Anonymous
01/14/2025 20:08
Subject: If college is so expensive ... why don't more families get need-based aid?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:We do okay (at around $200K HHI until a 50% jump three years ago) but are not RICH.
We planned. Used the Vanguard college calculator and saved $400-$600 per month in the 529 since birth.
Limited vacations. Public school. Not a lot of meals out. DIY home improvements. No family support.
Both children will graduate with no student loans.
That's wonderful, but isn't it crazy that we have created a system where college without loans even for the well to do requires 22 years of significant monthly savings to pay for 4 years of education.
That is why there is a public school system as an alternative. Private education at "Elite" schools is a luxury good, not a basic need.
How many elite schools do you think would agree with you that they are nothing but frivolous luxury brands?
Not agreeing with me doesn't change reality. And, they know exactly what they are because they have no interest in reducing the scarcity of their product. While it might be challenging in some cases all of the "elite" schools could scale up, but they choose not too because Harvard isn't Harvard at the scale of UMich.
Oh, I absolutely agree with you that elite schools are more about the exclusive brand than anything related to education! And I agree that the schools themselves behave as if they understand this. I just doubt any of them would admit it. Part of being a luxury school is obscuring the fact that you’re more a luxury product than a school. Otherwise the virtuous frugal folks on this thread who won’t buy luxury-brand cars or vacations would also decline to buy luxury-brand diplomas.
You clearly do not have a kid at an ivy nor did you attend elite/ivy. The doors opened were incredible for me. I would not be where I am without that school. The educational experience was better than my sisters who went to (north carolina) state schools, and one of them transferred so went to both: she was shocked at how easy the material was in the state school and how little the average student there cared about education. Ivies are even better now because poor kids are not rare nor feel like they have to hide, and things such as study abroad and summer programs now include full funding for all the low income kids.
Given how many people are likely in the same position as you from lesser schools, I’m not sure I would admit this.
Anonymous
01/14/2025 20:05
Subject: If college is so expensive ... why don't more families get need-based aid?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:We do okay (at around $200K HHI until a 50% jump three years ago) but are not RICH.
We planned. Used the Vanguard college calculator and saved $400-$600 per month in the 529 since birth.
Limited vacations. Public school. Not a lot of meals out. DIY home improvements. No family support.
Both children will graduate with no student loans.
That's wonderful, but isn't it crazy that we have created a system where college without loans even for the well to do requires 22 years of significant monthly savings to pay for 4 years of education.
That is why there is a public school system as an alternative. Private education at "Elite" schools is a luxury good, not a basic need.
How many elite schools do you think would agree with you that they are nothing but frivolous luxury brands?
Well the schools wont' agree, but look at the world around you. Look at your job and the companies you have worked for. You are most likely surrounded by people (in your same position, and in the management levels above you, possibly even into the C suites) that attended State University and schools ranked lower than 100. Good chance you have never heard of some of the schools they people attend. Yet they are paid the same as you, might even be your manager or a few levels up. What you accomplish in life is due to what you put into it, not where you attend college. Once you realize that you will be happier and likely "wealthier"
Sounds like a T150 state school grad basic misunderstanding of statistics.
Median Ivy salary is about $50k/yr more than median non Ivy, across whole career.
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/quote/30/29191582.page
They're onto a point, correlation isn't necessary causation.
My spouse is very smart, went to a T150, got a job in the corp. world, went to a T70 B school changed jobs, got another grad degree, continued to work really hard.....makes $600K
I went to a regional SUNY (college not U so T400?) worked hard, went to a decent B school, worked even harder and aggressively managed my career. In a typical year I make about 7 figures.
We probably couldn't have gotten into Wall St. Finance, or major law but we did get into the Fortune 100 and ran with it.
The fact that this needs to be said every time this discussion comes up says a lot about these so-called elite educations.
Anonymous
01/14/2025 20:02
Subject: Re:If college is so expensive ... why don't more families get need-based aidnt
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Current need based aid models work great under the assumption that you’ve always made a great income. It collapses for families who just recently have high six-figure incomes.
