't judging your own kids for not going to a T25. Let them live their lives. Where they go to college makes no difference if they are living the lives they want.

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Anonymous wrote:Don’t most European countries have a highly centralized, national high school curriculum so the differences in grading and courses is largely eliminated? It seems a necessary predicate to that kind of admissions system

US has APs.

Not nearly the same thing.

Many UK universities treat AP Subject exam results the same as UK A-levels. So those colleges, at least, would say they are close enough.

Yes, but US schools look at GPAs, and that is subjective based on the teacher and curriculum.

GPAs are very important but the rigor of the curriculum is just as crucial. You do not see the 4.0UW kid who tops out at Algebra 2 and Spanish 3 get into the same schools as the 4.0UW kid who took BC Calcululus and AP SPanish Lit junior year.

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Anonymous wrote:Don’t most European countries have a highly centralized, national high school curriculum so the differences in grading and courses is largely eliminated? It seems a necessary predicate to that kind of admissions system

US has APs.

Not nearly the same thing.

+1.we regularly hear that applicants to elite schools must have 4 years of all core subjects, including math science and foreign language even if the student has no intention of majoring in said subject. That doesn’t occur in the European system as much because by age 16, you start specializing much more

US students specialize as well, via AP classes. They just take a wider range of classes on top of that.

AP exam score aren't usually part of the college application in the US, unlike in Europe.

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I don't understand what people mean when they say this. I have heard multiple people say these exact words recently. Students send their AP scores. Admissions officers say that they look at them. I recently heard an Ivy League AO on a podcast say that for similar candidates they'll compare whether or not the students actually took the AP tests and obviously what score they got.

Obviously APs are not required, but neither are leadership positions or awards or even standardized test scores in most cases.

Anonymous wrote:Many complain about managing all the factors in US college admissions. Academics, athletics, ECs, and more.

Would you prefer European style admissions where only academics (includes school work/grades and either ACT/SAT, and AP Subject Test results (not the number if AP classes or which AP classes were taken) matter??

The US universities are considered the best in the world, and European universities with a handful of exceptions like Oxford are considered middling, so no, I would not copy European admissions even though it would benefit my kids.

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Anonymous wrote:Don’t most European countries have a highly centralized, national high school curriculum so the differences in grading and courses is largely eliminated? It seems a necessary predicate to that kind of admissions system

US has APs.

Not nearly the same thing.

Many UK universities treat AP Subject exam results the same as UK A-levels. So those colleges, at least, would say they are close enough.

For limited use for the small percentage of US students applying internationally. As a metric for all students in the US applying to college? Not every school offers APs or the same APs - this is the kind of thing that parents of kids who go to private or rich public schools like because their kid benefits at the expense of others.

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Anonymous wrote:European way, at least in the UK, is also somewhat holistic. Academic proficiency matters more there, though, and I think they consider the right mix of holistic and academic qualifications.

Not sure their system would work in the US unless we also switched to making kids lock in their majors when they enter college. For example, great math and physics test scores are going to matter if you want to major in physics, but not so much history.

UK has two sets of national exams.

Using the example above, at age 16 the STEM student still would sit the GCSE exams for multiple subjects (formerly called O-levels - for those of a certain age) so UK students do not specialize until the last 2 years of HS.

This is still insanely early compared to the American system. I personally like it that US college students can remain generalist when they enter.

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Anonymous wrote:I think the US way is fine. It is the anxiety around it that is not fine and makes it seem much worse than it is.

the anxiety is due to the opaque US style of admissions.

The way other countries do it, it's pretty clear cut.

Then why do they try to send so many students here?

India and PRC and some other countries have many more students who want to go to college than there are openings to attend college domestically.

In many cases, they simply want to move to a country that they perceive as "wealthier" than their own -- and attending a US college is merely a mechanism to immigrate to the US.

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Anonymous wrote:Don’t most European countries have a highly centralized, national high school curriculum so the differences in grading and courses is largely eliminated? It seems a necessary predicate to that kind of admissions system

US has APs.

Not nearly the same thing.

Many UK universities treat AP Subject exam results the same as UK A-levels. So those colleges, at least, would say they are close enough.

Yes, but US schools look at GPAs, and that is subjective based on the teacher and curriculum.

One idea is to cut out GPA and just use the AP Subject Test scores instead. This would force HSs to teach better.

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t most European countries have a highly centralized, national high school curriculum so the differences in grading and courses is largely eliminated? It seems a necessary predicate to that kind of admissions system

US has APs.

Not nearly the same thing.

+1.we regularly hear that applicants to elite schools must have 4 years of all core subjects, including math science and foreign language even if the student has no intention of majoring in said subject. That doesn’t occur in the European system as much because by age 16, you start specializing much more

US students specialize as well, via AP classes. They just take a wider range of classes on top of that.

AP exam score aren't usually part of the college application in the US, unlike in Europe.

Then maybe they should be

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Anonymous wrote:I think the US way is fine. It is the anxiety around it that is not fine and makes it seem much worse than it is.

the anxiety is due to the opaque US style of admissions.

The way other countries do it, it's pretty clear cut.

Then why do they try to send so many students here?

Because our universities are great because they get a ton of (mostly research, but partly tuition) funding. And that doesn't change depending on admissions policies.

You can’t separate the admissions policies and claim they don’t matter.

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t most European countries have a highly centralized, national high school curriculum so the differences in grading and courses is largely eliminated? It seems a necessary predicate to that kind of admissions system

US has APs.

Not nearly the same thing.

Many UK universities treat AP Subject exam results the same as UK A-levels. So those colleges, at least, would say they are close enough.

Yes, but US schools look at GPAs, and that is subjective based on the teacher and curriculum.

Then maybe part of the hypothetical reform could be to more heavily weigh AP SAT and ACT scores.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the US way is fine. It is the anxiety around it that is not fine and makes it seem much worse than it is.

the anxiety is due to the opaque US style of admissions.

The way other countries do it, it's pretty clear cut.

Then why do they try to send so many students here?

Because our universities are great because they get a ton of (mostly research, but partly tuition) funding. And that doesn't change depending on admissions policies.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t most European countries have a highly centralized, national high school curriculum so the differences in grading and courses is largely eliminated? It seems a necessary predicate to that kind of admissions system

US has APs.

Not nearly the same thing.

+1.we regularly hear that applicants to elite schools must have 4 years of all core subjects, including math science and foreign language even if the student has no intention of majoring in said subject. That doesn’t occur in the European system as much because by age 16, you start specializing much more

US students specialize as well, via AP classes. They just take a wider range of classes on top of that.

AP exam score aren't usually part of the college application in the US, unlike in Europe.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t most European countries have a highly centralized, national high school curriculum so the differences in grading and courses is largely eliminated? It seems a necessary predicate to that kind of admissions system

US has APs.

Not nearly the same thing.

+1.we regularly hear that applicants to elite schools must have 4 years of all core subjects, including math science and foreign language even if the student has no intention of majoring in said subject. That doesn’t occur in the European system as much because by age 16, you start specializing much more

US students specialize as well, via AP classes. They just take a wider range of classes on top of that.