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Anonymous wrote:Slightly back on topic I do feel like this is a bit of a bait and switch because when people complained about the size of the buildings going up on Wisconsin (because maybe we wanted more of a human scale and less of Rosslyn 2) we were told not to worry because the development cap would prevent Wisconsin from becoming a street canyon.

Now they are like “oh we’ve maxed out the development cap already, guess we have to raise it”

You think there shouldn't be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on top of the Metro and Purple Line stations?

They hope that politicians and the executives they appoint won't say one thing to achieve an objective and then do another or promise something for the same without coming through. The populace is easily manipulated.

Devlopers (and businesses, in general) have a much more pragmatic take, buying influence to be on the front end of such promises and positioning themselves to profit, accordingly.

I don't remember anyone promising that there wouldn't be any tall buildings in downtown Bethesda, not to mention that it would be an odd promise to make, since there already are tall buildings in downtown Bethesda.

Well maybe you don’t live around there but when the zoning/development cap was last up for debate (2016ish??) the scale of buildings in Bethesda was definitely a hot topic. Lots of “communities not canyons” yard signs.

Of course no one is saying there shouldn’t be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda but there is a difference between 10-15 stories and 15-20 stories and there is a difference if there are a few or blocks and blocks of them.

At the time some people produced illustrations of what Wisconsin ave and downtown Bethesda would look like if those 15+ story buildings were allowed everywhere and the planning board definitely said that was completely unrealistic because of the development cap.

Mathematically you're correct, but meaningfully? Nah. Not to mention that it's been over 100 years since a twenty-story building was considered a [banned-on-DCUM term for a very tall building], and why shouldn't there be blocks and blocks of them?

Because some people don’t want to live in NYC, or even Rosslyn. A lot of people think there is a meaningful difference between a city like DC or Paris where there is still some human scale vs cities with noticeably taller buildings crowding the streets. There are also single family homes a block or two away from DT Bethesda and an extra 50 or 60 feet of building throws off the transition between those areas (if not literally blocks the sun).

Maybe you don’t think there’s a meaningful difference or maybe you think the benefits of increased density are worth it but the point is that instead of having a full discussion of what Bethesda should look like we had this backwards approach where taller buildings were authorized (subject to the overall cap, creating a weird race to build as tall and as soon as possible) while people were assured overall density would stay down but now they are saying actually it doesn’t make sense to keep density down.

That’s why it feels like a bait and switch. If the planning board really thought this was the appropriate level of density they should have owned up to that 10 years ago.

Then don't live in downtown Bethesda. Nobody will be forced to live in downtown Bethesda.

As for the single family houses a few blocks from tall buildings in Bethesda, so what?

You seem willfully obtuse. There is an entire community that lives in and around downtown Bethesda. Yes no one is forcing people to live there but they live there and the whole point of doing planning is so growth happens in a way the community is happy with, not according to the random desires of some
builder.

No, it's not. Especially it's not when you define community as the people who currently live in the immediate area. Whatever the point of planning is, it's NOT prohibiting tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on grounds that people who own houses in in Chevy Chase and Edgemoor don't want to live near tall buildings.

No one said we should leave it up to people in Edgemoor but the suggestion that if you don’t like the planning board proposal you should live somewhere else is bizarre.

The suggestion is that if you don't like living in tall buildings in downtown Bethesda, you shouldn't live in tall buildings in downtown Bethesda. Similarly, if you don't want to live in NYC, don't live in NYC. If you don't want to live in Rosslyn, don't live in Rosslyn.

The whole freaking discussion is not about where people should live but what size buildings should be built in the future in a place people already live so it’s insanely stupid to say live where you want to live.

Downtown Bethesda already has tall buildings, which people are already living in. If you live in a tall building in downtown Bethesda but you think there shouldn't be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda for people to live in, then I don't know what to say.

If you don’t understand the difference between Bethesda with a development cap and Bethesda without a development cap then I don’t really know what to say either because that is what is being discussed.

Bethesda with a development cap has tall buildings. Bethesda without a development cap would have more tall buildings.

Where in Montgomery County do you think there should be tall buildings, if not in downtown Bethesda? Or do you think there shouldn't be anywhere with tall buildings in Montgomery County?

