^ understanding

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why or why not? Anyone with any direct experience?

This is a repost from the political board. I should have posted in here initially.

My dc is American but is half Asian (looks more Asian than white if that makes a difference) speaks some mandarin and his university has several programs in China, including at a top school in Shanghai that dc is very interested in attending. But not sure it’s safe. Taiwan might be a better option but he’s not as interested in the partner program there. Dc is not into politics, and has never voted although he did register Dem last year.

I was interested to see the Canadian travel advisory for the US. Made the US sound terribly unsafe!

https://travel.gc.ca/destinations/united-states

I live in Hong Kong.

I will keep this brief and somewhat circumspect for obvious reasons.

This is no longer the Hong Kong so many Americans remember. Ask anyone you talk to when they last lived here.

Also travelling to Hong Kong to study Mandarin would be like travelling to Italy to learn French. Hong Kongers speak Cantonese and use traditional characters, not simplified.

One final note, there are far far fewer Americans studying in the mainland now.

“ These days[April 2024], only about 700 American students are studying at Chinese universities, down from a peak of close to 25,000 a decade ago, while there are nearly 300,000 Chinese students at U.S. schools.”

https://apnews.com/article/china-american-students-universities-f5f6e53cd5d3bc686590f2f961165281

Are you PenguinSix or something like that? I remember a DCUM poster who was an expat in HK posting years ago. (Not that I think there's only one American in HK, but DCUM is a bit esoteric for someone living there)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I lived in Shanghai for a few years, am Asian, speak some Mandarin. It is a fantastic city and very safe crime-wise. However the country can change rules very suddenly and implement instantly. I don't think right now is a good time to go. I certainly wouldn't send a child who wasn't an absolute rule follower/drugs/drinking. Speaking the language is mostly helpful but it also opens questions like do you have Chinese ancestry and if so why do you live in America. Many remaining expats have the funds and connections to leave the country quickly if something goes south (to Taiwan or somewhere close).

Op. This is good perspective, thank you. His school is running these partner programs. Do you think that would add a layer of protection? He’s a rule follower and careful and not interested in politics but still he’s a 19 yo, will be 20 if he goes. Taiwan seems safer but the programs there aren’t as compelling. He does have some remote Chinese ancestry, but his name is not Chinese. He has his heart set on Shanghai but aside from the school program, we only have one friend contact there who is Taiwanese

If he's going with a partner program, yes I think that's a much better situation (versus attending classes at even the top Chinese schools without any US contact). I knew some professors at NYU-Shanghai and they had advance notice if they needed to leave. Shanghai is a much larger, cosmopolitan city than Taipei. The cities are only an hour apart by plane.

Thank you. That’s my understatement as well.

Anonymous wrote:Also looking for advice...have a daughter who is double major International affairs and Mandarin...non-Asian, white. Wants to study abroad in China next year. Wife and I hesitant about the prospect.

She's wanting to go for the cultural experience and language immersion. She's studied the culture for years and wants to live it for a semester. I get it.

But question is, for language advancement, could she benefit in a similar way with a summer language immersion here? Middlebury and Indiana U each have notable programs. Or is actually being abroad heads and shoulders better for the amount of learning to be had?

Op here. Those US programs would be fine but I don’t think nearly as beneficial as going to Asia. So yes, I’d say send her. My dc backtracked a lot when he was simply just studying Chinese with other native English speakers.

But as others have suggested, Taipei and Singapore could be good options. What type of mandarin is she learning? My dc learned Taiwanese Mandarin/traditional first (well after a few informal years when he was young in a Chinese speaking environment) and the switch to simplified wasn’t as hard as I’d think it would be in the other direction.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For Asia, Japan, Korea, or Singapore.

You do realize they don’t speak Mandarin there, right?

DP, and I live in Singapore. Mandarin is WIDELY spoken here: it's the second language, after English. I'm American and don't speak Mandarin, but I hear it every day. Outside, shopping, at hawker centers, overhearing my Singaporean colleagues chatting in Mandarin amongst themselves: everywhere. Even "Singlish", a common local vernacular, is English modeled on Mandarin sentence structures, with Mandarin words woven in.

If OP's child wanted to speak Mandarin in Singapore, he could easily do it every day with people who are native speakers, on all levels of society.

Oh, and the majority of Singaporeans do NOT sound like the characters on Crazy Rich Asians. I think that was source of your misunderstanding, PP. Crazy Rich Asians...is not real.

I was just going to suggest Singapore.

If you go to HK or Shanghai the government will install spyware on your electronics. I guess you just continue to use them while in China, but then you will need to throw them out when you leave. Probably better to buy some new stuff when you arrive so it doesn't have any of your personal stuff on it.

