Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my sophomore year, I withdrew from orgo 2 weeks in and made arrangements to take it at summer school. I couldn’t manage the bandwidth it took to think through the reactions plus 4 other courses. Once I was in the summer class and thinking about nothing but orgo (and my mindless 2nd shift job), it finally made sense and came together.

Finding a summer orgo class that you can transfer may be the answer. I was not pre-med but my class was 98% pre-meds who knew the secret.

Another option, is to find a OC class at a community college that the university will accept. My brother did that years ago and it was the only way he would have made it through pharmacy school.
I have a PhD in Chem and hated Organic.

I’m the PP you’re replying to and I was at an Ivy. We were allowed to transfer in 2 outside classes so I went home to a local small, private university with a strong nursing program to take orgo. I chose it based on affordable cost and reputation of the course and professor. Kids from my HS passed down the info about the class.

Start asking around- kids who are seniors in college or in med school who went to your kid’s high school will have local recommendations.

Even if your college accepts the transfer, how do you know the medical school you apply to will view it as the same rigor?

Orgo is the same rigor whenever you go. This isn’t high school honors history vs. regular history. Score well on your MCATs, get a great GPA and get As in all your pre-reqs and no one will question rigor.

Now if you had a lot of Cs in pre-reqs at your Ivy and an A in a pre-req at a non-Ivy, then yeah, it would raise red flags

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do they need to weed out pre-med? We need more doctors!

We don’t need doctors who don’t understand organic chemistry, though.

True, but I think the vast majority of doctors could get by with a significantly more basic knowledge of organic chem. It’s really mostly about demonstrating you have sufficient iq and grit to do okay in the class, rather than that most physicians have to rely on in depth recall of the content. Obviously, for some specialties they actually do need to know (meaning actually remember) a great deal more.

Anonymous wrote:Why do they need to weed out pre-med? We need more doctors!

We don’t need doctors who don’t understand organic chemistry, though.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is abt my niece who I know well. She is having a terrible time with organic chemistry.

She is a genuinely smart girl and a good test taker generally doing well at a top 50 school in her intro stem classes but this class seems like it’s going to break her-she will be extremely lucky to get a C.

My question is-what’s going on/how common is this? If this happened to your adult kid what did they do?

For context-this really is my niece. (My own college kid is an English major and would def bomb this class. )

also, I actually took two semesters of orgo in college myself and I remember it as quite hard but not impossible for me, a not highly diligent student. Thats actually partly why I’m asking-I know this kid and remember the class I took and it doesn’t make sense to me!

These days getting a C or worse in OChem makes it unlikely they will get into an MD program in the USA.

Does any one know what is the gpa cutoff for med school acceptance at Cornell? They have grade inflation and wed out a lot of premed students.

Anonymous wrote:A trend now is to take OChem in the summer at a community college and then repeat it at your 4-year. You aren't using the CC class for credit, but to prepare you to get a good grade in the one that matters.

This seems like a better plan! And seems like a useful tactic everywhere these days: don't skip ahead , rather repeat a class for the A.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my sophomore year, I withdrew from orgo 2 weeks in and made arrangements to take it at summer school. I couldn’t manage the bandwidth it took to think through the reactions plus 4 other courses. Once I was in the summer class and thinking about nothing but orgo (and my mindless 2nd shift job), it finally made sense and came together.

Finding a summer orgo class that you can transfer may be the answer. I was not pre-med but my class was 98% pre-meds who knew the secret.

Another option, is to find a OC class at a community college that the university will accept. My brother did that years ago and it was the only way he would have made it through pharmacy school.
I have a PhD in Chem and hated Organic.

I’m the PP you’re replying to and I was at an Ivy. We were allowed to transfer in 2 outside classes so I went home to a local small, private university with a strong nursing program to take orgo. I chose it based on affordable cost and reputation of the course and professor. Kids from my HS passed down the info about the class.

Start asking around- kids who are seniors in college or in med school who went to your kid’s high school will have local recommendations.

Even if your college accepts the transfer, how do you know the medical school you apply to will view it as the same rigor?

NP: there is a comprehensive- annually updated - doc that lists every med school and their requirements: courses required, online classes accepted for which subjects, community colleges accepted for each class, etc.

A trend now is to take OChem in the summer at a community college and then repeat it at your 4-year. You aren't using the CC class for credit, but to prepare you to get a good grade in the one that matters.

Anonymous wrote:This is abt my niece who I know well. She is having a terrible time with organic chemistry.

She is a genuinely smart girl and a good test taker generally doing well at a top 50 school in her intro stem classes but this class seems like it’s going to break her-she will be extremely lucky to get a C.

My question is-what’s going on/how common is this? If this happened to your adult kid what did they do?

For context-this really is my niece. (My own college kid is an English major and would def bomb this class. )

also, I actually took two semesters of orgo in college myself and I remember it as quite hard but not impossible for me, a not highly diligent student. Thats actually partly why I’m asking-I know this kid and remember the class I took and it doesn’t make sense to me!