I'm the out of towner who used to live at Grosvenor. My opinion is that tall buildings should be further north. White Flint to Shady Grove. I know some development has happened in these areas over the past 30 years. However, these areas were crappy looking in the 80s-90s and aren't better today. And the housing around them (apartments) is cheaper and some may be due for teardown and bigfoot rebuilding.

White Flint being left as a mudpit is another example of how screwed up things are. I know the owner wants a big payout, but that really damages the fabric of that entire area.

The planning is bad and the economic incentives are apparently quite misaligned with appealing outcomes.

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Anonymous wrote:Slightly back on topic I do feel like this is a bit of a bait and switch because when people complained about the size of the buildings going up on Wisconsin (because maybe we wanted more of a human scale and less of Rosslyn 2) we were told not to worry because the development cap would prevent Wisconsin from becoming a street canyon.

Now they are like “oh we’ve maxed out the development cap already, guess we have to raise it”

You think there shouldn't be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on top of the Metro and Purple Line stations?

They hope that politicians and the executives they appoint won't say one thing to achieve an objective and then do another or promise something for the same without coming through. The populace is easily manipulated.

Devlopers (and businesses, in general) have a much more pragmatic take, buying influence to be on the front end of such promises and positioning themselves to profit, accordingly.

I don't remember anyone promising that there wouldn't be any tall buildings in downtown Bethesda, not to mention that it would be an odd promise to make, since there already are tall buildings in downtown Bethesda.

Well maybe you don’t live around there but when the zoning/development cap was last up for debate (2016ish??) the scale of buildings in Bethesda was definitely a hot topic. Lots of “communities not canyons” yard signs.

Of course no one is saying there shouldn’t be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda but there is a difference between 10-15 stories and 15-20 stories and there is a difference if there are a few or blocks and blocks of them.

At the time some people produced illustrations of what Wisconsin ave and downtown Bethesda would look like if those 15+ story buildings were allowed everywhere and the planning board definitely said that was completely unrealistic because of the development cap.

Mathematically you're correct, but meaningfully? Nah. Not to mention that it's been over 100 years since a twenty-story building was considered a [banned-on-DCUM term for a very tall building], and why shouldn't there be blocks and blocks of them?

Because some people don’t want to live in NYC, or even Rosslyn. A lot of people think there is a meaningful difference between a city like DC or Paris where there is still some human scale vs cities with noticeably taller buildings crowding the streets. There are also single family homes a block or two away from DT Bethesda and an extra 50 or 60 feet of building throws off the transition between those areas (if not literally blocks the sun).

Maybe you don’t think there’s a meaningful difference or maybe you think the benefits of increased density are worth it but the point is that instead of having a full discussion of what Bethesda should look like we had this backwards approach where taller buildings were authorized (subject to the overall cap, creating a weird race to build as tall and as soon as possible) while people were assured overall density would stay down but now they are saying actually it doesn’t make sense to keep density down.

That’s why it feels like a bait and switch. If the planning board really thought this was the appropriate level of density they should have owned up to that 10 years ago.

Then don't live in downtown Bethesda. Nobody will be forced to live in downtown Bethesda.

As for the single family houses a few blocks from tall buildings in Bethesda, so what?

You seem willfully obtuse. There is an entire community that lives in and around downtown Bethesda. Yes no one is forcing people to live there but they live there and the whole point of doing planning is so growth happens in a way the community is happy with, not according to the random desires of some
builder.

No, it's not. Especially it's not when you define community as the people who currently live in the immediate area. Whatever the point of planning is, it's NOT prohibiting tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on grounds that people who own houses in in Chevy Chase and Edgemoor don't want to live near tall buildings.

No one said we should leave it up to people in Edgemoor but the suggestion that if you don’t like the planning board proposal you should live somewhere else is bizarre.

The suggestion is that if you don't like living in tall buildings in downtown Bethesda, you shouldn't live in tall buildings in downtown Bethesda. Similarly, if you don't want to live in NYC, don't live in NYC. If you don't want to live in Rosslyn, don't live in Rosslyn.

The whole freaking discussion is not about where people should live but what size buildings should be built in the future in a place people already live so it’s insanely stupid to say live where you want to live.

Downtown Bethesda already has tall buildings, which people are already living in. If you live in a tall building in downtown Bethesda but you think there shouldn't be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda for people to live in, then I don't know what to say.

If you don’t understand the difference between Bethesda with a development cap and Bethesda without a development cap then I don’t really know what to say either because that is what is being discussed.

