Anonymous wrote:Reading this with interest. I have a sophomore at a top 10 school doing premed. The academic requirements are really the least of it. And she is a total workaholic with no social life so the commitment isn’t an issue. She was lucky to get a funded research spot in a lab and is working 10-20 hours a week there in addition to her heavy premed load.
We really have no idea how she is going to get the clinical hours. She can’t get them at school. What are the kids doing for that?

She’s talking about skipping a semester abroad because she’s stressed about the premed requirements but I feel like spending a semester in a different culture solidifying language skills would be really useful for a doctor!

I’m also a little irked at the person saying oh just spend your first two summers meeting those requirements. How are 18 year old kids supposed to find these positions? None of the kids I know that finished freshman year were able to find anything beyond camp cohnsellr, lifeguard, etc.

My kid would be a phenomenal doctor — so smart, really caring, great with people, curious, hard working, doesn’t care much about money. But I feel like this whole process is designed to weed her out. She might just get a PhD and go work for a biotech or pharma company or something.

For goodness sakes, she won the lottery, she is at a top 10 school! She needs to use the resources. Her premed advising will know what is needed from that school to get in, and often below average GPA is just fine from a T10.
My premed is at an ivy, got into multiple T10/ivy, and we researched the heck out of all premed options in the T50 even though I went to T10 and am a physician. Kids at T10 with a hospital on or near campus have it made. Every one I know that has a medical school lists clinical programs on the premed websites. Summer can be spent on research(T10 has the funds), which is essential if they want to try for Top20 med schools like all their classmates will. They can volunteer in the hospital affiliated with the school, they can get a CNA and get a job: there is a nursing/medical assistant shortage. They can get their EMT at community college and get a job. They can do volunteer work for opioid addiction clinics or planned parenthood in addition to research the first summer, or go abroad on a medically-related summer program offered by the T10. T10s have many summer-abroad experiences open to freshmen. That is just a quick list of the things kid and her premed friends do at her ivy as well as her premed friends at the state school, which does not have a hospital yet they figure it out.
Every premed kid my kid knows got some sort of medically-related or volunteer or research experience after freshman year. Maybe their school has more resources, but that is not likely as yours is at a T10! Even without that first summer, there are 400 more hours the summer after sophomore year and another 400 after junior year. That is plenty of time left to get it all done. Most science majors cannot go abroad for a semester; that is common and part of the sacrifice. They can however go on medical missions in the summer and T10s are the most likely places that provide these experiences.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They should have 3 years of heavily focused undergrad followed by a year of a related medical experience (paid internship) and then med school.

And they need to let more kids into med school. We need more American-educated doctors.

Sigh. This was addressed above. It's not as simple as simply admitting more students. Could you pack more into the lecture halls? Sure (especially now that lots of students don't go to lecture, it's recorded and many watch it ... or plan to anyway ... later). But there simply are not enough rotation sites or residency sites. Medical training is a lot more than sitting in a class room.

Then why do we need so many foreign doctors? Why don’t we invest and make this career more feasible for Americans?

Foreign doctors often have to do additional training or testing here.

Going to a Caribbean medical school is a terrible idea (was mentioned above).

This is what I don’t understand. All these foreign educated doctors are doing reaidencies in the U.S.? How can you say there aren’t enough residencies spots to add more slots to American med schools? Couldn’t some of those residencies slots gojng yo foreign educated doctors just go to American educated ones?

No. It isn't this simple.

First, although there are slots that go to IMGs, there are not a lot of them and they don't tend to be the most desirable ones. I have experience with this -- I've worked with IMGs seeking residency in the US. Second, most IMGs have been licensed and have been practicing medicine for years in another country. They have a lot of experience with patient care, but need to do a residency here to become acclimated to the American healthcare system and get licensed here. Given that residents are the workhorses in any teaching hospital, it often makes sense to bring these folks onboard -- they hit the ground running and provide more patient care than a student straight out of med school can or will. Finally, the finite number of residency slots is not the only issue -- there is a lack of rotation slots as well (this is actually a big problem right now, and I hear med students complain about it a lot).

100%, yes, agree!
And furthermore, to the PP, American MD programs match 98% of their students, the top 50 match 100% every year unless someone only lists one or two programs which is strongly discouraged. The DO programs that struggle with matching over 80% of their students are because many DO programs do not have enough hospital-ward or specialty-clinic rotation spots for their students! Residency programs do not want to take students who lack the right depth of training. Preference always goes to MD programs in the US or the handful of known top DO programs. IMGs do not take spots from adequately trained US med students.

