Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Compared to 30 years ago, I think it's very true that there are comparatively few bright students interested in becoming lawyers today. Now, smart and ambitious students are much more likely to choose engineering, finance, pre-med, tech, and consulting.

People are much more informed today about the realities of being a lawyer. And neither the life nor the money seems that appealing to most. I think you really need to feel it as a vocation for it to make sense.

Agree! Very few of my daughter's Princeton class went to law school compared to consulting, IB and FinTech.

That’s because T14s, unlike the M7, discriminates against good schools. They want a 4.0 from southwest flyover state U instead of a 3.5 in math at Princeton. Any front office role in consulting, IB, and fintech straight out of undergrad is better than a V5 offer.

This is 1000% false. The T14 law schools are like 70% all kids from top 20 undergrads with their own undergrads massively over represented.

You then have 1 kid from like 150 different schools.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I did well in biglaw. Son is attending now. Entering Law, is, still the best upward mobility vehicle I know of aside from med school, which takes much longer. After clerking, he'll enter DC or New York firms making $246K or better. Yes, he knows how mindboggling boring it can be. He's heard it from me and all of my friends. Itis what it is. But it will get him set financially for life and after being an associate, he can find a better path should he want it. There are many other things that law graduates can do. Many

A law degree closes doors outside of law. Any business front office role you get with a JD could’ve been much more easily obtained before committing three years to rote study.

Early Retired Biglaw partner here and I agree 100 percent. In my experience, the young lawyers starting out making the big money in Biglaw earn every penny of it and by and large are miserable, and the large majority of them who don’t end up on partner track stress out to the nth degree over what to do next and how to even come close to matching their Biglaw
salaries. And they do find many doors have closed firmly behind them. Most eventually do land on their feet and end up happy but it’s rarely easy and without scars financially and to their egos. They’re not used to failing and, yes, most Biglaw associates do fail.

I'm curious about other career paths. I have a pre-law kid who is eyeing Big Law only due to the money but I think it's a bad fit for her. I'm wondering about, instead, taking a job in a company or maybe Wall Street rather than a law fim. Is the lifestyle there appreciably different?

So she wouldn’t be taking those other jobs or the money? Ok . . .

A banker or PE principal in their 40s works less than a big law partner and they make more given comparable talent. They also didn’t waste three years of their 20s in school. There are plenty of FAANG employees in their 30s sitting on eight figures due to RSUs, mega backdoor Roth, and other benefits they gain with 50 hour work weeks and specialized skills.

Sorry; I wasn't at all clear with my question. She wants to go to law school and would probably do corporate or financial type law. I'm wondering about being a LAWYER in a corporation (Google or John Deere or whatever) or a LAWYER on wall street (for a bank). I assume the latter has crazy long hours to match the culture of the bankers, but I'm wondering if money and culture are different from Big Law? And in a non bank corporation (e.g., John Deere just because that's the first that came to mind), I assume hours are long but more normalish? Pay is lower but still good? I'm just guessing here. Anyone with actual knowledge?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Compared to 30 years ago, I think it's very true that there are comparatively few bright students interested in becoming lawyers today. Now, smart and ambitious students are much more likely to choose engineering, finance, pre-med, tech, and consulting.

People are much more informed today about the realities of being a lawyer. And neither the life nor the money seems that appealing to most. I think you really need to feel it as a vocation for it to make sense.

Agree! Very few of my daughter's Princeton class went to law school compared to consulting, IB and FinTech.

That’s because T14s, unlike the M7, discriminates against good schools. They want a 4.0 from southwest flyover state U instead of a 3.5 in math at Princeton. Any front office role in consulting, IB, and fintech straight out of undergrad is better than a V5 offer.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I did well in biglaw. Son is attending now. Entering Law, is, still the best upward mobility vehicle I know of aside from med school, which takes much longer. After clerking, he'll enter DC or New York firms making $246K or better. Yes, he knows how mindboggling boring it can be. He's heard it from me and all of my friends. Itis what it is. But it will get him set financially for life and after being an associate, he can find a better path should he want it. There are many other things that law graduates can do. Many

A law degree closes doors outside of law. Any business front office role you get with a JD could’ve been much more easily obtained before committing three years to rote study.

You could not be more wrong. Google “careers with a JD”.

Rather than read articles from self-promoting law school deans, go on LinkedIn. Search for 35 and under professionals in finance, consulting, and tech with a JD. Make sure it’s BB, MBB, and FAANG. The results will be far and few between. HLS students struggle to get into GS PWM, they’re not cutout for KKR or Citadel.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I did well in biglaw. Son is attending now. Entering Law, is, still the best upward mobility vehicle I know of aside from med school, which takes much longer. After clerking, he'll enter DC or New York firms making $246K or better. Yes, he knows how mindboggling boring it can be. He's heard it from me and all of my friends. Itis what it is. But it will get him set financially for life and after being an associate, he can find a better path should he want it. There are many other things that law graduates can do. Many

Only true if you get into T14. Otherwise you won’t even get an interview at most biglaw firms.

