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Anonymous wrote:You should never speak negatively about the children’s dad in front of them.

+1

but to objectively say:
Dad left for mistress
Dad stopped paying any bills
Dad is trying to take the bank account that was solely meant for kids expenses

is all objective information. It does more harm to cover up his secrets and lies

No. That is not “objective” and is deeply damaging to children. They do not need to know details. Speak from the “I” — “I can’t afford that” covers a lot.

It is objective, unless you don’t know what that word means. Facts are fine to share with children. How is saying “dad stopped paying the mortgage and moved in with his mistress” not factual?

I didn’t say it wasn’t factual, I said it wasn’t objective. Children don’t need to hear this. “I can’t afford the mortgage any more” is fine. You don’t need to comment on dad’s “mistress.”

They are still objective statements. Objective statements are based in fact and free from opinion. Dad stopped paying the bills = objective and factual. Nothing wrong with what pp suggested.

Of course there is. Kids don’t need you commenting on dad’s relationships/cheating/whatever. If she said “Dad is living with Valerie” or whatever, that is objective. But doesn’t really need your spin on it, because they already know that.

...if Valerie is the mistress it's still objective. No spin needed. If she said "Dad is living with that gold digging whore Valerie" I'd agree with you. But to simply lay out the other facts is fine IMO. Different strokes I guess.

“Dad stopped paying bills” or “dad is spending the kids money” are not objective facts. They involve clear subjective assumptions about whose bills they are to pay, or why those accounts are ringfenced, and two people can disagree on those facts. One person may certainly be at a more rational place in their opinion, but it’s still subjective.

How is "Dad stopped paying the bills" not objective? If he literally has stopped paying then it seems pretty accurate. Why are you arguing english semantics (incorrectly)?

Anonymous wrote:I'm going though the same exact thing OP with my ex wife. In fact now I am wondering if she has a hidden mental health illness. Or does divorce turn some people into monsters?

I wonder the same thing all the time.

We are civil but the kids know and see that we don't like each other at all. They are fine.

OP here just checking back in after a long day. I appreciate all the support and I’m getting some in incredibly helpful ideas and thoughtful responses. It truly is a lot of food for thought on how to better navigate. I particularly like the kickboxing idea!

I don’t really want to out myself with too much detail, but I can say mediation has been attempted for a lot more than four hours, and I don’t think it’s going to work.

And when I say that we are very far apart on a financial resolution, what I mean is that STBX has taken money from me and I would like to have it back. This isn’t about trying to live in a mansion while they live in a shed out back, I would just like to have some cash back into accounts that have been wiped out.

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Anonymous wrote:You should never speak negatively about the children’s dad in front of them.

+1

but to objectively say:
Dad left for mistress
Dad stopped paying any bills
Dad is trying to take the bank account that was solely meant for kids expenses

is all objective information. It does more harm to cover up his secrets and lies

No. That is not “objective” and is deeply damaging to children. They do not need to know details. Speak from the “I” — “I can’t afford that” covers a lot.

It is objective, unless you don’t know what that word means. Facts are fine to share with children. How is saying “dad stopped paying the mortgage and moved in with his mistress” not factual?

I didn’t say it wasn’t factual, I said it wasn’t objective. Children don’t need to hear this. “I can’t afford the mortgage any more” is fine. You don’t need to comment on dad’s “mistress.”

They are still objective statements. Objective statements are based in fact and free from opinion. Dad stopped paying the bills = objective and factual. Nothing wrong with what pp suggested.

There are a lot of facts in the world that we try to shield our children from. Do you not understand that? That's part of being a parent. So your desire to show your kids what a piece of shit their father is, while it may be factual, is not good parenting.

Agreed. After all, what benefit does it achieve telling the kids “dad stopped paying the bills?” I can’t think of any way that helps anything at all. It does inject instability and insecurity into their minds.

I would prefer saying: “divorce is really hard for grown ups. We get used to splitting expenses and then we have to find a new way to manage. We don’t always agree on the new way. Honestly, sometimes that makes me mad. But, I also know that we will be ok.” In other words, backing up and providing a more measured perspective instead of just throwing an accusation.

Anonymous wrote:I would love to know the answer to this. Similar situation but we’re not even to the financial part and are stuck on time. DH wants time with the kids but then never actually rearranges his schedule to make it work and doesn’t show up to events he promises to be at. I have to pick up the emotional mess it creates and it’s really hard not to shred him to pieces in front of the kids, but also hard to make excuses for him. I know the financial stuff will be just plain vile.

I think the hardest part is having to convey to the kids the apologies that their father really should be giving. I frequently find myself in that position and it is not fair but it feels like one of the parents needs to acknowledge how messed up things are.

Don’t do this anymore. It’s not fair to you and it’s got to be confusing for the kids if you’re always making up excuses that are clearly not true.

If your ex tells your kid he’ll be at their soccer game and then doesn’t show up, just acknowledge your child’s disappointment and be their safe space to feel sad. It’s okay to say “I know you really wanted dad to be there and it’s okay to feel sad he missed your game.” Be their safe place to be upset without fanning the flame by talking bad about him. But you also don’t need to create a narrative about how he got stuck at work or got a flat tire or whatever BS excuse.

His relationship with your kids is not yours to manage. You’re here to help them process their feelings and to create the support/stability they need.

