I have personally seen this in girls as well as boys. I can't tell if it's just the culture at our elementary school or what, but the kids are super mean to each other (we are leaving after this year, for several reasons, but honestly this aspect of the culture is part of it).

I have seen boys and girls "roast" other kids for offenses like needing after school tutoring, being slower than other kids in gym, not being familiar with some tv show/movie/video game, having parents who aren't as well off. My kids have also told me about teasing that happens because a child expresses any ambition (i.e. making fun of a kid who says they want to be a doctor when they grow up) or for being unfamiliar with terms related to drugs or sex (yes, I know, again -- we are leaving).

Some of the kids also attempt to roast adults.

It seems to start around 2nd grade at the school (our oldest is in 2nd) though I saw some of it in 1st. However, in 1st, teachers would say something about it and at least some of the other parents would also speak up. Now no one seems to care. Some adults seem to think it's a positive thing, a way for kids to show confidence and be "resilient."

I'm totally baffled. At first I was shocked but now I'm just confused. Why would you raise kids like this? Separately, teachers and some parents complain about "behavioral issues" at school, by which they mean kids who push or shove or make scenes in class. To me it's all obviously connected. These kids are not being taught to be respectful of other people, or that their actions can negatively effect others and they have a responsibility to work on themselves and be better.

Friends roast.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DH1PTfGRw_5/

Kids haven’t learned to do it well.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fvol_PhlegU&pp=0gcJCdgAo7VqN5tD

Teach them to do it well, to recognize when and how to roast. They will make mistakes as kids but if they learn to master roasting, they will have great friends as adults.

As for what society teaches girls, good luck having a conversation with society and that leading to a changed message for your daughter. I would teach my daughter to do what’s best for her, because it’s best for her.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a parent of a 4th grade DD who had been warned about how difficult tween and teen girls were and how mean they are to each other. I was always told that boys were straightforward and easy.

It’s been shocking to see girls rally together and be supportive and kind, and to see the cruel, aggressive and constant work boys exert to establish and maintain a pecking order and their place in it. (I just wrote basically the same thing on the special needs thread and it isn’t worth rephrasing) Girl moms talked for years about relational aggression, but now I think it’s who who are really pushing the boundaries of what that can look like.

We have multiple boys at our school leaving because they’ve basically been driven out by this alpha boy nonsense.

I agree and have seen this too. I have 2 girls and my anecdotal observation is that parents seem very quick to discipline their girls vs boys. I don’t get it. Girls (not all but most in my observation) are quick to be kept in check but parents give boys so much leeway for things like screaming, inappropriate or mean language, being physically rough etc. It’s so dispiriting. There seems to be so much coddling of boys vs trying to make girls tough enough to handle those boys.

Look, some of this is just parents picking their battles. I have two boys. One is naturally more compliant, and the other a bit crazy. Some people might observe me and say that I am more likely to check my compliant boy but that is only because he is already mostly in check and it takes no effort to check him on the rare occasion that he steps out of line and then he immediately corrects himself. The other boy, I really have to pick my battles. I don't have the energy to corect everything he does. So my expectations are not the same for both kids. Since most girls are more compliant than the typical boy, I can see why you would think girl parents correct more, but that is because it is easy to do so.

I don't see the boys will be boys mentality to be not caring about what boys do and allowing whatever behavior. It is more about recognizing that boys will act differently than girls and to shape them with that in mind.

This may be true, but I think we should think about the message this sends to girls and boys. Girls are expected to be perfect and any minor deviations are corrected. Boys have lots of leeway and only checked in when absolutely necessary. Girls and boys see this and it shapes their expectations about behavior for boys and girls.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a parent of a 4th grade DD who had been warned about how difficult tween and teen girls were and how mean they are to each other. I was always told that boys were straightforward and easy.

It’s been shocking to see girls rally together and be supportive and kind, and to see the cruel, aggressive and constant work boys exert to establish and maintain a pecking order and their place in it. (I just wrote basically the same thing on the special needs thread and it isn’t worth rephrasing) Girl moms talked for years about relational aggression, but now I think it’s who who are really pushing the boundaries of what that can look like.

We have multiple boys at our school leaving because they’ve basically been driven out by this alpha boy nonsense.

I agree and have seen this too. I have 2 girls and my anecdotal observation is that parents seem very quick to discipline their girls vs boys. I don’t get it. Girls (not all but most in my observation) are quick to be kept in check but parents give boys so much leeway for things like screaming, inappropriate or mean language, being physically rough etc. It’s so dispiriting. There seems to be so much coddling of boys vs trying to make girls tough enough to handle those boys.

Look, some of this is just parents picking their battles. I have two boys. One is naturally more compliant, and the other a bit crazy. Some people might observe me and say that I am more likely to check my compliant boy but that is only because he is already mostly in check and it takes no effort to check him on the rare occasion that he steps out of line and then he immediately corrects himself. The other boy, I really have to pick my battles. I don't have the energy to corect everything he does. So my expectations are not the same for both kids. Since most girls are more compliant than the typical boy, I can see why you would think girl parents correct more, but that is because it is easy to do so.

I don't see the boys will be boys mentality to be not caring about what boys do and allowing whatever behavior. It is more about recognizing that boys will act differently than girls and to shape them with that in mind.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Boys bond this way.

But that is exactly the point, the AREN”T bonding. They are establishing a hierarchy and pecking order that relies on “strong man/red pill” principles. It is more like trauma bonding than a healthy relationship:

Trauma bonding in friendships is a psychological phenomenon that develops when a strong emotional connection is formed between individuals, one of whom is consistently subjecting the other to negative or abusive treatment interspersed with periods of positive reinforcement

It is toxic.