These days getting a C or worse in OChem makes it unlikely they will get into an MD program in the USA, unless they do a lot better the second semester and have close to all A range in the other stem classes. Occasional C's used to be fine because C's were common even in top schools: many of my MD friends had a C or two, usually Ochem or physics, hence a 3.2-3.3 overall; average GPA to get into med school was 3.5 yet the national acceptance rates were the same 40% they are today.
This is not the case the past 8 yrs or more: C's are rare and Stem GPA of under 3.4 will knock you out of contention from a T50. The only students who can get into med school in the US with under 3.4 without an unusual background are from med-school feeders where a 3.4 typically correlates to a 513 on the MCAT, and they usually get in with a gap year/postbacc/masters. A 3.8 is around average at these schools and correlates to a 518, they easily get in to med schools. I have experience inside med admissions. Grade inflation is much more extensive than parents of premeds realize.
At colleges where C's are still given readily in in specific courses like Ochem, the majority of the class are able to get B or above and even the ones who manage B+/A- (top third) in Ochem from these schools still typically struggle to get above a 507 MCAT, the bare minimum needed to be in contention for MD. Most of these schools that give plenty of C's in Ochem have significant inflation(B+ avg) in other stem classes that are more rote memorization than process/application at these schools: Ochem remains the only "weedout" and is intentionally so.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my sophomore year, I withdrew from orgo 2 weeks in and made arrangements to take it at summer school. I couldn’t manage the bandwidth it took to think through the reactions plus 4 other courses. Once I was in the summer class and thinking about nothing but orgo (and my mindless 2nd shift job), it finally made sense and came together.

Finding a summer orgo class that you can transfer may be the answer. I was not pre-med but my class was 98% pre-meds who knew the secret.

Another option, is to find a OC class at a community college that the university will accept. My brother did that years ago and it was the only way he would have made it through pharmacy school.
I have a PhD in Chem and hated Organic.

I’m the PP you’re replying to and I was at an Ivy. We were allowed to transfer in 2 outside classes so I went home to a local small, private university with a strong nursing program to take orgo. I chose it based on affordable cost and reputation of the course and professor. Kids from my HS passed down the info about the class.

Start asking around- kids who are seniors in college or in med school who went to your kid’s high school will have local recommendations.

Even if your college accepts the transfer, how do you know the medical school you apply to will view it as the same rigor?

+1 this is totally fine if you're aiming for any med school, as opposed to a top med school and a competitive residency match.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my sophomore year, I withdrew from orgo 2 weeks in and made arrangements to take it at summer school. I couldn’t manage the bandwidth it took to think through the reactions plus 4 other courses. Once I was in the summer class and thinking about nothing but orgo (and my mindless 2nd shift job), it finally made sense and came together.

Finding a summer orgo class that you can transfer may be the answer. I was not pre-med but my class was 98% pre-meds who knew the secret.

Another option, is to find a OC class at a community college that the university will accept. My brother did that years ago and it was the only way he would have made it through pharmacy school.
I have a PhD in Chem and hated Organic.

I’m the PP you’re replying to and I was at an Ivy. We were allowed to transfer in 2 outside classes so I went home to a local small, private university with a strong nursing program to take orgo. I chose it based on affordable cost and reputation of the course and professor. Kids from my HS passed down the info about the class.

Start asking around- kids who are seniors in college or in med school who went to your kid’s high school will have local recommendations.

Even if your college accepts the transfer, how do you know the medical school you apply to will view it as the same rigor?

Correct. Med schools are on to this now: it is not a good plan at all, and top undergrad schools do not accept transfer premd reqs anymore, unless it is deemed a "peer" school. Schools that do accept it strongly discourage the practice for premeds. Instead what is reasonable and not much of a flag is to take Ochem in the summer at the same undergrad, allowing one to focus on the course without 3-4 other classes. Ivies encourage this for students who start off poorly: withdraw and re-try in summer

Anonymous wrote:I was a ChemE and my experience was that ChemEs did better in Chem than the pure science majors. OChem is all about the process - how to get to an end molecule and so you have to understand what would happen if you add certain reagents. It’s a thinking man’s chemistry.

Also chiral centers and enantiomers requires good special awareness. You can’t just memorize them.

DD is chemE at a top private and on average she and chemE friends did better on Ochem tests than the premeds, despite having more classes per semester, though plenty of premeds are in the A range. Their school, ivy, has typical grade inflation du jour such that C's are reserved for the very bottom of the class, average on all tests will be curved to a B/B+. Completely different than her premed friend at a large public around T50 wherein 40% get C/D grades

My daughter thought it was easier than one of the gen chem classes. It is a ton a memory. There is no winging it or substitute for hours of studying.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my sophomore year, I withdrew from orgo 2 weeks in and made arrangements to take it at summer school. I couldn’t manage the bandwidth it took to think through the reactions plus 4 other courses. Once I was in the summer class and thinking about nothing but orgo (and my mindless 2nd shift job), it finally made sense and came together.

Finding a summer orgo class that you can transfer may be the answer. I was not pre-med but my class was 98% pre-meds who knew the secret.

Another option, is to find a OC class at a community college that the university will accept. My brother did that years ago and it was the only way he would have made it through pharmacy school.
I have a PhD in Chem and hated Organic.

I’m the PP you’re replying to and I was at an Ivy. We were allowed to transfer in 2 outside classes so I went home to a local small, private university with a strong nursing program to take orgo. I chose it based on affordable cost and reputation of the course and professor. Kids from my HS passed down the info about the class.

Start asking around- kids who are seniors in college or in med school who went to your kid’s high school will have local recommendations.

Even if your college accepts the transfer, how do you know the medical school you apply to will view it as the same rigor?

My son is a vet, and I remember that organic chemistry was something he and his roommate told me was a "weed out" for vet/med school.

He did well in organic chemistry, but he worked HARD. I do remember him spending Christmas break and spring break studying for this class. I think this class was a wakeup call for a lot of smart kids who were used to coasting for As, especially in math/science.

I went to Cal and took organic chemistry with Peter Schultz. I fell in love with it to the point of thinking for a while that I was going to drop medicine and pursue a PhD in chemistry. Pete’s brilliance as a teacher (for me) was constantly connecting the dots between what we learning at the moment and bioorganic applications. I still remember a lecture from 35 years ago where he showed that washing vegetables to remove putative pesticides didn’t make sense given the logP of the targets. Kills me that kids don’t enjoy this subject, it’s truly awesome and made studying pharmacology in medical school tremendously more interesting and efficient.