If he kills someone you will be held culpable, Op. I would highly suggest messaging Jeff to remove this thread, clear your browser history, and file for divorce. You have posted a lot of rather personal information.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I am so sorry. I have a similar situation except no kids.

Why do I stay? I do love him. I am scared of being alone. He can be wonderful when not drunk. He is a high earner and I do not earn anywhere close. I would need a very reduced lifestyle.

He has so many addicts in his family, it doesn't end well. His family is in denial and of no help whatsoever.

Unfortunately only you know the answer to that question. With kids, it is more complicated. Make sure you are getting support from Al Anon and your loved ones.

I might hit my breaking point, but I haven't yet. At times I feel close to it.

Hugs.

Sorry but this is pathetic.

There are financial reasons for women staying with their spouses as usually most women end up worse financially after divorce. That is awful for you to judge this person.

What happens if he starts drinking with the other parents (hey normal, right) and driving the kids back from sports events.
What happens if he drinks at work events and people start wondering?
What happens if they put him on an EAP?
What work does he do, please not a doctor or lawyer?
What happens if he stops earning big money?
What happens if he "is not drunk" but has an accident and his blood level is iver the limit?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, I am the physician who posted the long post.

I didn't say a choice wasn't involved and I explicitly said consequences are a reality, including dying, losing loved ones who refuse to watch you devolve, etc. I also said, OP can't control what he does.

What I did try to do is explain why his behavior which seems rational is utterly delusional. And to offer information that can be helpful because as a family member, it's hard to see what you can do in this situation.

I also think a good view of this is someone who refuses medical treatment for something that can be treated. If that is the case, what would you do? How would you cope? How would you manage? But again, that is such a personal journey and therapy and Al-Anon can be incredibly helpful.

But I feel terrible for you, PP. But I also feel awful for your ex because it is a shame to see a life go. But again, we don't control the consequences. We just have to move accordingly.

Op here, thank you so much for your time writing the long reply. How can I make him realize he has a treatable disease? He doesn't think he has any problem because he does well at work, spends quality time with kids, volunteer a lot on kids sports, does fair share of household work, etc. I can see his point of view, I even doubt myself "am I the problem?", "am I wrong? maybe he is not actually alcoholic?", I have those doubts all the time. This society normalizes drinking. Parents at my kids sports team all drink way too much way too inappropriately (drinking at the games even it's in the morning?!). My husband thinks he "isn't so bad" compared to others, and if those others are all married and live happily, why do I constantly "picking on him".

However, my husband does think his father is an alcoholic, even though his father was high-functioning too for a long time. He thinks his father is wrong for being like that. But he is doing exactly what his father did.

Not the quoted PP, but hugs OP. The bolded, where you start to doubt yourself, is why living with an alcoholic is so like living with someone with a personality disorder. It's a part of why Al-Anon calls alcoholism "the family disease." Being able to be around others who have been through this will be so good for you.

You aren't the insane one. He is. This is the clinical definition of alcohol use disorder: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/alcohol-use-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20369243

Based on what you've written, I've bolded the criteria he meets:

Being unable to limit the amount of alcohol you drink
Wanting to cut down on how much you drink or making unsuccessful attempts to do so
Spending a lot of time drinking, getting alcohol or recovering from alcohol use
Feeling a strong craving or urge to drink alcohol
Failing to fulfill major obligations at work, school or home due to repeated alcohol use
Continuing to drink alcohol even though you know it's causing physical, social, work or relationship problems (even just the relationship problem with you COUNTS, you matter OP!)
Giving up or reducing social and work activities and hobbies to use alcohol
Using alcohol in situations where it's not safe, such as when driving or swimming
Developing a tolerance to alcohol so you need more to feel its effect or you have a reduced effect from the same amount
Experiencing withdrawal symptoms — such as nausea, sweating and shaking — when you don't drink, or drinking to avoid these symptoms

More than half are bolded. Maybe he would have withdrawal if he stopped, too. Maybe he's reduced some things to drink, just not enough that people notice.

Anonymous wrote:PP, I am the physician who posted the long post.

