Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd divorce.

Don't even bother with therapy.

OP: We’ve been talking about therapy (I see a therapist. He doesn’t.) as a couple, but I’ve just seen who is truly is so many times. We have so many conversations about “doing better the next time” we have a disagreement, and it’s so sad to me that “doing better” is just him not calling me names or threatening to divorce me.

He threatened to divorce you?? Oh hell no. Divorce him first. He doesn’t respect you. You don’t treat someone you love this way. Don’t even bother with therapy.

Agree w Pp

Couples therapy with an abuser does not work and is not advised by professionals.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unpopular opinion perhaps, but there is no excuse for name calling and being given the middle finger by your spouse. None. It doesn’t matter what you said first or what you did first. It doesn’t matter if you stood over his bed with a pot lid and wooden spoon to wake him up. It’s still not okay.
He doesn’t love you. That’s not love.

That’s. NOT. Love.

I agree with this. My parents marriage wasn't perfect, but my father never once cursed at my mother, or called her any names. He'd slam doors or cabinets, but that's it.

What a funky standard! Slam doors and cabinets, but don't raise a finger or say words...

I mean, is any of it "acceptable behavior"? No. But all of it is human behavior, and all humans get frustrated. It's unrealistic to expect them to never have ways of showing it.

It's not the behavior that is inherently problematic. It's that OP has expressed that she finds it disrespectful and upsetting, and that didn't motivate OP's spouse to shift. Personally, I'd view someone flipping me off as a sign of mild annoyance and immaturity; it wouldn't really phase me at all. Similarly, I don't really care about swears. But if you slam things around me, I'd interpret that as a sign of violent behavior, and that would upset me.

It's about OP's reaction to it, and how OP clearly communicated she didn't like it and spouse can't/won't stop.

I really disagree with this PP, who is, IMO, normalizing verbal and emotional abuse by saying the problem isn't the behavior it's that OP doesn't like it. OP, that is what this is -- abuse. This kind of abuse is often described as "coercive control," where the abuser uses foul language, criticism and/or physical behavior short of hitting as a way of getting the victim partner to modify their behavior in advance so as to avoid the verbal and emotional outbursts.

It *is* about the and that behavior is inherently problematic. It is not your responsibility to "motivate" your spouse to shift. And, being flipped off and swearing are not behaviors that anyone should tolerate in a relationship. All adults should be able to use their words to express concerns or disagreements in healthy ways. The fact that some (many?) adults don't have this skill doesn't mean you have to tolerate it.

Please take this seriously and read up on verbal abuse and coercive control, because it often escalates over time. I was with a verbal abuser for several years before he threatened to beat me. Because I stood up for myself, I thought it would stop, but of course, it happened again. I left the second time. (I feel like an idiot that I even wrote that sentence -- how could I, a very well-educated, well-resourced woman, knowledgeable about abuse, not have left at the first physical threat or even the first verbal abuse?)

Couples therapy with an abuser is not the standard of care and a therapist who would participate in that is not a good therapist. Please get your own individual therapist; they can help you work on yourself - setting effective boundaries, pursuing your own life goals so that you can be independent, considering when/how to leave, etc. You also have to learn to regulate your emotions and communicate in a healthy way. Your behavior is not the cause of your spouse's abuse, but we are each responsible for our own behavior and if you are being snide, etc., that needs to stop both for yourself and also as a model for your children.

And, speaking, of children, you are in deep delusion if you think your fights aren't affecting your kids, even if they are very young. You are modeling for them what kind of treatment they can expect from others and how they can expect to treat others. I personally grew up with a verbally abusive parent, and it affected me greatly -- contributing to my acceptance of abuse from future partners and really making me afraid to try things and afraid to make errors, thus really limiting me. Even as an adult, when people are angry at me (with or without reason), I just go straight to fright or flight and fawning. It's terrible.

https://www.theduluthmodel.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/PowerandControl.pdf