That’s why assets are considered to. Where they break down is if you spend obscene amounts of money you can get the same aid as someone who doesn’t but earns less, or more aid than someone who earns the same but doesn’t spend excessively. They do this because they do not want the boring upper middle class. They want the wealthiest plus some charity cases for optics.
And there it is, the answer to OP’s question.
100%
Anonymous
01/14/2025 19:58
Subject: If college is so expensive ... why don't more families get need-based aid?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:At Harvard: 55% of our undergraduates receive need-based Harvard scholarships.
Are people taking out massive loans or is everyone just actually RICH?
Some people have to decline because they can't afford HYSP after they get accepted. UMD scoops up some of these folks with free tuition.
Yep! There are a lot of qualified kids at UMD and UVA
Anonymous
01/14/2025 19:53
Subject: If college is so expensive ... why don't more families get need-based aid?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:We do okay (at around $200K HHI until a 50% jump three years ago) but are not RICH.
We planned. Used the Vanguard college calculator and saved $400-$600 per month in the 529 since birth.
Limited vacations. Public school. Not a lot of meals out. DIY home improvements. No family support.
Both children will graduate with no student loans.
That's wonderful, but isn't it crazy that we have created a system where college without loans even for the well to do requires 22 years of significant monthly savings to pay for 4 years of education.
That is why there is a public school system as an alternative. Private education at "Elite" schools is a luxury good, not a basic need.
How many elite schools do you think would agree with you that they are nothing but frivolous luxury brands?
Well the schools wont' agree, but look at the world around you. Look at your job and the companies you have worked for. You are most likely surrounded by people (in your same position, and in the management levels above you, possibly even into the C suites) that attended State University and schools ranked lower than 100. Good chance you have never heard of some of the schools they people attend. Yet they are paid the same as you, might even be your manager or a few levels up. What you accomplish in life is due to what you put into it, not where you attend college. Once you realize that you will be happier and likely "wealthier"
Sounds like a T150 state school grad basic misunderstanding of statistics.
Median Ivy salary is about $50k/yr more than median non Ivy, across whole career.
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/quote/30/29191582.page
I’d bet a lot of that is due to Ivy grads being able to go work for dads company, or dads friends company upon graduation — would be interesting to see data on Ivy grad salary alongside family net worth …
Also, I’d bet the majority of the full pay UMC families at the 80-90k/yr schools aren’t having to save for retirement (inheritance) or had homes bought outright for them by family trusts etc. so ya, it might look like a handful of 250k families are affording full pay — but we could full pay too with no mortgage or no retirement to save for…
The trust often pays for the grandkids education too—
so the “UMC” kids at these schools are actually from super wealthy families too.
Full pay, have a mortgage, saving for retirement...no inheritance(grew up poor). Same is true of two of my law partners who have kids at ivy-plus schools. Tell yourself what you want but there are plenty of us who knew to save and do not have family wealth to help.
And, looking back at my ivy friends: the most successful in the larger friend group tended to be poor or middle class at the ivy, now doctors, private equity, partners in law firms, one owns a company they started. Our rich friends were more likely to coast a bit in college and not get into med or law school. They bounced around job to job and never quite found their niche. Some may have gotten daddy's money but none that I know and if it has happened they have not revealed it; they live in a smaller house than we do. Though maybe their parents will be paying for grandkids' college.
Anonymous
01/14/2025 19:38
Subject: Re:If college is so expensive ... why don't more families get need-based aid?
Colleges are looking to improve aid for genuine middle class families, not the DC suburb complainers with million dollar homes: https://magazine.pomona.edu/2024/spring/opening-pomonas-doors-wider-for-middle-income-students/. The majority of these institutions are made up of this subs mythical middle class that make over 250k
Anonymous
01/14/2025 19:38
Subject: If college is so expensive ... why don't more families get need-based aid?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:We do okay (at around $200K HHI until a 50% jump three years ago) but are not RICH.
We planned. Used the Vanguard college calculator and saved $400-$600 per month in the 529 since birth.
Limited vacations. Public school. Not a lot of meals out. DIY home improvements. No family support.
Both children will graduate with no student loans.
