Anonymous wrote:I feel so horribly for the family of the swimmer at the center of this ridiculous fiasco. Have you ever even considered putting yourself in their shoes?

They have a child who is likely struggling with their identity but also wants to swim. I bet they just want the best for their kid and to help their child grow into a confident happy human who spends their time participating in activities that make them happy and grow their confidence at a time when they may be doubting an awful lot about themselves.

And then comes along a self-righteous, bigoted garbage human who feels that it is his right to publicly tear it all down.

You sir, are the worst kind of a$$hole there is.

Then they should have taken that up with the powers that be to make sure it was ok to bend the rules in a sex segregated event where times mattered. It’s not a free for all based on the whims of a kid to decide who they are on a given day.

Anonymous wrote:I encourage everyone on this thread to dedicate time to watching this from John Oliver. I leaned hard toward not wanting trans kids in girls sports, but watching this made me question my beliefs and become much less worked up about it

NP. Most of this is wrong or at best cherry-picked and misleading. It’s been torn apart by sports analysts.

I feel so horribly for the family of the swimmer at the center of this ridiculous fiasco. Have you ever even considered putting yourself in their shoes?

They have a child who is likely struggling with their identity but also wants to swim. I bet they just want the best for their kid and to help their child grow into a confident happy human who spends their time participating in activities that make them happy and grow their confidence at a time when they may be doubting an awful lot about themselves.

And then comes along a self-righteous, bigoted garbage human who feels that it is his right to publicly tear it all down.

You sir, are the worst kind of a$$hole there is.

Anonymous wrote:

1) Co-ed practices and teams, and Co-ed competition when it doesn't unfairly disadvantage girls

2) When competition is sex segregated, trans girls should compete in the boys division

I think this will help accomplish the goal of inclusivity while also normalizing the idea that in direct, head-to-head competition, trans girls/women need to be in the boys category for fairness (not as punishment or to ostracize anyone).

So let me ask you this then - if the difference you are concerned about is biology and strength/size, I assume you still think that my son, who is about to turn 17 and is 5'7" and 115 lbs, should compete with males, right? If so, why?

Because inch for inch and pound for pound, he will be able to beat the girls if he puts in the effort (and not even too much of that). Testosterone, larger lung capacity, more upper body strength, less body fat, less hormone fluctuation...

You, my friend, are a creep.

1) Co-ed practices and teams, and Co-ed competition when it doesn't unfairly disadvantage girls

2) When competition is sex segregated, trans girls should compete in the boys division

I think this will help accomplish the goal of inclusivity while also normalizing the idea that in direct, head-to-head competition, trans girls/women need to be in the boys category for fairness (not as punishment or to ostracize anyone).

So let me ask you this then - if the difference you are concerned about is biology and strength/size, I assume you still think that my son, who is about to turn 17 and is 5'7" and 115 lbs, should compete with males, right? If so, why?

I only somewhat agree. They matter in athletics in some contexts. I don't think it generally makes sense to have people born male competing with people born female after the individuals have gone through puberty when the level of competition is serious. I think it is fine at younger ages at the rec/just for fun level.


I used to feel this way but then a friend pointed out that this just emphasizes the difference as kids go through puberty and a child must move from the girls division to the boys division.

If they are on puberty blockers, I don't think they should necessarily have to, at the rec level.

Anonymous wrote:I encourage everyone on this thread to dedicate time to watching this from John Oliver. I leaned hard toward not wanting trans kids in girls sports, but watching this made me question my beliefs and become much less worked up about it

Great video.

Hopefully OP and others take the time to watch.

Anonymous wrote:

And while these physiological differences don't matter in the vast majority of situations, they do matter in athletics, especially given the history of women's sports and the efforts we've had to go to as a society to ensure women have access to athletic opportunities.

I only somewhat agree. They matter in athletics in some contexts. I don't think it generally makes sense to have people born male competing with people born female after the individuals have gone through puberty when the level of competition is serious. I think it is fine at younger ages at the rec/just for fun level.

I used to feel this way but then a friend pointed out that this just emphasizes the difference as kids go through puberty and a child must move from the girls division to the boys division.

I think we should normalize two things for rec sports, one of which is already present in summer swim:

1) Co-ed practices and teams, and Co-ed competition when it doesn't unfairly disadvantage girls

2) When competition is sex segregated, trans girls should compete in the boys division

I think this will help accomplish the goal of inclusivity while also normalizing the idea that in direct, head-to-head competition, trans girls/women need to be in the boys category for fairness (not as punishment or to ostracize anyone).

Summer swim is already ideally set up for this. The meet in question here even had mixed heat with boys and girls swimming at the same time, and the categorization by sex was just for times. So this would be a really easy situation to categorize a trans girl with the boys for times without in any way impacting her experience as a girl at the meet.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And while these physiological differences don't matter in the vast majority of situations, they do matter in athletics, especially given the history of women's sports and the efforts we've had to go to as a society to ensure women have access to athletic opportunities.

I only somewhat agree. They matter in athletics in some contexts. I don't think it generally makes sense to have people born male competing with people born female after the individuals have gone through puberty when the level of competition is serious. I think it is fine at younger ages at the rec/just for fun level.

DP. I think what OP did was wrong, but if we are going to have sex segregated sports, and NVSL swim is sex segregated, then there needs to be consistency from the beginning. Perhaps some new events can be created at the “just for fun” level that are coed.

This entire meet was "just for fun". It had nothing to do with NVSL. It was a neighborhood mini-meet.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And while these physiological differences don't matter in the vast majority of situations, they do matter in athletics, especially given the history of women's sports and the efforts we've had to go to as a society to ensure women have access to athletic opportunities.

I only somewhat agree. They matter in athletics in some contexts. I don't think it generally makes sense to have people born male competing with people born female after the individuals have gone through puberty when the level of competition is serious. I think it is fine at younger ages at the rec/just for fun level.

DP. I think what OP did was wrong, but if we are going to have sex segregated sports, and NVSL swim is sex segregated, then there needs to be consistency from the beginning. Perhaps some new events can be created at the “just for fun” level that are coed.

Consistency at what cost? Who will enforce this consistency?

I encourage everyone on this thread to dedicate time to watching this from John Oliver. I leaned hard toward not wanting trans kids in girls sports, but watching this made me question my beliefs and become much less worked up about it

Anonymous wrote:

And while these physiological differences don't matter in the vast majority of situations, they do matter in athletics, especially given the history of women's sports and the efforts we've had to go to as a society to ensure women have access to athletic opportunities.

I only somewhat agree. They matter in athletics in some contexts. I don't think it generally makes sense to have people born male competing with people born female after the individuals have gone through puberty when the level of competition is serious. I think it is fine at younger ages at the rec/just for fun level.

DP. I think what OP did was wrong, but if we are going to have sex segregated sports, and NVSL swim is sex segregated, then there needs to be consistency from the beginning. Perhaps some new events can be created at the “just for fun” level that are coed.

Anonymous wrote:I cannot imagine acting this way. For what it is worth, I was really angry when my son's soccer team allowed a girl to practice with his MLS Next team. The reason is that it is a team for boys, and the team was already oversubscribed such that some male players could not be rostered for each game. It seemed very unfair. However, I cannot imagine harassing the young lady or embarrassing her in the way you did this swimmer. Your behavior was inappropriate.

+1

How can see not see how his behavior then - and now publicly defending his actions - is reprehensible?

As much as I believe that men have no place in women’s sports, and that boys should not be in girls sports, and that the gender ideology stuff is total BS, OP’s actions were a violation of NVSL rules.