I didn't say a choice wasn't involved and I explicitly said consequences are a reality, including dying, losing loved ones who refuse to watch you devolve, etc. I also said, OP can't control what he does.

What I did try to do is explain why his behavior which seems rational is utterly delusional. And to offer information that can be helpful because as a family member, it's hard to see what you can do in this situation.

I also think a good view of this is someone who refuses medical treatment for something that can be treated. If that is the case, what would you do? How would you cope? How would you manage? But again, that is such a personal journey and therapy and Al-Anon can be incredibly helpful.

But I feel terrible for you, PP. But I also feel awful for your ex because it is a shame to see a life go. But again, we don't control the consequences. We just have to move accordingly.

Op here, thank you so much for your time writing the long reply. How can I make him realize he has a treatable disease? He doesn't think he has any problem because he does well at work, spends quality time with kids, volunteer a lot on kids sports, does fair share of household work, etc. I can see his point of view, I even doubt myself "am I the problem?", "am I wrong? maybe he is not actually alcoholic?", I have those doubts all the time. This society normalizes drinking. Parents at my kids sports team all drink way too much way too inappropriately (drinking at the games even it's in the morning?!). My husband thinks he "isn't so bad" compared to others, and if those others are all married and live happily, why do I constantly "picking on him".

However, my husband does think his father is an alcoholic, even though his father was high-functioning too for a long time. He thinks his father is wrong for being like that. But he is doing exactly what his father did.

Anonymous wrote:I'd go to Al-Anon, and may be talk to an attorney to better understand options.

I would second this. There are many, many people there dealing with this issue who will offer support and a sympathetic and informed ear.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How much is he earning? I mean, if he earns a lot of money, then no. Are you trying to get yourself robbed off a great living standard and have some other hussy's kids get the inheritance?
These things always are so dumb. Is he abusive, is he hitting you or the kids, is life without his going to be better than with him? There are a lot of pragmatic questions to ask here.

PP, have you ever lived with an alcoholic. It's like living with a narcissist in the way it robs you of yourself.

She can make arrangements then, separate bedroom, etc. But keep the money.

Anonymous wrote:PP, I am the physician who posted the long post.

I didn't say a choice wasn't involved and I explicitly said consequences are a reality, including dying, losing loved ones who refuse to watch you devolve, etc. I also said, OP can't control what he does.

What I did try to do is explain why his behavior which seems rational is utterly delusional. And to offer information that can be helpful because as a family member, it's hard to see what you can do in this situation.

I also think a good view of this is someone who refuses medical treatment for something that can be treated. If that is the case, what would you do? How would you cope? How would you manage? But again, that is such a personal journey and therapy and Al-Anon can be incredibly helpful.

But I feel terrible for you, PP. But I also feel awful for your ex because it is a shame to see a life go. But again, we don't control the consequences. We just have to move accordingly.

Thanks for this clarification.

Anonymous wrote:For my children, I would not stay with an alcoholic. It will mess them up for life.

Puhlease. This gets so tiresome. There are plenty of alcoholics (by definition) that are wonderful parents. My dad was one of them. He came to every event, supported me in every way, put me through undergrad and grad school. But he drank 6 -8 beers everyday of his life. I never doubted his love and he did not mess me up at all.

PP, I am the physician who posted the long post.

I didn't say a choice wasn't involved and I explicitly said consequences are a reality, including dying, losing loved ones who refuse to watch you devolve, etc. I also said, OP can't control what he does.

What I did try to do is explain why his behavior which seems rational is utterly delusional. And to offer information that can be helpful because as a family member, it's hard to see what you can do in this situation.

I also think a good view of this is someone who refuses medical treatment for something that can be treated. If that is the case, what would you do? How would you cope? How would you manage? But again, that is such a personal journey and therapy and Al-Anon can be incredibly helpful.

But I feel terrible for you, PP. But I also feel awful for your ex because it is a shame to see a life go. But again, we don't control the consequences. We just have to move accordingly.

Anonymous wrote:OP, first, I am so, so sorry. This is incredibly hard. I am physician. I am also someone who got sober at 20, nearly 20 years ago.