Bethesda with a development cap has tall buildings. Bethesda without a development cap would have more tall buildings.

Where in Montgomery County do you think there should be tall buildings, if not in downtown Bethesda? Or do you think there shouldn't be anywhere with tall buildings in Montgomery County?

I don’t think anywhere in MoCo should be denser than the densest part of DC.

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Anonymous wrote:Slightly back on topic I do feel like this is a bit of a bait and switch because when people complained about the size of the buildings going up on Wisconsin (because maybe we wanted more of a human scale and less of Rosslyn 2) we were told not to worry because the development cap would prevent Wisconsin from becoming a street canyon.

Now they are like “oh we’ve maxed out the development cap already, guess we have to raise it”

You think there shouldn't be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on top of the Metro and Purple Line stations?

They hope that politicians and the executives they appoint won't say one thing to achieve an objective and then do another or promise something for the same without coming through. The populace is easily manipulated.

Devlopers (and businesses, in general) have a much more pragmatic take, buying influence to be on the front end of such promises and positioning themselves to profit, accordingly.

I don't remember anyone promising that there wouldn't be any tall buildings in downtown Bethesda, not to mention that it would be an odd promise to make, since there already are tall buildings in downtown Bethesda.

Well maybe you don’t live around there but when the zoning/development cap was last up for debate (2016ish??) the scale of buildings in Bethesda was definitely a hot topic. Lots of “communities not canyons” yard signs.

Of course no one is saying there shouldn’t be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda but there is a difference between 10-15 stories and 15-20 stories and there is a difference if there are a few or blocks and blocks of them.

At the time some people produced illustrations of what Wisconsin ave and downtown Bethesda would look like if those 15+ story buildings were allowed everywhere and the planning board definitely said that was completely unrealistic because of the development cap.

Mathematically you're correct, but meaningfully? Nah. Not to mention that it's been over 100 years since a twenty-story building was considered a [banned-on-DCUM term for a very tall building], and why shouldn't there be blocks and blocks of them?

Because some people don’t want to live in NYC, or even Rosslyn. A lot of people think there is a meaningful difference between a city like DC or Paris where there is still some human scale vs cities with noticeably taller buildings crowding the streets. There are also single family homes a block or two away from DT Bethesda and an extra 50 or 60 feet of building throws off the transition between those areas (if not literally blocks the sun).

Maybe you don’t think there’s a meaningful difference or maybe you think the benefits of increased density are worth it but the point is that instead of having a full discussion of what Bethesda should look like we had this backwards approach where taller buildings were authorized (subject to the overall cap, creating a weird race to build as tall and as soon as possible) while people were assured overall density would stay down but now they are saying actually it doesn’t make sense to keep density down.

That’s why it feels like a bait and switch. If the planning board really thought this was the appropriate level of density they should have owned up to that 10 years ago.

Then don't live in downtown Bethesda. Nobody will be forced to live in downtown Bethesda.

As for the single family houses a few blocks from tall buildings in Bethesda, so what?

You seem willfully obtuse. There is an entire community that lives in and around downtown Bethesda. Yes no one is forcing people to live there but they live there and the whole point of doing planning is so growth happens in a way the community is happy with, not according to the random desires of some
builder.

No, it's not. Especially it's not when you define community as the people who currently live in the immediate area. Whatever the point of planning is, it's NOT prohibiting tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on grounds that people who own houses in in Chevy Chase and Edgemoor don't want to live near tall buildings.

No one said we should leave it up to people in Edgemoor but the suggestion that if you don’t like the planning board proposal you should live somewhere else is bizarre.

The suggestion is that if you don't like living in tall buildings in downtown Bethesda, you shouldn't live in tall buildings in downtown Bethesda. Similarly, if you don't want to live in NYC, don't live in NYC. If you don't want to live in Rosslyn, don't live in Rosslyn.

The whole freaking discussion is not about where people should live but what size buildings should be built in the future in a place people already live so it’s insanely stupid to say live where you want to live.

Downtown Bethesda already has tall buildings, which people are already living in. If you live in a tall building in downtown Bethesda but you think there shouldn't be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda for people to live in, then I don't know what to say.

If you don’t understand the difference between Bethesda with a development cap and Bethesda without a development cap then I don’t really know what to say either because that is what is being discussed.

Bethesda with a development cap has tall buildings. Bethesda without a development cap would have more tall buildings.