I have no issue with what you are saying.

My question is why is the US importing doctors to do residency instead of training those doctors here? I don't find the argument that those doctors have been practicing a few years abroad before they come a compelling one.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They should have 3 years of heavily focused undergrad followed by a year of a related medical experience (paid internship) and then med school.

And they need to let more kids into med school. We need more American-educated doctors.

Sigh. This was addressed above. It's not as simple as simply admitting more students. Could you pack more into the lecture halls? Sure (especially now that lots of students don't go to lecture, it's recorded and many watch it ... or plan to anyway ... later). But there simply are not enough rotation sites or residency sites. Medical training is a lot more than sitting in a class room.

Then why do we need so many foreign doctors? Why don’t we invest and make this career more feasible for Americans?

Foreign doctors often have to do additional training or testing here.

Going to a Caribbean medical school is a terrible idea (was mentioned above).

This is what I don’t understand. All these foreign educated doctors are doing reaidencies in the U.S.? How can you say there aren’t enough residencies spots to add more slots to American med schools? Couldn’t some of those residencies slots gojng yo foreign educated doctors just go to American educated ones?

No. It isn't this simple.

First, although there are slots that go to IMGs, there are not a lot of them and they don't tend to be the most desirable ones. I have experience with this -- I've worked with IMGs seeking residency in the US. Second, most IMGs have been licensed and have been practicing medicine for years in another country. They have a lot of experience with patient care, but need to do a residency here to become acclimated to the American healthcare system and get licensed here. Given that residents are the workhorses in any teaching hospital, it often makes sense to bring these folks onboard -- they hit the ground running and provide more patient care than a student straight out of med school can or will. Finally, the finite number of residency slots is not the only issue -- there is a lack of rotation slots as well (this is actually a big problem right now, and I hear med students complain about it a lot).

100%, yes, agree!
And furthermore, to the PP, American MD programs match 98% of their students, the top 50 match 100% every year unless someone only lists one or two programs which is strongly discouraged. The DO programs that struggle with matching over 80% of their students are because many DO programs do not have enough hospital-ward or specialty-clinic rotation spots for their students! Residency programs do not want to take students who lack the right depth of training. Preference always goes to MD programs in the US or the handful of known top DO programs. IMGs do not take spots from adequately trained US med students.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are there so many requirements for getting into medical school now? So many hours of extra stuff?? Why spend 4 yrs on undergrad classes but still need a gap year to do all the requirements and apply?

On the other end, there is a growing shortage of every doctor specialty, even in urban areas.

Smart kids who are qualified and interested are turned off by all the stupid requirements and the immense time it takes to do them.

The system should make it easier for these kids to pursue medicine, not harder. It’s already a long grueling expensive road as it is. Why is the system making it even that much more difficult and more expensive?? As a society, this makes no sense at all.

Thoughts?

Disagree. I'm glad to hear that there is still some sort of weed-out process in place. I was beginning to think they let anyone into med school.

The last thing we need is more so-called "smart kids" who think they want to be doctors, but don't want to put in the work required to learn and understand all that can take place in the human mind and body.

+++ The current system works just fine. I have never met someone who had the smarts and the dedication not get in anywhere.
40% of all US applicants get in to at least one MD program. The 60% who do not either did not have the GPA or MCAT score or did not put in the time on all of the other stuff, or have some serious flaws of personality (got to interview rounds then no acceptances).
Can they try again? Sure, but if they do not get the stats up or do the extras they will not get in nor should they.
Becoming a physician is a long road : Residency is more demanding than med school which is more demanding than undergrad. The weedout process works. You have to be excellent at advanced sciences and a quick thinker able to process complex situations fast in order to save lives. Look at the AMCAS data: Acceptance is approaching 60% for over 3.60 and over 510; the majority of rejections are GPAs below that or scores below or both. Sorry but 3.6 is a pretty low bar when most colleges have average GPAs of 3.7+ these days.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They should have 3 years of heavily focused undergrad followed by a year of a related medical experience (paid internship) and then med school.

And they need to let more kids into med school. We need more American-educated doctors.

Sigh. This was addressed above. It's not as simple as simply admitting more students. Could you pack more into the lecture halls? Sure (especially now that lots of students don't go to lecture, it's recorded and many watch it ... or plan to anyway ... later). But there simply are not enough rotation sites or residency sites. Medical training is a lot more than sitting in a class room.