Let's be real -- it's very unlikely that your DH will change his behavior - abusers rarely do. Perhaps a tiny minority who really recognize their own behavior and its impact and really want to work on change, those abusers, with the help of extensive long term therapy, maybe they can make lasting changes. If your DH is unwilling to recognize his own behavior, be accountable and change, it is really not your job (and not within your power) to make him change. Yes, he might be "nice" for a few weeks or months, but he will always slip back to the abuse. That is the cycle of abuse. https://psychcentral.com/health/cycle-of-abuse#reconciliation

Healthy relationships are different. https://www.theduluthmodel.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Equality.pdf

Anonymous wrote:Every time my DH and I bicker even the slightest, he resorts to name calling and giving me the middle finger. We will have disagreements about who is dropping the baby at daycare that day, and he’ll end up calling me a psycho and giving me the middle finger.

He is constantly using insults that are specific to women and their mental health: psycho, rage case, hysterical, b*, etc. I have asked him time and time again to stop, especially with the very pointed mental health insults. I struggled with postpartum depression for months after our baby was born, and it is very fresh.

At this point, I’m tired of it. I’m tired of being called psycho for expressing any emotional response. I try my hardest to let his insults roll off my back, but maybe that’s why it keeps happening? Maybe I should show him what psycho looks like instead of just crying at the kitchen sink.

WWYD?

Yikes. He really can’t handle anything.

No more kids and divorce.

He is out of control and probably has some serious underlying issues as well.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every time my DH and I bicker even the slightest, he resorts to name calling and giving me the middle finger. We will have disagreements about who is dropping the baby at daycare that day, and he’ll end up calling me a psycho and giving me the middle finger.

He is constantly using insults that are specific to women and their mental health: psycho, rage case, hysterical, b*, etc. I have asked him time and time again to stop, especially with the very pointed mental health insults. I struggled with postpartum depression for months after our baby was born, and it is very fresh.

At this point, I’m tired of it. I’m tired of being called psycho for expressing any emotional response. I try my hardest to let his insults roll off my back, but maybe that’s why it keeps happening? Maybe I should show him what psycho looks like instead of just crying at the kitchen sink.

WWYD?

Well, I'd leave because I grew up in a home where no one ever did this. I'm maybe a little hyper sensitive to it, but it might just be the high self esteem of being a girl with a father who treats her mother right for 40+ years. I'm not being braggy, it was eye opening to me in my 20s that this is actually considered fairly normal and acceptable by a LARGE number of people. Its depressing. I had one longer term boyfriend who touched on this but yeah, I wouldn't cry at the kitchen sink. I'd book a hotel within 10 min and disappear. Not with kids but like 200 lbs of dogs and accouterments. Just, packed and gone. No return date.

I will say though that if this is the precursor to domestic violence that may or may not be the way. I knew it was all bluster but dont know your dynamic.

Before someone calls me out on this because I know they will, yes this is a privilege thing. I always made my own good money and that can solve a lot of "cool down" situations though it doesn’t change my opinion that yelling and curing at your supposed beloved is acceptable.

NP and as someone who grew up in a household with domestic violence, I didn’t realize it wasn’t normal. It was just my life. I saw it at my cousin’s house too so I assumed it was the same in every family. My mom told me we couldn’t tell anyone so my assumption was that this was a conversation every parent had with their kid and that we were all just being on our best behavior around friends and acquaintance.

So now that I am in a situation that I’ve slowly realized is emotional and verbal abuse, I can understand why I didn’t recognize it for a long time. And maybe why I was vulnerable to allowing someone to treat me badly early in our relationship. I don’t blame a single woman for being in this situation because many of us were raised in it. I’m glad that there are people out there that can’t imagine not leaving immediately because that gives me hope- it means there are whole swaths of society that think men treating women like this is utterly unacceptable. I hope that you are in my community and at my kids’ school and our pool and their sports, because I know that when we leave it is going to be rough.

Not PP but another PP who has never experienced this kind of abusive behavior. I'm really sorry for your experiences, and I truly hope you do have a community to assist you when you leave. I would if I knew you, for sure.