From the title I thought you were in enraged at Starbucks, and I was here to agree with you

I'm going though the same exact thing OP with my ex wife. In fact now I am wondering if she has a hidden mental health illness. Or does divorce turn some people into monsters?

Anonymous wrote:I felt this way about my xH for many reasons, including financial (he also does not care one bit about taking care of the kids financially and has actually been trying to talk them out of going to college because he doesn’t want to spend his hobby money on it).

The best advice I got was to act very bored by him. Someone explained it to think back to when you were a teenager and had to go to family functions, how boring you thought all these old adults are. Or when you were single and went on dates with extremely boring men. Not in an outright rude way, just in a totally disinterested way. Adopting that attitude saved me, especially while we were still living together.

Ha, yes. I try to see how much I can get by with only responding, "Oh, bummer" or "No way" to everything he says. Eventually he gives up and seeks attention from someone else.

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Anonymous wrote:Don't cover up for him. Tell them you know it's sad and disappointing he did not follow through but don't make excuses.
Making his excuses is buying into the mess.
Keep clear. Acknowledge the kids' feelings but don't make his apologies.

Np. Good advice. I’m 10 years divorced and I covered for my ex with my kids for years. High road and all. Then he decides to be more involved up a number of years later and bashed me to the kids

There's a wide middle ground between making excuses for someone and bashing them yourself.

Now how to walk that perfectly when your kids come to you crying because their other parent is bashing YOU to the kids? That...I don't know. My kids are so tired of hearing "I'm sorry. That's an issue between us and you shouldn't have to hear about it." But at least I'm not covering for the jerk.

Sorry PP! Yes high road is hard and tbh I regret it. I should have gotten to certain people before XH did and made up stuff and ruined relationships for me. Pure lies. And now they won’t even talk to me. That being said… I work with a therapist to understand anyone who believes lies like that either 1) has their own issues and 2) is not worth having in my life.

People believe whatever they're told. Life would be too hard if people had to judge if everything they heard was the truth. So they believe the first thing they hear and if it's a lie it's much harder proving it if you come second. That's why the state always goes first in a trial. I agree they're not worth having in your life.

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Anonymous wrote:You should never speak negatively about the children’s dad in front of them.

+1

but to objectively say:
Dad left for mistress
Dad stopped paying any bills
Dad is trying to take the bank account that was solely meant for kids expenses

is all objective information. It does more harm to cover up his secrets and lies

No. That is not “objective” and is deeply damaging to children. They do not need to know details. Speak from the “I” — “I can’t afford that” covers a lot.

It is objective, unless you don’t know what that word means. Facts are fine to share with children. How is saying “dad stopped paying the mortgage and moved in with his mistress” not factual?

I didn’t say it wasn’t factual, I said it wasn’t objective. Children don’t need to hear this. “I can’t afford the mortgage any more” is fine. You don’t need to comment on dad’s “mistress.”

They are still objective statements. Objective statements are based in fact and free from opinion. Dad stopped paying the bills = objective and factual. Nothing wrong with what pp suggested.

There are a lot of facts in the world that we try to shield our children from. Do you not understand that? That's part of being a parent. So your desire to show your kids what a piece of shit their father is, while it may be factual, is not good parenting.

Anonymous wrote:I am in the same place OP. It was first fighting over custody and now $. He has lied so much, including to my family and now my relationship with my family is forever ruined.

It is so heavy and dark and I tried to be open about it with friends but very quickly ran into the fact that most married women cannot hold space for something like this. Now I only talk about it with my therapist, my partner and my best friend, and any other divorcees who know what it’s like and have been through their own trauma.

It’s been disheartening because everyone is all #metoo and girl power and then if you are actually in an abusive relationship, everyone kind of shields their eyes. If the XH makes money or is a halfway decent dad, no one cares what he’s done. You are now poorer in their eyes and women always have to do the childcare anyway, so you have no value to them.

But as a result, I’m starting to come out of the disillusionment phase, and am so much stronger, wiser and know who my real friends are. You will get there too.

Sending you an air kiss.

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Spoiler .. Your kids probably already know you hate their father.

Every divorced woman hates their ex husband.

It’s normal.

I don't hate my ex. Sometimes I wish I did. He did me wrong but I still enjoy his company.

I don't think you have to pretend everything is fine, OP, though what you tell the kids depends on their ages. I think it is fine, even with young kids, to say, "Right now I'm feeling angry at your dad," or "I feel sad and disappointed."

Adults can have emotions! But model how to handle them. There is no age at which your kids need to hear you say "Your dad is a lying POS." Keep the details private (not secret, private!). If the kids ask questions, give age appropriate answers. Also, give the kids LOTS of reassurance. Kids can feel scared that their lives will fall apart, that both parents will abandon them, that the divorce is their fault. No matter how sh*tty your ex is, keep telling them you love them, things will be okay, you will get through any tough times, and their dad loves them.

If they say, "If Dad loves us them why is he [leaving/not paying for something/not spending time with them, whatever]?" it is fine to say, "Your dad loves you but he's a human being who is struggling and does not always get things right. I know you are sad/mad about X and so am I."

Anonymous wrote:OP mad she not getting paid.

PP mad he tired and worn out and got fleeced after cheating.