Then why do we need so many foreign doctors? Why don’t we invest and make this career more feasible for Americans?

Foreign doctors often have to do additional training or testing here.

Going to a Caribbean medical school is a terrible idea (was mentioned above).

This is what I don’t understand. All these foreign educated doctors are doing reaidencies in the U.S.? How can you say there aren’t enough residencies spots to add more slots to American med schools? Couldn’t some of those residencies slots gojng yo foreign educated doctors just go to American educated ones?

No. It isn't this simple.

First, although there are slots that go to IMGs, there are not a lot of them and they don't tend to be the most desirable ones. I have experience with this -- I've worked with IMGs seeking residency in the US. Second, most IMGs have been licensed and have been practicing medicine for years in another country. They have a lot of experience with patient care, but need to do a residency here to become acclimated to the American healthcare system and get licensed here. Given that residents are the workhorses in any teaching hospital, it often makes sense to bring these folks onboard -- they hit the ground running and provide more patient care than a student straight out of med school can or will. Finally, the finite number of residency slots is not the only issue -- there is a lack of rotation slots as well (this is actually a big problem right now, and I hear med students complain about it a lot).

Do you have a basis for this? I am from an immigrant community with many foreign born doctors and all of the immigrant doctors I have known planned far in advance to move to the US as soon after med school was complete as possible.

[b]I worked for a company the sole function of which is to counsel/support IMGs seeking residency in the US.[url] They paid us a LOT of money, so we did what we could to get those with a good shot at it a match. So yes, I "have a basis for this." IMGs with very high step scores might be admitted to a program without the extensive experience I mentioned (and conversely, American students with very low step scores can end up scrambling, with their faculty desperately trying to get them a match anywhere they can) -- but it depends on specialty (IM and Family Med are generally much easier matches).

So… still anecdotal… you don’t have a statistic or anything…

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They should have 3 years of heavily focused undergrad followed by a year of a related medical experience (paid internship) and then med school.

And they need to let more kids into med school. We need more American-educated doctors.

Sigh. This was addressed above. It's not as simple as simply admitting more students. Could you pack more into the lecture halls? Sure (especially now that lots of students don't go to lecture, it's recorded and many watch it ... or plan to anyway ... later). But there simply are not enough rotation sites or residency sites. Medical training is a lot more than sitting in a class room.

Then why do we need so many foreign doctors? Why don’t we invest and make this career more feasible for Americans?

Foreign doctors often have to do additional training or testing here.

Going to a Caribbean medical school is a terrible idea (was mentioned above).

This is what I don’t understand. All these foreign educated doctors are doing reaidencies in the U.S.? How can you say there aren’t enough residencies spots to add more slots to American med schools? Couldn’t some of those residencies slots gojng yo foreign educated doctors just go to American educated ones?

No. It isn't this simple.

First, although there are slots that go to IMGs, there are not a lot of them and they don't tend to be the most desirable ones. I have experience with this -- I've worked with IMGs seeking residency in the US. Second, most IMGs have been licensed and have been practicing medicine for years in another country. They have a lot of experience with patient care, but need to do a residency here to become acclimated to the American healthcare system and get licensed here. Given that residents are the workhorses in any teaching hospital, it often makes sense to bring these folks onboard -- they hit the ground running and provide more patient care than a student straight out of med school can or will. Finally, the finite number of residency slots is not the only issue -- there is a lack of rotation slots as well (this is actually a big problem right now, and I hear med students complain about it a lot).

Do you have a basis for this? I am from an immigrant community with many foreign born doctors and all of the immigrant doctors I have known planned far in advance to move to the US as soon after med school was complete as possible.

I worked for a company the sole function of which is to counsel/support IMGs seeking residency in the US. They paid us a LOT of money, so we did what we could to get those with a good shot at it a match. So yes, I "have a basis for this." IMGs with very high step scores might be admitted to a program without the extensive experience I mentioned (and conversely, American students with very low step scores can end up scrambling, with their faculty desperately trying to get them a match anywhere they can) -- but it depends on specialty (IM and Family Med are generally much easier matches).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They should have 3 years of heavily focused undergrad followed by a year of a related medical experience (paid internship) and then med school.

And they need to let more kids into med school. We need more American-educated doctors.

Sigh. This was addressed above. It's not as simple as simply admitting more students. Could you pack more into the lecture halls? Sure (especially now that lots of students don't go to lecture, it's recorded and many watch it ... or plan to anyway ... later). But there simply are not enough rotation sites or residency sites. Medical training is a lot more than sitting in a class room.