That's wonderful, but isn't it crazy that we have created a system where college without loans even for the well to do requires 22 years of significant monthly savings to pay for 4 years of education.
That is why there is a public school system as an alternative. Private education at "Elite" schools is a luxury good, not a basic need.
How many elite schools do you think would agree with you that they are nothing but frivolous luxury brands?
Well the schools wont' agree, but look at the world around you. Look at your job and the companies you have worked for. You are most likely surrounded by people (in your same position, and in the management levels above you, possibly even into the C suites) that attended State University and schools ranked lower than 100. Good chance you have never heard of some of the schools they people attend. Yet they are paid the same as you, might even be your manager or a few levels up. What you accomplish in life is due to what you put into it, not where you attend college. Once you realize that you will be happier and likely "wealthier"
Sounds like a T150 state school grad basic misunderstanding of statistics.
Median Ivy salary is about $50k/yr more than median non Ivy, across whole career.
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/quote/30/29191582.page
I’d bet a lot of that is due to Ivy grads being able to go work for dads company, or dads friends company upon graduation — would be interesting to see data on Ivy grad salary alongside family net worth …
Also, I’d bet the majority of the full pay UMC families at the 80-90k/yr schools aren’t having to save for retirement (inheritance) or had homes bought outright for them by family trusts etc. so ya, it might look like a handful of 250k families are affording full pay — but we could full pay too with no mortgage or no retirement to save for…
The trust often pays for the grandkids education too—
so the “UMC” kids at these schools are actually from super wealthy families too.
Anonymous
01/14/2025 19:37
Subject: If college is so expensive ... why don't more families get need-based aid?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:We do okay (at around $200K HHI until a 50% jump three years ago) but are not RICH.
We planned. Used the Vanguard college calculator and saved $400-$600 per month in the 529 since birth.
Limited vacations. Public school. Not a lot of meals out. DIY home improvements. No family support.
Both children will graduate with no student loans.
That's wonderful, but isn't it crazy that we have created a system where college without loans even for the well to do requires 22 years of significant monthly savings to pay for 4 years of education.
That is why there is a public school system as an alternative. Private education at "Elite" schools is a luxury good, not a basic need.
How many elite schools do you think would agree with you that they are nothing but frivolous luxury brands?
Well the schools wont' agree, but look at the world around you. Look at your job and the companies you have worked for. You are most likely surrounded by people (in your same position, and in the management levels above you, possibly even into the C suites) that attended State University and schools ranked lower than 100. Good chance you have never heard of some of the schools they people attend. Yet they are paid the same as you, might even be your manager or a few levels up. What you accomplish in life is due to what you put into it, not where you attend college. Once you realize that you will be happier and likely "wealthier"
Sounds like a T150 state school grad basic misunderstanding of statistics.
Median Ivy salary is about $50k/yr more than median non Ivy, across whole career.
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/quote/30/29191582.page
They're onto a point, correlation isn't necessary causation.
My spouse is very smart, went to a T150, got a job in the corp. world, went to a T70 B school changed jobs, got another grad degree, continued to work really hard.....makes $600K
I went to a regional SUNY (college not U so T400?) worked hard, went to a decent B school, worked even harder and aggressively managed my career. In a typical year I make about 7 figures.
We probably couldn't have gotten into Wall St. Finance, or major law but we did get into the Fortune 100 and ran with it.
Anonymous
01/14/2025 19:32
Subject: If college is so expensive ... why don't more families get need-based aid?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:We do okay (at around $200K HHI until a 50% jump three years ago) but are not RICH.
We planned. Used the Vanguard college calculator and saved $400-$600 per month in the 529 since birth.
Limited vacations. Public school. Not a lot of meals out. DIY home improvements. No family support.
Both children will graduate with no student loans.
That's wonderful, but isn't it crazy that we have created a system where college without loans even for the well to do requires 22 years of significant monthly savings to pay for 4 years of education.
That is why there is a public school system as an alternative. Private education at "Elite" schools is a luxury good, not a basic need.
How many elite schools do you think would agree with you that they are nothing but frivolous luxury brands?