So is your face

And so my point is made!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Boys bond this way.

You are part of the problem. Please don't reproduce anymore.

+1 I don't get how these parents don't realize that it isn't the kids and it isn't inevitable. It's how they are being raised by the parents and the community. It truly doesn't have to be this way, and there are enough examples, even on this thread, of parents saying it isn't that way everywhere to prove it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Boys bond this way.

Yes and no. I have two boys. Both athletes and good students.

Boys are competitive. They are hard wired for it. But I think parenting and good communities keep them in their lanes. If there are failures, it's usually because the parents suck or there's a bad peer group of poorly parented students.

I came up in the 80s and 90s. We were way worse then this generation of kids. They all seem really nice these days.

Not all boys are "competitive" or hard wired for it. Many are naturally empathetic, team builders, and collaborators. They become good engineers, creators, problem solvers. project managers, and leaders.

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, I have four boys and yes, there is something that kind of breaks in them during middle school and remains broken during high school. They sort of seal up emotionally because it's just.not.acceptable. to feel things. It's strange and weird and basically the one thing that sort of opened them up weirdly was dating girls and even then it is sort of screwed up that they rely on them for this solely. Their friends aren't safe spaces.

That is sad and has not been the case for my, now adult, boys.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Boys bond this way.

But that is exactly the point, the AREN”T bonding. They are establishing a hierarchy and pecking order that relies on “strong man/red pill” principles. It is more like trauma bonding than a healthy relationship:

Trauma bonding in friendships is a psychological phenomenon that develops when a strong emotional connection is formed between individuals, one of whom is consistently subjecting the other to negative or abusive treatment interspersed with periods of positive reinforcement

It is toxic.

So is your face

Baseball or lacrosse?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Boys bond this way.

But that is exactly the point, the AREN”T bonding. They are establishing a hierarchy and pecking order that relies on “strong man/red pill” principles. It is more like trauma bonding than a healthy relationship:

Trauma bonding in friendships is a psychological phenomenon that develops when a strong emotional connection is formed between individuals, one of whom is consistently subjecting the other to negative or abusive treatment interspersed with periods of positive reinforcement

It is toxic.

So is your face

It was always been that way but it’s worse now than ever because of the toxic youth sports culture. The grown-ups are focused so much on the money. They don’t bother to promote sportsmanship; they just want to win. And the kids are encouraged to feel they are just super special because they play a sport. This applies to girls and boys sports.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven't found this at all with either my 9 year-old boy or my 11 year-old boy. Their friend groups are really lovely boys and lovely families. Both play sports but neither has an identity formed solely around sports, so maybe that is why. Is it all boys or just a toxic environment around certain sports or activities that you are noticing? I wouldn't paint with too broad a brush.

At our school, it happens separate from sports but is worse among the “baseball boys”. But I’ve heard from friends at other schools that it’s other sports, so I think the particular sport is irrelevant.

That’s interesting. I’m not in the DMV, and at my son’s private the “baseball boys” are also the worst. It’s really bad. Found out the other day that the baseball 4th grade boys are calling teachers f-ing w re’s the other day.

Anonymous wrote:Because boys WILL be boys. And girls WILL be girls. The meme gets it right.
Two boys talking:
Boy 1: "Fake insult"
Boy 2: "Fake insult"

Two girls talking:
Girl 1: "Fake compliment"
Girl 2: "Fake compliment"

I'll hang with the boys any day.

This.

Is why I prefer male friends over other women.
Women are catty and downright evil much more than men are.
Men are more blunt and straightforward, at least the masculine manly types usually are moreso.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a parent of a 4th grade DD who had been warned about how difficult tween and teen girls were and how mean they are to each other. I was always told that boys were straightforward and easy.

It’s been shocking to see girls rally together and be supportive and kind, and to see the cruel, aggressive and constant work boys exert to establish and maintain a pecking order and their place in it. (I just wrote basically the same thing on the special needs thread and it isn’t worth rephrasing) Girl moms talked for years about relational aggression, but now I think it’s who who are really pushing the boundaries of what that can look like.

We have multiple boys at our school leaving because they’ve basically been driven out by this alpha boy nonsense.

I agree and have seen this too. I have 2 girls and my anecdotal observation is that parents seem very quick to discipline their girls vs boys. I don’t get it. Girls (not all but most in my observation) are quick to be kept in check but parents give boys so much leeway for things like screaming, inappropriate or mean language, being physically rough etc. It’s so dispiriting. There seems to be so much coddling of boys vs trying to make girls tough enough to handle those boys.

Yes! Rather than attempt to discipline boys for bad behavior, my DD and her friends were told by the counselors and the assistant principal that they needed to find a way to manage their reactions because that’s just how the boys were going to be.

To the teachers’ credit, they were appalled. But also stuck.

As a 3 girl my mom my next calls would be to the executive principal, the assistant superintendent's office, and the superintendent's office.

The principal's hands might be tied or whatever, but on no account would they be allowed to make my girls think they were the problem.

--3 girl mom

This is interesting to me, you didn’t even call/email the counselor or principal and have a meeting with them? You immediately escalated?

Anonymous wrote:Boys bond this way.

But that is exactly the point, the AREN”T bonding. They are establishing a hierarchy and pecking order that relies on “strong man/red pill” principles. It is more like trauma bonding than a healthy relationship:

Trauma bonding in friendships is a psychological phenomenon that develops when a strong emotional connection is formed between individuals, one of whom is consistently subjecting the other to negative or abusive treatment interspersed with periods of positive reinforcement

It is toxic.