Op here. Unfortunately dc isn’t particularly interested in the partner program available through his university in Singapore, but I’ll keep that in mind. He’s not going to Asia specifically for language instruction but certainly it would be ideal if he had chances to use the years of Mandarin under his belt.

Yes, we know about the monitoring issue and dc wouldn’t post or say anything controversial. FWIW the US does its share of monitoring too and it’s fairly easy for them to justify access to your private conversations through big tech. But you make a good point, we’d probably get him new devices to use only while he’s there.

Also looking for advice...have a daughter who is double major International affairs and Mandarin...non-Asian, white. Wants to study abroad in China next year. Wife and I hesitant about the prospect.

She's wanting to go for the cultural experience and language immersion. She's studied the culture for years and wants to live it for a semester. I get it.

But question is, for language advancement, could she benefit in a similar way with a summer language immersion here? Middlebury and Indiana U each have notable programs. Or is actually being abroad heads and shoulders better for the amount of learning to be had?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I lived in Shanghai for a few years, am Asian, speak some Mandarin. It is a fantastic city and very safe crime-wise. However the country can change rules very suddenly and implement instantly. I don't think right now is a good time to go. I certainly wouldn't send a child who wasn't an absolute rule follower/drugs/drinking. Speaking the language is mostly helpful but it also opens questions like do you have Chinese ancestry and if so why do you live in America. Many remaining expats have the funds and connections to leave the country quickly if something goes south (to Taiwan or somewhere close).

Op. This is good perspective, thank you. His school is running these partner programs. Do you think that would add a layer of protection? He’s a rule follower and careful and not interested in politics but still he’s a 19 yo, will be 20 if he goes. Taiwan seems safer but the programs there aren’t as compelling. He does have some remote Chinese ancestry, but his name is not Chinese. He has his heart set on Shanghai but aside from the school program, we only have one friend contact there who is Taiwanese

If he's going with a partner program, yes I think that's a much better situation (versus attending classes at even the top Chinese schools without any US contact). I knew some professors at NYU-Shanghai and they had advance notice if they needed to leave. Shanghai is a much larger, cosmopolitan city than Taipei. The cities are only an hour apart by plane.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Probably not.

What about Singapore? We're living there now for work, and while English is the official language, Mandarin is widely spoke as well, and Chinese culture and traditions are a part of the thread of life here. And I think it would be a low-risk, safe experience, compared to the uncertainty of relations with China and conditions for expats there right now.

I totally agree with you but he’s not particularly interested in Singapore. Says the partner program there isn’t as appealing and also I think he just thinks of Singapore as ‘boring’. He’s looking at it from a 19 year old perspective unfortunately.

How do you like living there?

I love it. I also think I would have loved to have spent time here as a university student. There are so many things to do for university kids in the city.

Singapore is a clean, safe, modern place to live, but it definitely has its own flavor. Singapore is quite multicultural as well: this isn't something most people think about when they imagine it, I think.

I also love how it is so easy to just zip off for a three-day weekend mini break in places like Japan, Australia, South Korea, etc, and you can drive across the causeway into Malaysia for shopping, exploring somewhere different but close, etc.

Maybe you could bring your child here to visit for a few days, to see if he changes his mind? I would be happy for my child to be in Singapore alone for university without us, and let him fly to China for a break or two when he has a school holiday, but would much prefer knowing he was safe here. Again, he can absolutely use his Mandarin here every day, wherever he goes, if that is his focus. But Singapore is also clean and safe, with drinkable water and a transparent, organized legal system.

We know a lot of expats who were previously posted in China, and the unanimous consensus among them is that China was a great place for expats a few years go, prior to Covid, but things have changed a lot and continue to move in a direction they don't like. I would not want my child to live in China without us (or even with us) any time in the near future.

Your DC will be fine going to Shanghai. It’ll be a great experience with incredible food and lots of interesting cultural experiences. If he’s not half Chinese and looks partially Asian, I wouldn’t worry about it at all. He’ll probably get lots of attention but not in a negative way.

I grew up in the US but recently went back for a visit and was astonished at how safe I felt in China compared to the US.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For Asia, Japan, Korea, or Singapore.

You do realize they don’t speak Mandarin there, right?

DP, and I live in Singapore. Mandarin is WIDELY spoken here: it's the second language, after English. I'm American and don't speak Mandarin, but I hear it every day. Outside, shopping, at hawker centers, overhearing my Singaporean colleagues chatting in Mandarin amongst themselves: everywhere. Even "Singlish", a common local vernacular, is English modeled on Mandarin sentence structures, with Mandarin words woven in.

If OP's child wanted to speak Mandarin in Singapore, he could easily do it every day with people who are native speakers, on all levels of society.

Oh, and the majority of Singaporeans do NOT sound like the characters on Crazy Rich Asians. I think that was source of your misunderstanding, PP. Crazy Rich Asians...is not real.