Not agreeing with me doesn't change reality. And, they know exactly what they are because they have no interest in reducing the scarcity of their product. While it might be challenging in some cases all of the "elite" schools could scale up, but they choose not too because Harvard isn't Harvard at the scale of UMich.
Oh, I absolutely agree with you that elite schools are more about the exclusive brand than anything related to education! And I agree that the schools themselves behave as if they understand this. I just doubt any of them would admit it. Part of being a luxury school is obscuring the fact that you’re more a luxury product than a school. Otherwise the virtuous frugal folks on this thread who won’t buy luxury-brand cars or vacations would also decline to buy luxury-brand diplomas.
You clearly do not have a kid at an ivy nor did you attend elite/ivy. The doors opened were incredible for me. I would not be where I am without that school. The educational experience was better than my sisters who went to (north carolina) state schools, and one of them transferred so went to both: she was shocked at how easy the material was in the state school and how little the average student there cared about education. Ivies are even better now because poor kids are not rare nor feel like they have to hide, and things such as study abroad and summer programs now include full funding for all the low income kids.
NP, I went to an elite school, but there’s so many state schools now with serious peers and more rigorous coursework than the ivies: when I was an instructor on record for Berkeley, the expectations were raised much higher and the necessity to weed out than at an Ivy. There’s also a lot of no serious Ivy students- Harvard is having a class attendance issue and the pre-professional bend to gen z is making higher Ed more and more about grade inflated Econ degrees and IB placement.
Anonymous
01/14/2025 19:30
Subject: If college is so expensive ... why don't more families get need-based aid?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:We do okay (at around $200K HHI until a 50% jump three years ago) but are not RICH.
We planned. Used the Vanguard college calculator and saved $400-$600 per month in the 529 since birth.
Limited vacations. Public school. Not a lot of meals out. DIY home improvements. No family support.
Both children will graduate with no student loans.
That's wonderful, but isn't it crazy that we have created a system where college without loans even for the well to do requires 22 years of significant monthly savings to pay for 4 years of education.
That is why there is a public school system as an alternative. Private education at "Elite" schools is a luxury good, not a basic need.
How many elite schools do you think would agree with you that they are nothing but frivolous luxury brands?
Not agreeing with me doesn't change reality. And, they know exactly what they are because they have no interest in reducing the scarcity of their product. While it might be challenging in some cases all of the "elite" schools could scale up, but they choose not too because Harvard isn't Harvard at the scale of UMich.
Oh, I absolutely agree with you that elite schools are more about the exclusive brand than anything related to education! And I agree that the schools themselves behave as if they understand this. I just doubt any of them would admit it. Part of being a luxury school is obscuring the fact that you’re more a luxury product than a school. Otherwise the virtuous frugal folks on this thread who won’t buy luxury-brand cars or vacations would also decline to buy luxury-brand diplomas.
You clearly do not have a kid at an ivy nor did you attend elite/ivy. The doors opened were incredible for me. I would not be where I am without that school. The educational experience was better than my sisters who went to (north carolina) state schools, and one of them transferred so went to both: she was shocked at how easy the material was in the state school and how little the average student there cared about education. Ivies are even better now because poor kids are not rare nor feel like they have to hide, and things such as study abroad and summer programs now include full funding for all the low income kids.
Exhibit A. They live for the luxury brand but they can’t admit it, even to themselves.
Anonymous
01/14/2025 19:28
Subject: If college is so expensive ... why don't more families get need-based aid?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:At Harvard: 55% of our undergraduates receive need-based Harvard scholarships.
Are people taking out massive loans or is everyone just actually RICH?
Those at Harvard who don't get Need based scholarships are typically making more than $200-250K/year. So yes, if you make more than $250K, it is not unreasonable to assume that you could/should have saved for college.
THe T50 schools/ones that cost $75-90K+/year typically are filled with kids whose parents make $200K+, at least 40-50% of the student families fall into that at most. It's been that way for decades.
And yes, if you make $250K+, it is reasonable to assume you can save for college. You may not choose to save for $90K costs, but certainly for in-state ($30K now).