Can I ask you a question? You don't have to answer if you don't want to, but I've wondered about this recently since there have been multiple posts about people yelling/cursing at their significant others and the responses have been varied. Some people say it's not a big deal to curse at someone or they did something to deserve it. Those people I assume are mostly abusers themselves so they're trying to justify their behavior. But I also wonder if there is another group of responders who themselves have been abused and who therefore say it's not a big deal/downplay the severity of treating someone like this - if that's you is it because you want to believe that it is normal so that your life isn't abnormal? Is it a shame thing, like you want to somewhat defend the behavior, even though it may make you feel really bad when you're yelled at, because you don't want to believe that you're in a situation where someone is mistreating you and that that says something about you? (All it says, for the record, is what you wrote - that it's how you grew up. It emphatically does not say that you deserve it).

I'm asking because I truly hope that when people who have a history like yours see posts on here saying that it is not okay, under any circumstances, to yell/curse at your spouse, that you believe that there are lots of people out there who believe that and there are men out there who would never act like that. I know many of them, including my father and husband and brother. Women who think that behavior isn't acceptable would be your allies. Men who think that behavior is unacceptable would be your allies or your future partner. I just wish people who grew up with abuse being normalized would know that it's not ok and plenty of people feel that way and would never treat you like that. And, I hope you hear this - none of it is your fault. You don't deserve to be treated like that, ever.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every time my DH and I bicker even the slightest, he resorts to name calling and giving me the middle finger. We will have disagreements about who is dropping the baby at daycare that day, and he’ll end up calling me a psycho and giving me the middle finger.

He is constantly using insults that are specific to women and their mental health: psycho, rage case, hysterical, b*, etc. I have asked him time and time again to stop, especially with the very pointed mental health insults. I struggled with postpartum depression for months after our baby was born, and it is very fresh.

At this point, I’m tired of it. I’m tired of being called psycho for expressing any emotional response. I try my hardest to let his insults roll off my back, but maybe that’s why it keeps happening? Maybe I should show him what psycho looks like instead of just crying at the kitchen sink.

WWYD?

Well, I'd leave because I grew up in a home where no one ever did this. I'm maybe a little hyper sensitive to it, but it might just be the high self esteem of being a girl with a father who treats her mother right for 40+ years. I'm not being braggy, it was eye opening to me in my 20s that this is actually considered fairly normal and acceptable by a LARGE number of people. Its depressing. I had one longer term boyfriend who touched on this but yeah, I wouldn't cry at the kitchen sink. I'd book a hotel within 10 min and disappear. Not with kids but like 200 lbs of dogs and accouterments. Just, packed and gone. No return date.

I will say though that if this is the precursor to domestic violence that may or may not be the way. I knew it was all bluster but dont know your dynamic.

+1000

I need to give my parents way more credit for the way they raised me because I am SHOCKED by the amount of people who somehow think that this kind of behavior is remotely acceptable. My parents never raised their voices to each other, never. No one in my family ever called anyone names or swore at them. The idea that anyone would do that was and is inconceivable to me. That's not how you treat people, period. I've never been with a guy who would do any of this, and if I saw even a glimpse of it I'd be gone. Very happily married for 15 years with two kids.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every time my DH and I bicker even the slightest, he resorts to name calling and giving me the middle finger. We will have disagreements about who is dropping the baby at daycare that day, and he’ll end up calling me a psycho and giving me the middle finger.

He is constantly using insults that are specific to women and their mental health: psycho, rage case, hysterical, b*, etc. I have asked him time and time again to stop, especially with the very pointed mental health insults. I struggled with postpartum depression for months after our baby was born, and it is very fresh.

At this point, I’m tired of it. I’m tired of being called psycho for expressing any emotional response. I try my hardest to let his insults roll off my back, but maybe that’s why it keeps happening? Maybe I should show him what psycho looks like instead of just crying at the kitchen sink.

WWYD?

Ultimatum. Next time he does it, leave.

She's already said she'll do that a million times.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Was he like this when you married him?