I was just going to suggest Singapore.

If you go to HK or Shanghai the government will install spyware on your electronics. I guess you just continue to use them while in China, but then you will need to throw them out when you leave. Probably better to buy some new stuff when you arrive so it doesn't have any of your personal stuff on it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For Asia, Japan, Korea, or Singapore.

You do realize they don’t speak Mandarin there, right?

DP, and I live in Singapore. Mandarin is WIDELY spoken here: it's the second language, after English. I'm American and don't speak Mandarin, but I hear it every day. Outside, shopping, at hawker centers, overhearing my Singaporean colleagues chatting in Mandarin amongst themselves: everywhere. Even "Singlish", a common local vernacular, is English modeled on Mandarin sentence structures, with Mandarin words woven in.

If OP's child wanted to speak Mandarin in Singapore, he could easily do it every day with people who are native speakers, on all levels of society.

Oh, and the majority of Singaporeans do NOT sound like the characters on Crazy Rich Asians. I think that was source of your misunderstanding, PP. Crazy Rich Asians...is not real.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Canadian Travel Advisory for Canadians entering the USA is thorough & well done. Excellent advice with good resource information.

Whether or not I would let a college student study abroad in Shanghai or Hong Kong next year would depend upon the then current political climate and would also depend upon the school and housing involved.

Yes, it is. It does make the US sound like a bit of a hell hole though, doesn’t it?

No, not to me. Everything sounds reasonable. Important to understand that pot is illegal under federal law in the US. Nothing in the travel advisory would deter me from traveling from Canada to the US if I were a citizen of Canada.

Advice would have been no different if Biden was president.

We have people who pick pocket in the US. Homes get broken into sometimes. Don’t hike alone. Get travel insurance.


Nothing earth shattering.

Did you actually read it?

Mass shootings
Many citizens have guns
Petty crime
Home break ins
Violent crime
Gang activity
Terrorism!

Plus drug overdoses and homeless

If I didn’t know the US, I wouldn’t want to visit!!

Not minimizing what Canada wrote. Point was it is not earth shattering news what they wrote - it has been a problem under both Democratic & Republican rule.

Oh I see. It was just interesting to see what a hell hole it sounded like

Anonymous wrote:Another American in HK (lived in Asia for decades).

- I would recommend your undergrad, provided they exercise good judgement generally (not impulsive) study in Shanghai;
- I would expect some friction at immigration (common for Americans these days given geopolitical, but nothing too crazy more like 10 minutes of questions);
- There are only couple of hundred USA students in China now (this is very sad and bad for the for future relations);
- China & USA have to find a way to coexist;
- This experience will be a valuable life experience & will differentiate;
- The risks: some kind of legal limbo if your kid is posting things political or commits a crime; some kind of encampment if there is WW3 (I view these as very low probability).

Shanghai is an amazing city (Beijing & Taipei also great options for language & Taipei would entail less 'friction').

I also share the sentiments about USA. My half-Asian is a freshman in a USA uni right now and has had one friend deported (not for political reasons) with little due process & his school had an active shooter lockdown (hoax). Off campus he has witnessed serious crime. Shanghai would be much safer day to day on the street & even politically it seems at the moment (don't hear of any foreign students getting deported from China, we hear about it & have first had knowledge of it in USA).

Op here. This is useful, thank you. Dc is not interested in politics so he wouldn’t be posting but he also knows he needs to even watch what he texts, follows online etc. He also knows no drugs (even before he arrives), careful with drinking etc. He’s adventurous in terms of wanting to experience other cultures, but he’s also a rule follower.

Taipei would be great if his focus was just language acquisition (he studied Taiwanese mandarin/learned how to write traditional for years) but unfortunately he’s also specific program focused and Shanghai is his top choice

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Canadian Travel Advisory for Canadians entering the USA is thorough & well done. Excellent advice with good resource information.

Whether or not I would let a college student study abroad in Shanghai or Hong Kong next year would depend upon the then current political climate and would also depend upon the school and housing involved.

Yes, it is. It does make the US sound like a bit of a hell hole though, doesn’t it?

No, not to me. Everything sounds reasonable. Important to understand that pot is illegal under federal law in the US. Nothing in the travel advisory would deter me from traveling from Canada to the US if I were a citizen of Canada.

Advice would have been no different if Biden was president.

We have people who pick pocket in the US. Homes get broken into sometimes. Don’t hike alone. Get travel insurance.


Nothing earth shattering.

Did you actually read it?

Mass shootings
Many citizens have guns
Petty crime
Home break ins
Violent crime
Gang activity
Terrorism!

Plus drug overdoses and homeless

If I didn’t know the US, I wouldn’t want to visit!!

Not minimizing what Canada wrote. Point was it is not earth shattering news what they wrote - it has been a problem under both Democratic & Republican rule.