Where in Montgomery County do you think there should be tall buildings, if not in downtown Bethesda? Or do you think there shouldn't be anywhere with tall buildings in Montgomery County?

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Anonymous wrote:Slightly back on topic I do feel like this is a bit of a bait and switch because when people complained about the size of the buildings going up on Wisconsin (because maybe we wanted more of a human scale and less of Rosslyn 2) we were told not to worry because the development cap would prevent Wisconsin from becoming a street canyon.

Now they are like “oh we’ve maxed out the development cap already, guess we have to raise it”

You think there shouldn't be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on top of the Metro and Purple Line stations?

They hope that politicians and the executives they appoint won't say one thing to achieve an objective and then do another or promise something for the same without coming through. The populace is easily manipulated.

Devlopers (and businesses, in general) have a much more pragmatic take, buying influence to be on the front end of such promises and positioning themselves to profit, accordingly.

I don't remember anyone promising that there wouldn't be any tall buildings in downtown Bethesda, not to mention that it would be an odd promise to make, since there already are tall buildings in downtown Bethesda.

Well maybe you don’t live around there but when the zoning/development cap was last up for debate (2016ish??) the scale of buildings in Bethesda was definitely a hot topic. Lots of “communities not canyons” yard signs.

Of course no one is saying there shouldn’t be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda but there is a difference between 10-15 stories and 15-20 stories and there is a difference if there are a few or blocks and blocks of them.

At the time some people produced illustrations of what Wisconsin ave and downtown Bethesda would look like if those 15+ story buildings were allowed everywhere and the planning board definitely said that was completely unrealistic because of the development cap.

Mathematically you're correct, but meaningfully? Nah. Not to mention that it's been over 100 years since a twenty-story building was considered a [banned-on-DCUM term for a very tall building], and why shouldn't there be blocks and blocks of them?

Because some people don’t want to live in NYC, or even Rosslyn. A lot of people think there is a meaningful difference between a city like DC or Paris where there is still some human scale vs cities with noticeably taller buildings crowding the streets. There are also single family homes a block or two away from DT Bethesda and an extra 50 or 60 feet of building throws off the transition between those areas (if not literally blocks the sun).

Maybe you don’t think there’s a meaningful difference or maybe you think the benefits of increased density are worth it but the point is that instead of having a full discussion of what Bethesda should look like we had this backwards approach where taller buildings were authorized (subject to the overall cap, creating a weird race to build as tall and as soon as possible) while people were assured overall density would stay down but now they are saying actually it doesn’t make sense to keep density down.

That’s why it feels like a bait and switch. If the planning board really thought this was the appropriate level of density they should have owned up to that 10 years ago.

Then don't live in downtown Bethesda. Nobody will be forced to live in downtown Bethesda.

As for the single family houses a few blocks from tall buildings in Bethesda, so what?

You seem willfully obtuse. There is an entire community that lives in and around downtown Bethesda. Yes no one is forcing people to live there but they live there and the whole point of doing planning is so growth happens in a way the community is happy with, not according to the random desires of some
builder.

No, it's not. Especially it's not when you define community as the people who currently live in the immediate area. Whatever the point of planning is, it's NOT prohibiting tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on grounds that people who own houses in in Chevy Chase and Edgemoor don't want to live near tall buildings.

No one said we should leave it up to people in Edgemoor but the suggestion that if you don’t like the planning board proposal you should live somewhere else is bizarre.

The suggestion is that if you don't like living in tall buildings in downtown Bethesda, you shouldn't live in tall buildings in downtown Bethesda. Similarly, if you don't want to live in NYC, don't live in NYC. If you don't want to live in Rosslyn, don't live in Rosslyn.

I live in Bethesda because it’s not Rosslyn so I’d really prefer if no one turned it into Rosslyn.

Do you live in downtown Bethesda? Edgemoor is not downtown Bethesda, and neither is East Bethesda.

Is your point that only people living within the BID borders has the right to an opinion about how dense Bethesda should be? What’s the justification for that gate keeping?

Anyone has the right to any opinion about building heights and density in any part of Bethesda that they want to have. That's not the issue. The issue is whether you would have to move if downtown Bethesda started having too many tall buildings for you to want to live there.

If you live in Edgemoor, then you don't live in downtown Bethesda. Therefore, you wouldn't have to move if downtown Bethesda started having too many tall buildings for you to want to live there. Because you don't live there, you live in Edgemoor! You could stay right there living in Edgemoor.