This questions always gets asked. NP and no, otherwise they wouldn't have gotten married. Turns out my DH uses close family relationships and marriage as a "safe place" where he can "be himself." I was startled after marriage to see him let his guard down and show me how badly he treated both his family of origin and me.

So he treated his family well while you were dating?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every time my DH and I bicker even the slightest, he resorts to name calling and giving me the middle finger. We will have disagreements about who is dropping the baby at daycare that day, and he’ll end up calling me a psycho and giving me the middle finger.

He is constantly using insults that are specific to women and their mental health: psycho, rage case, hysterical, b*, etc. I have asked him time and time again to stop, especially with the very pointed mental health insults. I struggled with postpartum depression for months after our baby was born, and it is very fresh.

At this point, I’m tired of it. I’m tired of being called psycho for expressing any emotional response. I try my hardest to let his insults roll off my back, but maybe that’s why it keeps happening? Maybe I should show him what psycho looks like instead of just crying at the kitchen sink.

WWYD?

Well, I'd leave because I grew up in a home where no one ever did this. I'm maybe a little hyper sensitive to it, but it might just be the high self esteem of being a girl with a father who treats her mother right for 40+ years. I'm not being braggy, it was eye opening to me in my 20s that this is actually considered fairly normal and acceptable by a LARGE number of people. Its depressing. I had one longer term boyfriend who touched on this but yeah, I wouldn't cry at the kitchen sink. I'd book a hotel within 10 min and disappear. Not with kids but like 200 lbs of dogs and accouterments. Just, packed and gone. No return date.

I will say though that if this is the precursor to domestic violence that may or may not be the way. I knew it was all bluster but dont know your dynamic.

Before someone calls me out on this because I know they will, yes this is a privilege thing. I always made my own good money and that can solve a lot of "cool down" situations though it doesn’t change my opinion that yelling and curing at your supposed beloved is acceptable.

NP and as someone who grew up in a household with domestic violence, I didn’t realize it wasn’t normal. It was just my life. I saw it at my cousin’s house too so I assumed it was the same in every family. My mom told me we couldn’t tell anyone so my assumption was that this was a conversation every parent had with their kid and that we were all just being on our best behavior around friends and acquaintance.

So now that I am in a situation that I’ve slowly realized is emotional and verbal abuse, I can understand why I didn’t recognize it for a long time. And maybe why I was vulnerable to allowing someone to treat me badly early in our relationship. I don’t blame a single woman for being in this situation because many of us were raised in it. I’m glad that there are people out there that can’t imagine not leaving immediately because that gives me hope- it means there are whole swaths of society that think men treating women like this is utterly unacceptable. I hope that you are in my community and at my kids’ school and our pool and their sports, because I know that when we leave it is going to be rough.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every time my DH and I bicker even the slightest, he resorts to name calling and giving me the middle finger. We will have disagreements about who is dropping the baby at daycare that day, and he’ll end up calling me a psycho and giving me the middle finger.

He is constantly using insults that are specific to women and their mental health: psycho, rage case, hysterical, b*, etc. I have asked him time and time again to stop, especially with the very pointed mental health insults. I struggled with postpartum depression for months after our baby was born, and it is very fresh.

At this point, I’m tired of it. I’m tired of being called psycho for expressing any emotional response. I try my hardest to let his insults roll off my back, but maybe that’s why it keeps happening? Maybe I should show him what psycho looks like instead of just crying at the kitchen sink.

WWYD?

Well, I'd leave because I grew up in a home where no one ever did this. I'm maybe a little hyper sensitive to it, but it might just be the high self esteem of being a girl with a father who treats her mother right for 40+ years. I'm not being braggy, it was eye opening to me in my 20s that this is actually considered fairly normal and acceptable by a LARGE number of people. Its depressing. I had one longer term boyfriend who touched on this but yeah, I wouldn't cry at the kitchen sink. I'd book a hotel within 10 min and disappear. Not with kids but like 200 lbs of dogs and accouterments. Just, packed and gone. No return date.

I will say though that if this is the precursor to domestic violence that may or may not be the way. I knew it was all bluster but dont know your dynamic.