Second, this thread is an excellent example of why shame fundamentally adds to the inability of the the person with Alcholism, AuD or a drinking problem to get help. A lot of people view this as a character weakness. Even here, nearly all of the posts where like "'eff him, he's a drunk, loser who should die." Welp, he probably thinks the same thing and is struggling with trying to decide whether or not to hurt himself.

Most people are miserable with this problem. They just box themselves in and it is easier to blip out of go back to the pay-day loan of ease and comfort than to do the hard thing and face that their lives are utterly wrecked and need to be rebuilt brick-by-brick.

Third, people in the throes of an issue with alcohol are literally ill. Mentally ill. Delusional. Full stop. Their brains are literally not functioning correcting and they have an utter inability to manage their way through this, though they might and believe they are because...they are delusional. It is almost like dementia -- you can try as hard to remember, but if your brain isn't working, you're not going to be able to accomplish this.

Fourth, families of people who have illnesses suffer. Again, full stop. Here, it is complicated because this disease is viewed more as a personal failing (hence the shame) than a reality -- this person is sick and needs help and is in denial. And the family is indeed suffering because this person is literally drunk and delusional and people are trying to reason with someone who lacks reason.

Considering the last point, OP. You need to decide if you care enough to view it through this lens or if you just want to cut and run (which is fine!). Regardless, this has impacted you and you need to take steps to take care of your own mental health and a lot of that is processing what is going on here and moving accordingly.

1. He's sick. With a serious, life ending illness.
2. It's an illness where there is a massive amount of shame because it is something that is deemed a weakness of his character than just a fatal disease.
3. He's in denial of said problem.
4. The problem is impacting your life, your collective children's and his.

Considering these points, yes, Al-Anon is incredibly helpful. But I strongly, strongly recommend personal therapy for you. But also considering medical interventions. He needs a physical with blood work. There are also medical interventions than help if he's willing. The shot Vivatrol once a month. I have even seen success with GLP-1s in basically curing AuD. But these won't help the underlying emotional work he needs to do if he can be brave enough to walk through his shame to get treatment.

But the hard thing is you can't do anything but accept where things are. This is out of your control which is why you feel so frustrated he won't just "snap out of it." He won't because he's delusional. He's not gaslighting you. If he is in the throes of addiction, he is literally is splitting his reality. I don't know if that's helpful.

I will say there are literally millions of people who go into recovery. Many people do it quietly because there is so much judgment. I don't talk about my sobriety. I am just a mom with three kids, a husband, house, dog, job, etc. But yes, I don't drink or do drugs. But I also try to model non-judgment around substance abuse because I know one other thing.

It's genetic. My kids may have this. And they need to know that if they fall into the disease and find themselves underwater, there is a way out, no judgment. Consequences, of course (lord, I had some), but no shame.

I'm a PP with an alcoholic husband. If he'll do the bolded, OP has hope.

But consider, very caring doctor, that some people have literally every resource available to do all those medical interventions and take the time for the incredibly painful emotional work, and chose not to for whatever reason. My husband is one of them. He has the prescriptions. He sat on an order for the necessary bloodwork for months without being able/willing to do it. He's been told at least 10 times by us at home and at least 1 or 2 times by his work that there's nothing stopping him from taking the time he needs to go somewhere in-patient. He's aware of Kolmac (which does look excellent, BTW, a PP mentioned it upthread and we'd heard of it through other channels as well) if he wanted virtual IOP to make recovery as easy as possible.

It's also true that any substance use disorder is a disease that involves choice. Are those choices entirely free? No, they are definitely constrained by the disease. I'm not saying that this excuses shaming. However in my own various failings (not substance use disorder), I would find it incredibly disempowering to be told that it's just genetic and I have no control. I want to be able to make good choices to work on myself. I like to give my AUD husband the same courtesy. Yes, he has a disease. But yes, he can still do something about it, just like a cancer sufferer can chose whether or not to do chemo.

OP, first, I am so, so sorry. This is incredibly hard. I am physician. I am also someone who got sober at 20, nearly 20 years ago.

Second, this thread is an excellent example of why shame fundamentally adds to the inability of the the person with Alcholism, AuD or a drinking problem to get help. A lot of people view this as a character weakness. Even here, nearly all of the posts where like "'eff him, he's a drunk, loser who should die." Welp, he probably thinks the same thing and is struggling with trying to decide whether or not to hurt himself.

