Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think so for the schools that have historically been test optional for large swaths (athletes, donors, legacy) or others. Schools like the below:

Duke
Northwestern
UChicago
Columbia
UCLA
Cal
Vanderbilt
Notre Dame
Michigan
WashU
USC

Look at all the SLACs...there is no scrutiny there AND they are almost all uber TO (Amherst, Pomona, Bowdoin, Midd, Davidson, Barnard etc)

Northwestern and Notre Dame only admit top stat kids. They aren't admitting the test optional kids, just the high scores

? Then why would the be test optional. Over 31% of northwestern’s admits were test optional. Only 30% of note dame class even submitted test scores.

Actually over 60% of ND admits submitted scores. Athletes, FGLI, etc. make up most of the balance. Legacy doesn’t weigh anymore - there is an oversaturation of high stat legacy kids.

You sound like a bored idiot who just grabs the online stats to make your point. You need to know the school. Legacy is the single most important factor at Notre Dame. Different than other schools.
Very very different.

Tell that to my niece, a 1510 SAT / 3.85 UW (private) legacy applicant -- whose parent donated annually, though not high dollar amounts, and volunteered with local alumni group for 30 years.

Apparently, legacy still matters at ND but not as much as it used to . . . .

Let's do some calculation.
Penn is reinstating test required this coming year.
Class of 2029, median score is 1540. 51% submitting SAT.
Their true median score is probably 1490.
That's 50 point gap to make up when they switch to test required.

To maintain their median, Penn can potentially reduce the number of low score admits (previously non-submitters).
However, these are institutional priorities, i.e., hooked. It's unlikely Penn will reduce too many of them.
The other way to maintain the median score is to increase the test scores of unhooked admits.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It always was at the schools my kids applied, are applying to.

All were not required for my 2024, but if he didn’t have top scores he would never have gotten in unhooked RD to all the schools he did- the T10s, 20s because optional at those schools weren’t for kids like him- wealthy area, good high school, etc. Over 80-85% admitted submitted scores and optional was for athletes and other “special” admits.

My 2026’s top choice is test required, so yes very important—-esp. with Trump reviewing the data …barf.

^100% this. If your profile means you have the means to test prep, test, etc. They want the scores at the top schools (required or not). TO is only used to capture special interest at T10/20 (TO)- athletes, specific groups, etc. Everyone else admitted submits scores now.

I have a kid in the recruitment process for D3 baseball at NESCAC and similar schools. All of the coaches want to know your scores before submitting pre-reads, even at TO schools. Athletes cannot hide less than stellar scores, even if schools might give them more leeway if they are below the school average.

Not true. My DD is in recruitment process for X country/track and she already passed the pre-reads TO since she has never taken the SAT. in our experience the TO D3 schools don't care. They're just going by her grades and the 3 AP test scores she has (all 5s but she only took them in humanities courses).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Educators hate the College Board and the choke hold they have on people who don’t understand what they’ve done to education.

Listen to educators instead of championing the company trying to turn education into one high stakes test after another, like in other countries.

All studies point to the SAT score being the best predictor of a student’s success in college.

There’s a correlation between between the SAT and FRESHMAN YEAR GPA.

That’s it. That’s the research.

this is not what the MIT data showed. For MIT.

there is no data across all colleges.

That’s not what the UC data showed either. Or the UT data. Kuncel and Sackett at the University of Minnesota looked deeply into this using millions of datapoints from the college board and came to the same conclusion; the SAT is the best single predictor of college success. SAT and GPA is the best overall predictor. The data is pretty conclusive; people just don’t want to accept it.

Define success in college.

The studies are tied to GPA. So if you have a B student, they aren't a success?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think so for the schools that have historically been test optional for large swaths (athletes, donors, legacy) or others. Schools like the below:

Duke
Northwestern
UChicago
Columbia
UCLA
Cal
Vanderbilt
Notre Dame
Michigan
WashU
USC

Look at all the SLACs...there is no scrutiny there AND they are almost all uber TO (Amherst, Pomona, Bowdoin, Midd, Davidson, Barnard etc)

Northwestern and Notre Dame only admit top stat kids. They aren't admitting the test optional kids, just the high scores

? Then why would the be test optional. Over 31% of northwestern’s admits were test optional. Only 30% of note dame class even submitted test scores.

Actually over 60% of ND admits submitted scores. Athletes, FGLI, etc. make up most of the balance. Legacy doesn’t weigh anymore - there is an oversaturation of high stat legacy kids.

You sound like a bored idiot who just grabs the online stats to make your point. You need to know the school. Legacy is the single most important factor at Notre Dame. Different than other schools.
Very very different.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think so for the schools that have historically been test optional for large swaths (athletes, donors, legacy) or others. Schools like the below:

Duke
Northwestern
UChicago
Columbia
UCLA
Cal
Vanderbilt
Notre Dame
Michigan
WashU
USC

Look at all the SLACs...there is no scrutiny there AND they are almost all uber TO (Amherst, Pomona, Bowdoin, Midd, Davidson, Barnard etc)

Northwestern and Notre Dame only admit top stat kids. They aren't admitting the test optional kids, just the high scores

? Then why would the be test optional. Over 31% of northwestern’s admits were test optional. Only 30% of note dame class even submitted test scores.

Actually over 60% of ND admits submitted scores. Athletes, FGLI, etc. make up most of the balance. Legacy doesn’t weigh anymore - there is an oversaturation of high stat legacy kids.