Before someone calls me out on this because I know they will, yes this is a privilege thing. I always made my own good money and that can solve a lot of "cool down" situations though it doesn’t change my opinion that yelling and curing at your supposed beloved is acceptable.

Anonymous wrote:Every time my DH and I bicker even the slightest, he resorts to name calling and giving me the middle finger. We will have disagreements about who is dropping the baby at daycare that day, and he’ll end up calling me a psycho and giving me the middle finger.

He is constantly using insults that are specific to women and their mental health: psycho, rage case, hysterical, b*, etc. I have asked him time and time again to stop, especially with the very pointed mental health insults. I struggled with postpartum depression for months after our baby was born, and it is very fresh.

At this point, I’m tired of it. I’m tired of being called psycho for expressing any emotional response. I try my hardest to let his insults roll off my back, but maybe that’s why it keeps happening? Maybe I should show him what psycho looks like instead of just crying at the kitchen sink.

WWYD?

Well, I'd leave because I grew up in a home where no one ever did this. I'm maybe a little hyper sensitive to it, but it might just be the high self esteem of being a girl with a father who treats her mother right for 40+ years. I'm not being braggy, it was eye opening to me in my 20s that this is actually considered fairly normal and acceptable by a LARGE number of people. Its depressing. I had one longer term boyfriend who touched on this but yeah, I wouldn't cry at the kitchen sink. I'd book a hotel within 10 min and disappear. Not with kids but like 200 lbs of dogs and accouterments. Just, packed and gone. No return date.

I will say though that if this is the precursor to domestic violence that may or may not be the way. I knew it was all bluster but dont know your dynamic.

The women who endure the worst abuse seem to be the most patient and it's not fair. Some women have divorced their husbands for issues far less serious than OP's. Crazy

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The frequency of his comments, the use of gestures and the lack of remorse all suggest this is unfixable and goes way beyond the stress all new parents face.

I would stop talking to him about your feelings, stop debriefing and stop trying to create intimacy. I would insist on a separation and explain that you plan to eventually divorce. Keep it simple: You can say that as a mother you cannot let a growing child witness this or god forbid be subject to it. He will say you’re exaggerating, you’re selfish, kid will never hear, etc. but do not waver or get sucked into an argument.

After a few months you can consider what it would take to rebuild, but I don’t think he loves you or family life enough to put in the work to fix himself. He will always believe he isn’t crossing the line into misogyny or verbal abuse, but he is. And once he is comfortable seeing himself as the victim, financial or romantic betrayal is around the corner.

Say more. What interesting insight! What is it about people who live in victimhood that sets them on a path toward financial and romantic betrayal? I agree with you wholeheartedly. Would just love to know more.

I agree; great insights.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What an a$$. Was he always like this? It seems as though he does not respect you.

OP: I say this to him all the time in quieter moments after a fight. “This stuff really hurts me because it *really* feels like you don’t respect me at all.” And he will just spiral and say that’s such an unfair statement, how I’m always looking at the negative instead of our positive interactions, how *I* am just as bad, etc.

OP, Google “DARVO”. And read “Why Does He Do That?” by Lundy Bancroft. There’s a free PDF online:

https://dn790007.ca.archive.org/0/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf

Anonymous wrote:Every time my DH and I bicker even the slightest, he resorts to name calling and giving me the middle finger. We will have disagreements about who is dropping the baby at daycare that day, and he’ll end up calling me a psycho and giving me the middle finger.

He is constantly using insults that are specific to women and their mental health: psycho, rage case, hysterical, b*, etc. I have asked him time and time again to stop, especially with the very pointed mental health insults. I struggled with postpartum depression for months after our baby was born, and it is very fresh.

At this point, I’m tired of it. I’m tired of being called psycho for expressing any emotional response. I try my hardest to let his insults roll off my back, but maybe that’s why it keeps happening? Maybe I should show him what psycho looks like instead of just crying at the kitchen sink.

WWYD?

Ultimatum. Next time he does it, leave.