Then why do we need so many foreign doctors? Why don’t we invest and make this career more feasible for Americans?

Foreign doctors often have to do additional training or testing here.

Going to a Caribbean medical school is a terrible idea (was mentioned above).

This is what I don’t understand. All these foreign educated doctors are doing reaidencies in the U.S.? How can you say there aren’t enough residencies spots to add more slots to American med schools? Couldn’t some of those residencies slots gojng yo foreign educated doctors just go to American educated ones?

No. It isn't this simple.

First, although there are slots that go to IMGs, there are not a lot of them and they don't tend to be the most desirable ones. I have experience with this -- I've worked with IMGs seeking residency in the US. Second, most IMGs have been licensed and have been practicing medicine for years in another country. They have a lot of experience with patient care, but need to do a residency here to become acclimated to the American healthcare system and get licensed here. Given that residents are the workhorses in any teaching hospital, it often makes sense to bring these folks onboard -- they hit the ground running and provide more patient care than a student straight out of med school can or will. Finally, the finite number of residency slots is not the only issue -- there is a lack of rotation slots as well (this is actually a big problem right now, and I hear med students complain about it a lot).

Do you have a basis for this? I am from an immigrant community with many foreign born doctors and all of the immigrant doctors I have known planned far in advance to move to the US as soon after med school was complete as possible.

Don't believe a word out of self-claimed DCUM experts.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They should have 3 years of heavily focused undergrad followed by a year of a related medical experience (paid internship) and then med school.

And they need to let more kids into med school. We need more American-educated doctors.

Sigh. This was addressed above. It's not as simple as simply admitting more students. Could you pack more into the lecture halls? Sure (especially now that lots of students don't go to lecture, it's recorded and many watch it ... or plan to anyway ... later). But there simply are not enough rotation sites or residency sites. Medical training is a lot more than sitting in a class room.

YES, this.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They should have 3 years of heavily focused undergrad followed by a year of a related medical experience (paid internship) and then med school.

And they need to let more kids into med school. We need more American-educated doctors.

Sigh. This was addressed above. It's not as simple as simply admitting more students. Could you pack more into the lecture halls? Sure (especially now that lots of students don't go to lecture, it's recorded and many watch it ... or plan to anyway ... later). But there simply are not enough rotation sites or residency sites. Medical training is a lot more than sitting in a class room.

Then why do we need so many foreign doctors? Why don’t we invest and make this career more feasible for Americans?

Foreign doctors often have to do additional training or testing here.

Going to a Caribbean medical school is a terrible idea (was mentioned above).

This is what I don’t understand. All these foreign educated doctors are doing reaidencies in the U.S.? How can you say there aren’t enough residencies spots to add more slots to American med schools? Couldn’t some of those residencies slots gojng yo foreign educated doctors just go to American educated ones?

No. It isn't this simple.

First, although there are slots that go to IMGs, there are not a lot of them and they don't tend to be the most desirable ones. I have experience with this -- I've worked with IMGs seeking residency in the US. Second, most IMGs have been licensed and have been practicing medicine for years in another country. They have a lot of experience with patient care, but need to do a residency here to become acclimated to the American healthcare system and get licensed here. Given that residents are the workhorses in any teaching hospital, it often makes sense to bring these folks onboard -- they hit the ground running and provide more patient care than a student straight out of med school can or will. Finally, the finite number of residency slots is not the only issue -- there is a lack of rotation slots as well (this is actually a big problem right now, and I hear med students complain about it a lot).

Anonymous wrote:Reading this with interest. I have a sophomore at a top 10 school doing premed. The academic requirements are really the least of it. And she is a total workaholic with no social life so the commitment isn’t an issue. She was lucky to get a funded research spot in a lab and is working 10-20 hours a week there in addition to her heavy premed load.
We really have no idea how she is going to get the clinical hours. She can’t get them at school. What are the kids doing for that?

She’s talking about skipping a semester abroad because she’s stressed about the premed requirements but I feel like spending a semester in a different culture solidifying language skills would be really useful for a doctor!

I’m also a little irked at the person saying oh just spend your first two summers meeting those requirements. How are 18 year old kids supposed to find these positions? None of the kids I know that finished freshman year were able to find anything beyond camp cohnsellr, lifeguard, etc.