Here is the link to Notre Dame's Common Data Set: https://www3.nd.edu/~instres/CDS/2024-2025/CDS_2024-2025.pdf
According to their data, 684 submitted SAT scores and 541 submitted ACT scores, so 58% of enrolled students.

You can't just add those numbers. some kids submit both ACT and SAT, and you're counting them twice.

This.
Our private school CCO prepared an updated list of TO admits with at or near 50% (or more) admitted TO students. ND was on the list.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Educators hate the College Board and the choke hold they have on people who don’t understand what they’ve done to education.

Listen to educators instead of championing the company trying to turn education into one high stakes test after another, like in other countries.

All studies point to the SAT score being the best predictor of a student’s success in college.

There’s a correlation between between the SAT and FRESHMAN YEAR GPA.

That’s it. That’s the research.

this is not what the MIT data showed. For MIT.

there is no data across all colleges.

to be clear, MIT showed SATs were best predictor for students success period. not just first year

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Educators hate the College Board and the choke hold they have on people who don’t understand what they’ve done to education.

Listen to educators instead of championing the company trying to turn education into one high stakes test after another, like in other countries.

All studies point to the SAT score being the best predictor of a student’s success in college.

There’s a correlation between between the SAT and FRESHMAN YEAR GPA.

That’s it. That’s the research.

this is not what the MIT data showed. For MIT.

there is no data across all colleges.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It always was at the schools my kids applied, are applying to.

All were not required for my 2024, but if he didn’t have top scores he would never have gotten in unhooked RD to all the schools he did- the T10s, 20s because optional at those schools weren’t for kids like him- wealthy area, good high school, etc. Over 80-85% admitted submitted scores and optional was for athletes and other “special” admits.

My 2026’s top choice is test required, so yes very important—-esp. with Trump reviewing the data …barf.

^100% this. If your profile means you have the means to test prep, test, etc. They want the scores at the top schools (required or not). TO is only used to capture special interest at T10/20 (TO)- athletes, specific groups, etc. Everyone else admitted submits scores now.

I have a kid in the recruitment process for D3 baseball at NESCAC and similar schools. All of the coaches want to know your scores before submitting pre-reads, even at TO schools. Athletes cannot hide less than stellar scores, even if schools might give them more leeway if they are below the school average.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think so for the schools that have historically been test optional for large swaths (athletes, donors, legacy) or others. Schools like the below:

Duke
Northwestern
UChicago
Columbia
UCLA
Cal
Vanderbilt
Notre Dame
Michigan
WashU
USC

Look at all the SLACs...there is no scrutiny there AND they are almost all uber TO (Amherst, Pomona, Bowdoin, Midd, Davidson, Barnard etc)

Northwestern and Notre Dame only admit top stat kids. They aren't admitting the test optional kids, just the high scores

? Then why would the be test optional. Over 31% of northwestern’s admits were test optional. Only 30% of note dame class even submitted test scores.

Actually over 60% of ND admits submitted scores. Athletes, FGLI, etc. make up most of the balance. Legacy doesn’t weigh anymore - there is an oversaturation of high stat legacy kids.

Here is the link to Notre Dame's Common Data Set: https://www3.nd.edu/~instres/CDS/2024-2025/CDS_2024-2025.pdf
According to their data, 684 submitted SAT scores and 541 submitted ACT scores, so 58% of enrolled students.

You can't just add those numbers. some kids submit both ACT and SAT, and you're counting them twice.

a combination of SAT/ACT and AP scores should validate GPA and the best predictor of success in college. Unless college grades are inflated and the exams are easy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Educators hate the College Board and the choke hold they have on people who don’t understand what they’ve done to education.

Listen to educators instead of championing the company trying to turn education into one high stakes test after another, like in other countries.

Just about every other country does this and it for good reason.
Some of these countries even have race based affirmative action but they still base admissions decisions largely on test scores.

American parents would lose their minds at the tracking that happens early on in other countries. Tests determine whether you even get your access certain tracks in what we call middle and high school. No way off the track if you aren’t deemed talented in STEM at 12 years old.

Even in the arts, you get a few seconds of a judge’s time to determine if you’re allowed to go to art school.

There’s a reason wealthy people in other countries do whatever they can to get their kids into US and Canadian colleges.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Educators hate the College Board and the choke hold they have on people who don’t understand what they’ve done to education.

Listen to educators instead of championing the company trying to turn education into one high stakes test after another, like in other countries.

All studies point to the SAT score being the best predictor of a student’s success in college.

There’s a correlation between between the SAT and FRESHMAN YEAR GPA.

That’s it. That’s the research.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think so for the schools that have historically been test optional for large swaths (athletes, donors, legacy) or others. Schools like the below:

Duke
Northwestern
UChicago
Columbia
UCLA
Cal
Vanderbilt
Notre Dame
Michigan
WashU
USC

Look at all the SLACs...there is no scrutiny there AND they are almost all uber TO (Amherst, Pomona, Bowdoin, Midd, Davidson, Barnard etc)

Vandy and WashU always love high score applicants albeit still TO.
Columbia just settled with Trump. Unless they want to lose their funding again.

Agree the chilling effect would be most pronounced on test required schools.
Cornell
Brown
Dartmouth
Penn
Georgetown
Johns Hopkins

So what?

It's hard to get accepted to those schools anyways. Tests won't significantly change that dynamic.

If a high score raises your odds of admission from 2% to 4%, it doubles your odds of admission.

Probability not odds

Correct, thank you