On the other hand, if you actually do live in downtown Bethesda, then you would have to move if downtown Bethesda started having too many tall buildings for you to want to live there.

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Anonymous wrote:Slightly back on topic I do feel like this is a bit of a bait and switch because when people complained about the size of the buildings going up on Wisconsin (because maybe we wanted more of a human scale and less of Rosslyn 2) we were told not to worry because the development cap would prevent Wisconsin from becoming a street canyon.

Now they are like “oh we’ve maxed out the development cap already, guess we have to raise it”

You think there shouldn't be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on top of the Metro and Purple Line stations?

They hope that politicians and the executives they appoint won't say one thing to achieve an objective and then do another or promise something for the same without coming through. The populace is easily manipulated.

Devlopers (and businesses, in general) have a much more pragmatic take, buying influence to be on the front end of such promises and positioning themselves to profit, accordingly.

I don't remember anyone promising that there wouldn't be any tall buildings in downtown Bethesda, not to mention that it would be an odd promise to make, since there already are tall buildings in downtown Bethesda.

Well maybe you don’t live around there but when the zoning/development cap was last up for debate (2016ish??) the scale of buildings in Bethesda was definitely a hot topic. Lots of “communities not canyons” yard signs.

Of course no one is saying there shouldn’t be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda but there is a difference between 10-15 stories and 15-20 stories and there is a difference if there are a few or blocks and blocks of them.

At the time some people produced illustrations of what Wisconsin ave and downtown Bethesda would look like if those 15+ story buildings were allowed everywhere and the planning board definitely said that was completely unrealistic because of the development cap.

Mathematically you're correct, but meaningfully? Nah. Not to mention that it's been over 100 years since a twenty-story building was considered a [banned-on-DCUM term for a very tall building], and why shouldn't there be blocks and blocks of them?

Because some people don’t want to live in NYC, or even Rosslyn. A lot of people think there is a meaningful difference between a city like DC or Paris where there is still some human scale vs cities with noticeably taller buildings crowding the streets. There are also single family homes a block or two away from DT Bethesda and an extra 50 or 60 feet of building throws off the transition between those areas (if not literally blocks the sun).

Maybe you don’t think there’s a meaningful difference or maybe you think the benefits of increased density are worth it but the point is that instead of having a full discussion of what Bethesda should look like we had this backwards approach where taller buildings were authorized (subject to the overall cap, creating a weird race to build as tall and as soon as possible) while people were assured overall density would stay down but now they are saying actually it doesn’t make sense to keep density down.

That’s why it feels like a bait and switch. If the planning board really thought this was the appropriate level of density they should have owned up to that 10 years ago.

Then don't live in downtown Bethesda. Nobody will be forced to live in downtown Bethesda.

As for the single family houses a few blocks from tall buildings in Bethesda, so what?

You seem willfully obtuse. There is an entire community that lives in and around downtown Bethesda. Yes no one is forcing people to live there but they live there and the whole point of doing planning is so growth happens in a way the community is happy with, not according to the random desires of some
builder.

No, it's not. Especially it's not when you define community as the people who currently live in the immediate area. Whatever the point of planning is, it's NOT prohibiting tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on grounds that people who own houses in in Chevy Chase and Edgemoor don't want to live near tall buildings.

No one said we should leave it up to people in Edgemoor but the suggestion that if you don’t like the planning board proposal you should live somewhere else is bizarre.

The suggestion is that if you don't like living in tall buildings in downtown Bethesda, you shouldn't live in tall buildings in downtown Bethesda. Similarly, if you don't want to live in NYC, don't live in NYC. If you don't want to live in Rosslyn, don't live in Rosslyn.

I live in Bethesda because it’s not Rosslyn so I’d really prefer if no one turned it into Rosslyn.

Do you live in downtown Bethesda? Edgemoor is not downtown Bethesda, and neither is East Bethesda.

Is your point that only people living within the BID borders has the right to an opinion about how dense Bethesda should be? What’s the justification for that gate keeping?

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Anonymous wrote:Slightly back on topic I do feel like this is a bit of a bait and switch because when people complained about the size of the buildings going up on Wisconsin (because maybe we wanted more of a human scale and less of Rosslyn 2) we were told not to worry because the development cap would prevent Wisconsin from becoming a street canyon.