I can’t necessarily refute but I can anecdote and it seems that decent law schools in good legal markets are also strong feeders to BigLaw.

Know a girl at Fordham with offers from Latham and another big firm and she isn’t top of the class or law review or whatever. She says many in her class are also getting good offers.

Now, I doubt she would have many options if she wanted to go to SV, but it seems recruiting is strong in NYC.

The data is out there in spades. Don’t go to Fordham to enter big law unless you think sub 50% odds are okay. If it doesn’t pan out you’ve wasted your youth and a ton of tuition dollars. Bad luck, roll again!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I did well in biglaw. Son is attending now. Entering Law, is, still the best upward mobility vehicle I know of aside from med school, which takes much longer. After clerking, he'll enter DC or New York firms making $246K or better. Yes, he knows how mindboggling boring it can be. He's heard it from me and all of my friends. Itis what it is. But it will get him set financially for life and after being an associate, he can find a better path should he want it. There are many other things that law graduates can do. Many

A law degree closes doors outside of law. Any business front office role you get with a JD could’ve been much more easily obtained before committing three years to rote study.

Early Retired Biglaw partner here and I agree 100 percent. In my experience, the young lawyers starting out making the big money in Biglaw earn every penny of it and by and large are miserable, and the large majority of them who don’t end up on partner track stress out to the nth degree over what to do next and how to even come close to matching their Biglaw
salaries. And they do find many doors have closed firmly behind them. Most eventually do land on their feet and end up happy but it’s rarely easy and without scars financially and to their egos. They’re not used to failing and, yes, most Biglaw associates do fail.

I'm curious about other career paths. I have a pre-law kid who is eyeing Big Law only due to the money but I think it's a bad fit for her. I'm wondering about, instead, taking a job in a company or maybe Wall Street rather than a law fim. Is the lifestyle there appreciably different?

So she wouldn’t be taking those other jobs or the money? Ok . . .

A banker or PE principal in their 40s works less than a big law partner and they make more given comparable talent. They also didn’t waste three years of their 20s in school. There are plenty of FAANG employees in their 30s sitting on eight figures due to RSUs, mega backdoor Roth, and other benefits they gain with 50 hour work weeks and specialized skills.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I did well in biglaw. Son is attending now. Entering Law, is, still the best upward mobility vehicle I know of aside from med school, which takes much longer. After clerking, he'll enter DC or New York firms making $246K or better. Yes, he knows how mindboggling boring it can be. He's heard it from me and all of my friends. Itis what it is. But it will get him set financially for life and after being an associate, he can find a better path should he want it. There are many other things that law graduates can do. Many

A law degree closes doors outside of law. Any business front office role you get with a JD could’ve been much more easily obtained before committing three years to rote study.

Early Retired Biglaw partner here and I agree 100 percent. In my experience, the young lawyers starting out making the big money in Biglaw earn every penny of it and by and large are miserable, and the large majority of them who don’t end up on partner track stress out to the nth degree over what to do next and how to even come close to matching their Biglaw
salaries. And they do find many doors have closed firmly behind them. Most eventually do land on their feet and end up happy but it’s rarely easy and without scars financially and to their egos. They’re not used to failing and, yes, most Biglaw associates do fail.

I'm curious about other career paths. I have a pre-law kid who is eyeing Big Law only due to the money but I think it's a bad fit for her. I'm wondering about, instead, taking a job in a company or maybe Wall Street rather than a law fim. Is the lifestyle there appreciably different?

So she wouldn’t be taking those other jobs or the money? Ok . . .

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I did well in biglaw. Son is attending now. Entering Law, is, still the best upward mobility vehicle I know of aside from med school, which takes much longer. After clerking, he'll enter DC or New York firms making $246K or better. Yes, he knows how mindboggling boring it can be. He's heard it from me and all of my friends. Itis what it is. But it will get him set financially for life and after being an associate, he can find a better path should he want it. There are many other things that law graduates can do. Many

A law degree closes doors outside of law. Any business front office role you get with a JD could’ve been much more easily obtained before committing three years to rote study.