Most people are miserable with this problem. They just box themselves in and it is easier to blip out of go back to the pay-day loan of ease and comfort than to do the hard thing and face that their lives are utterly wrecked and need to be rebuilt brick-by-brick.

Third, people in the throes of an issue with alcohol are literally ill. Mentally ill. Delusional. Full stop. Their brains are literally not functioning correcting and they have an utter inability to manage their way through this, though they might and believe they are because...they are delusional. It is almost like dementia -- you can try as hard to remember, but if your brain isn't working, you're not going to be able to accomplish this.

Fourth, families of people who have illnesses suffer. Again, full stop. Here, it is complicated because this disease is viewed more as a personal failing (hence the shame) than a reality -- this person is sick and needs help and is in denial. And the family is indeed suffering because this person is literally drunk and delusional and people are trying to reason with someone who lacks reason.

Considering the last point, OP. You need to decide if you care enough to view it through this lens or if you just want to cut and run (which is fine!). Regardless, this has impacted you and you need to take steps to take care of your own mental health and a lot of that is processing what is going on here and moving accordingly.

1. He's sick. With a serious, life ending illness.
2. It's an illness where there is a massive amount of shame because it is something that is deemed a weakness of his character than just a fatal disease.
3. He's in denial of said problem.
4. The problem is impacting your life, your collective children's and his.

Considering these points, yes, Al-Anon is incredibly helpful. But I strongly, strongly recommend personal therapy for you. But also considering medical interventions. He needs a physical with blood work. There are also medical interventions than help if he's willing. The shot Vivatrol once a month. I have even seen success with GLP-1s in basically curing AuD. But these won't help the underlying emotional work he needs to do if he can be brave enough to walk through his shame to get treatment.

But the hard thing is you can't do anything but accept where things are. This is out of your control which is why you feel so frustrated he won't just "snap out of it." He won't because he's delusional. He's not gaslighting you. If he is in the throes of addiction, he is literally is splitting his reality. I don't know if that's helpful.

I will say there are literally millions of people who go into recovery. Many people do it quietly because there is so much judgment. I don't talk about my sobriety. I am just a mom with three kids, a husband, house, dog, job, etc. But yes, I don't drink or do drugs. But I also try to model non-judgment around substance abuse because I know one other thing.

It's genetic. My kids may have this. And they need to know that if they fall into the disease and find themselves underwater, there is a way out, no judgment. Consequences, of course (lord, I had some), but no shame.

Anonymous wrote:How much is he earning? I mean, if he earns a lot of money, then no. Are you trying to get yourself robbed off a great living standard and have some other hussy's kids get the inheritance?
These things always are so dumb. Is he abusive, is he hitting you or the kids, is life without his going to be better than with him? There are a lot of pragmatic questions to ask here.

PP, have you ever lived with an alcoholic. It's like living with a narcissist in the way it robs you of yourself.

How much is he earning? I mean, if he earns a lot of money, then no. Are you trying to get yourself robbed off a great living standard and have some other hussy's kids get the inheritance?
These things always are so dumb. Is he abusive, is he hitting you or the kids, is life without his going to be better than with him? There are a lot of pragmatic questions to ask here.

Anonymous wrote:Just to be a counterweight here, I'm not sure there's enough information to make a decision this definitely. It sounds like he's doing this after the kids are in bed? So they never see him like this. Is it every night? Is the only point of contention /gaslighting about the drinking itself? Or does it entail other claims? I can see that this could be salvaged if some of these are one way.

I'm a PP with a formerly high functioning alcoholic (now just an alcoholic). It started with just drinking after the kids were in bed and they had no idea. Then a little day drinking on weekends. Then there was years of white knuckled sobriety. Then there was a horrible relapse that involved passing out drunk in front of the kids, then the addition of anger and yelling absolutely horrible things at me.

Alcohol Use Disorder is progressive. It will always get worse unless the alcoholic goes into recovery. Always. OP may decide to stay (I did!), but the assumption should be that it will always get worse.