250k a year pre tax with a family is not that easy to save $400k per kid. It’s just not. The end result is these families of mid level professionals or civil servants don’t get to go to private college. The poor kids do alongside the hedge fund kids.
+1
This was not the case decades ago, but it is now.
Well decades ago it was also just rich kids.
Anonymous
01/14/2025 19:26
Subject: If college is so expensive ... why don't more families get need-based aid?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:We do okay (at around $200K HHI until a 50% jump three years ago) but are not RICH.
We planned. Used the Vanguard college calculator and saved $400-$600 per month in the 529 since birth.
Limited vacations. Public school. Not a lot of meals out. DIY home improvements. No family support.
Both children will graduate with no student loans.
That's wonderful, but isn't it crazy that we have created a system where college without loans even for the well to do requires 22 years of significant monthly savings to pay for 4 years of education.
That is why there is a public school system as an alternative. Private education at "Elite" schools is a luxury good, not a basic need.
How many elite schools do you think would agree with you that they are nothing but frivolous luxury brands?
Not agreeing with me doesn't change reality. And, they know exactly what they are because they have no interest in reducing the scarcity of their product. While it might be challenging in some cases all of the "elite" schools could scale up, but they choose not too because Harvard isn't Harvard at the scale of UMich.
Oh, I absolutely agree with you that elite schools are more about the exclusive brand than anything related to education! And I agree that the schools themselves behave as if they understand this. I just doubt any of them would admit it. Part of being a luxury school is obscuring the fact that you’re more a luxury product than a school. Otherwise the virtuous frugal folks on this thread who won’t buy luxury-brand cars or vacations would also decline to buy luxury-brand diplomas.
You clearly do not have a kid at an ivy nor did you attend elite/ivy. The doors opened were incredible for me. I would not be where I am without that school. The educational experience was better than my sisters who went to (north carolina) state schools, and one of them transferred so went to both: she was shocked at how easy the material was in the state school and how little the average student there cared about education. Ivies are even better now because poor kids are not rare nor feel like they have to hide, and things such as study abroad and summer programs now include full funding for all the low income kids.
Anonymous
01/14/2025 19:25
Subject: If college is so expensive ... why don't more families get need-based aid?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:At Harvard: 55% of our undergraduates receive need-based Harvard scholarships.
Are people taking out massive loans or is everyone just actually RICH?
Those at Harvard who don't get Need based scholarships are typically making more than $200-250K/year. So yes, if you make more than $250K, it is not unreasonable to assume that you could/should have saved for college.
THe T50 schools/ones that cost $75-90K+/year typically are filled with kids whose parents make $200K+, at least 40-50% of the student families fall into that at most. It's been that way for decades.
And yes, if you make $250K+, it is reasonable to assume you can save for college. You may not choose to save for $90K costs, but certainly for in-state ($30K now).
250k a year pre tax with a family is not that easy to save $400k per kid. It’s just not. The end result is these families of mid level professionals or civil servants don’t get to go to private college. The poor kids do alongside the hedge fund kids.
+1
Also the $250k family likely *just* starting earning that amount recently (especially if in early 40s).
$250k HHI for 20+ years is a LOT different then $250k HHI for just 3-4 years before first kid starts college.
Anonymous
01/14/2025 19:24
Subject: Re:If college is so expensive ... why don't more families get need-based aidnt
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Current need based aid models work great under the assumption that you’ve always made a great income. It collapses for families who just recently have high six-figure incomes.
That’s why assets are considered to. Where they break down is if you spend obscene amounts of money you can get the same aid as someone who doesn’t but earns less, or more aid than someone who earns the same but doesn’t spend excessively. They do this because they do not want the boring upper middle class. They want the wealthiest plus some charity cases for optics.
And there it is, the answer to OP’s question.
Anonymous
01/14/2025 19:23
Subject: If college is so expensive ... why don't more families get need-based aid?
Anonymous wrote:Did you think that Harvard was for smart kids? Harvard is and has always been for rich kids
It’s for both. That’s always been the magic mix. But there are far more poor kids competing for seats than rich kids.