My kid would be a phenomenal doctor — so smart, really caring, great with people, curious, hard working, doesn’t care much about money. But I feel like this whole process is designed to weed her out. She might just get a PhD and go work for a biotech or pharma company or something.

I have a phd kid doing pharma research and another kid in residency. Phd kid doing pharma research could never be a doctor and the one in residency wouldn't have enjoyed doing pharma research. Kids eventually find their path. Very rarely you have a kid equally enjoying biotech/pharma research AND clinical MD.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They should have 3 years of heavily focused undergrad followed by a year of a related medical experience (paid internship) and then med school.

And they need to let more kids into med school. We need more American-educated doctors.

Sigh. This was addressed above. It's not as simple as simply admitting more students. Could you pack more into the lecture halls? Sure (especially now that lots of students don't go to lecture, it's recorded and many watch it ... or plan to anyway ... later). But there simply are not enough rotation sites or residency sites. Medical training is a lot more than sitting in a class room.

Then why do we need so many foreign doctors? Why don’t we invest and make this career more feasible for Americans?

Because Americans are lazy and don’t want to put in the effort to get there. We are into instant gratification. There, I said it.

While you may have a general point, instant true with respect to medical schools. It isn’t about putting in effort. Plenty of kids want in and are willing to do work.

Sure, they want in. But are they willing to grind through 4 tough years of classes, plus a residency for 3-5 years, then a fellowship? And to accept the fact that they will be in their 30s when they are finally finished and ready to join the regular work force? In my experience, few "kids" can go the distance that this requires.

But why are we importing doctors who got into medical school from high school and did 6 years for undergrad+med school? No “research requirements” or volunteering in a hospital needed as long as they finish med school and know their stuff.

Why are we making the process more onerous for American kids and then admitting foreign graduates who had different requirements? If those doctors are good enough for us, why aren’t we admitting more kids into six year programs from high school?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They should have 3 years of heavily focused undergrad followed by a year of a related medical experience (paid internship) and then med school.

And they need to let more kids into med school. We need more American-educated doctors.

Sigh. This was addressed above. It's not as simple as simply admitting more students. Could you pack more into the lecture halls? Sure (especially now that lots of students don't go to lecture, it's recorded and many watch it ... or plan to anyway ... later). But there simply are not enough rotation sites or residency sites. Medical training is a lot more than sitting in a class room.

Then why do we need so many foreign doctors? Why don’t we invest and make this career more feasible for Americans?

Because Americans are lazy and don’t want to put in the effort to get there. We are into instant gratification. There, I said it.

Lol. You "said it," but it was ignorant nonsense. The reasons we don't train more US doctors in the US are, as I've said multiple times here already, complicated. But this is definitely not part of it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They should have 3 years of heavily focused undergrad followed by a year of a related medical experience (paid internship) and then med school.

And they need to let more kids into med school. We need more American-educated doctors.

Sigh. This was addressed above. It's not as simple as simply admitting more students. Could you pack more into the lecture halls? Sure (especially now that lots of students don't go to lecture, it's recorded and many watch it ... or plan to anyway ... later). But there simply are not enough rotation sites or residency sites. Medical training is a lot more than sitting in a class room.

Then why do we need so many foreign doctors? Why don’t we invest and make this career more feasible for Americans?

Because Americans are lazy and don’t want to put in the effort to get there. We are into instant gratification. There, I said it.

While you may have a general point, instant true with respect to medical schools. It isn’t about putting in effort. Plenty of kids want in and are willing to do work.

For those kids, the current process works fine. "Want" and "willing to" are not the same as getting it done.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They should have 3 years of heavily focused undergrad followed by a year of a related medical experience (paid internship) and then med school.

And they need to let more kids into med school. We need more American-educated doctors.

Sigh. This was addressed above. It's not as simple as simply admitting more students. Could you pack more into the lecture halls? Sure (especially now that lots of students don't go to lecture, it's recorded and many watch it ... or plan to anyway ... later). But there simply are not enough rotation sites or residency sites. Medical training is a lot more than sitting in a class room.

Then why do we need so many foreign doctors? Why don’t we invest and make this career more feasible for Americans?

We need foreign doctors because we don't have enough doctors. I didn't say we shouldn't find a way to train more US doctors. I said it isn't as simple as admitting more students to med school. "Why don't we invest and make this career more feasible for Americans"? Again, this is complicated. But to start, there are not enough teaching hospitals with room for students and residents to train, and we can't just snap our fingers and have more of those.