Early Retired Biglaw partner here and I agree 100 percent. In my experience, the young lawyers starting out making the big money in Biglaw earn every penny of it and by and large are miserable, and the large majority of them who don’t end up on partner track stress out to the nth degree over what to do next and how to even come close to matching their Biglaw
salaries. And they do find many doors have closed firmly behind them. Most eventually do land on their feet and end up happy but it’s rarely easy and without scars financially and to their egos. They’re not used to failing and, yes, most Biglaw associates do fail.

I'm curious about other career paths. I have a pre-law kid who is eyeing Big Law only due to the money but I think it's a bad fit for her. I'm wondering about, instead, taking a job in a company or maybe Wall Street rather than a law fim. Is the lifestyle there appreciably different?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I did well in biglaw. Son is attending now. Entering Law, is, still the best upward mobility vehicle I know of aside from med school, which takes much longer. After clerking, he'll enter DC or New York firms making $246K or better. Yes, he knows how mindboggling boring it can be. He's heard it from me and all of my friends. Itis what it is. But it will get him set financially for life and after being an associate, he can find a better path should he want it. There are many other things that law graduates can do. Many

Only true if you get into T14. Otherwise you won’t even get an interview at most biglaw firms.

True yet T14 is pretty easy to get from yop undergrad.
T14 is the most common destination for law from kids' ivy even averageish 3.8/Lsat 169 kids get into lower T14. Big5 is what the 3.9/171+ chase (Y, H, S, Penn, Chicago). Majority use ED to one of the T14, ivy advises it for most

This is just not true. A 169 on the LSAT makes you a long shot for a T14 regardless of where you go to college. Law schools don’t practice “holistic” admissions the way undergraduate schools do and place a great deal of emphasis on the LSAT — more than anything else. Going to a top undergrad doesn’t get you a pass, especially with a 3.8 GPA. Just google the numbers for the schools. They’re plain to see.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I did well in biglaw. Son is attending now. Entering Law, is, still the best upward mobility vehicle I know of aside from med school, which takes much longer. After clerking, he'll enter DC or New York firms making $246K or better. Yes, he knows how mindboggling boring it can be. He's heard it from me and all of my friends. Itis what it is. But it will get him set financially for life and after being an associate, he can find a better path should he want it. There are many other things that law graduates can do. Many

A law degree closes doors outside of law. Any business front office role you get with a JD could’ve been much more easily obtained before committing three years to rote study.

Early Retired Biglaw partner here and I agree 100 percent. In my experience, the young lawyers starting out making the big money in Biglaw earn every penny of it and by and large are miserable, and the large majority of them who don’t end up on partner track stress out to the nth degree over what to do next and how to even come close to matching their Biglaw
salaries. And they do find many doors have closed firmly behind them. Most eventually do land on their feet and end up happy but it’s rarely easy and without scars financially and to their egos. They’re not used to failing and, yes, most Biglaw associates do fail.

There will always be lawyers

Will be interesting with the demographic cliff looming how that'll affect law school admissions and Big Law recruiting in 5-10 years

^ above

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I did well in biglaw. Son is attending now. Entering Law, is, still the best upward mobility vehicle I know of aside from med school, which takes much longer. After clerking, he'll enter DC or New York firms making $246K or better. Yes, he knows how mindboggling boring it can be. He's heard it from me and all of my friends. Itis what it is. But it will get him set financially for life and after being an associate, he can find a better path should he want it. There are many other things that law graduates can do. Many

Only true if you get into T14. Otherwise you won’t even get an interview at most biglaw firms.

I posted below. Not getting into biglaw can be the best thing for one’s career

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I did well in biglaw. Son is attending now. Entering Law, is, still the best upward mobility vehicle I know of aside from med school, which takes much longer. After clerking, he'll enter DC or New York firms making $246K or better. Yes, he knows how mindboggling boring it can be. He's heard it from me and all of my friends. Itis what it is. But it will get him set financially for life and after being an associate, he can find a better path should he want it. There are many other things that law graduates can do. Many

Only true if you get into T14. Otherwise you won’t even get an interview at most biglaw firms.

I can’t necessarily refute but I can anecdote and it seems that decent law schools in good legal markets are also strong feeders to BigLaw.

Know a girl at Fordham with offers from Latham and another big firm and she isn’t top of the class or law review or whatever. She says many in her class are also getting good offers.

Now, I doubt she would have many options if she wanted to go to SV, but it seems recruiting is strong in NYC.

Are any of you lawyers? Biglaw is churn and burn for most associates. They do not want you to stay. They do not want you to learn any truly valuable skills that you could take elsewhere. They want you to bill time and make them wealthy.

Stop obsessing over biglaw and the right lawschools. It is far more lucrative *long term* to find a smaller to medium sized practice where you will be more hands on and learn to rain make. If you can do that, you can walk in many other places, including biglaw as a partner.