Now they are like “oh we’ve maxed out the development cap already, guess we have to raise it”

You think there shouldn't be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on top of the Metro and Purple Line stations?

They hope that politicians and the executives they appoint won't say one thing to achieve an objective and then do another or promise something for the same without coming through. The populace is easily manipulated.

Devlopers (and businesses, in general) have a much more pragmatic take, buying influence to be on the front end of such promises and positioning themselves to profit, accordingly.

I don't remember anyone promising that there wouldn't be any tall buildings in downtown Bethesda, not to mention that it would be an odd promise to make, since there already are tall buildings in downtown Bethesda.

Well maybe you don’t live around there but when the zoning/development cap was last up for debate (2016ish??) the scale of buildings in Bethesda was definitely a hot topic. Lots of “communities not canyons” yard signs.

Of course no one is saying there shouldn’t be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda but there is a difference between 10-15 stories and 15-20 stories and there is a difference if there are a few or blocks and blocks of them.

At the time some people produced illustrations of what Wisconsin ave and downtown Bethesda would look like if those 15+ story buildings were allowed everywhere and the planning board definitely said that was completely unrealistic because of the development cap.

Mathematically you're correct, but meaningfully? Nah. Not to mention that it's been over 100 years since a twenty-story building was considered a [banned-on-DCUM term for a very tall building], and why shouldn't there be blocks and blocks of them?

Because some people don’t want to live in NYC, or even Rosslyn. A lot of people think there is a meaningful difference between a city like DC or Paris where there is still some human scale vs cities with noticeably taller buildings crowding the streets. There are also single family homes a block or two away from DT Bethesda and an extra 50 or 60 feet of building throws off the transition between those areas (if not literally blocks the sun).

Maybe you don’t think there’s a meaningful difference or maybe you think the benefits of increased density are worth it but the point is that instead of having a full discussion of what Bethesda should look like we had this backwards approach where taller buildings were authorized (subject to the overall cap, creating a weird race to build as tall and as soon as possible) while people were assured overall density would stay down but now they are saying actually it doesn’t make sense to keep density down.

That’s why it feels like a bait and switch. If the planning board really thought this was the appropriate level of density they should have owned up to that 10 years ago.

Then don't live in downtown Bethesda. Nobody will be forced to live in downtown Bethesda.

As for the single family houses a few blocks from tall buildings in Bethesda, so what?

You seem willfully obtuse. There is an entire community that lives in and around downtown Bethesda. Yes no one is forcing people to live there but they live there and the whole point of doing planning is so growth happens in a way the community is happy with, not according to the random desires of some
builder.

No, it's not. Especially it's not when you define community as the people who currently live in the immediate area. Whatever the point of planning is, it's NOT prohibiting tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on grounds that people who own houses in in Chevy Chase and Edgemoor don't want to live near tall buildings.

No one said we should leave it up to people in Edgemoor but the suggestion that if you don’t like the planning board proposal you should live somewhere else is bizarre.

The suggestion is that if you don't like living in tall buildings in downtown Bethesda, you shouldn't live in tall buildings in downtown Bethesda. Similarly, if you don't want to live in NYC, don't live in NYC. If you don't want to live in Rosslyn, don't live in Rosslyn.

The whole freaking discussion is not about where people should live but what size buildings should be built in the future in a place people already live so it’s insanely stupid to say live where you want to live.

Downtown Bethesda already has tall buildings, which people are already living in. If you live in a tall building in downtown Bethesda but you think there shouldn't be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda for people to live in, then I don't know what to say.

If you don’t understand the difference between Bethesda with a development cap and Bethesda without a development cap then I don’t really know what to say either because that is what is being discussed.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Slightly back on topic I do feel like this is a bit of a bait and switch because when people complained about the size of the buildings going up on Wisconsin (because maybe we wanted more of a human scale and less of Rosslyn 2) we were told not to worry because the development cap would prevent Wisconsin from becoming a street canyon.

Now they are like “oh we’ve maxed out the development cap already, guess we have to raise it”

You think there shouldn't be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on top of the Metro and Purple Line stations?

They hope that politicians and the executives they appoint won't say one thing to achieve an objective and then do another or promise something for the same without coming through. The populace is easily manipulated.

Devlopers (and businesses, in general) have a much more pragmatic take, buying influence to be on the front end of such promises and positioning themselves to profit, accordingly.

I don't remember anyone promising that there wouldn't be any tall buildings in downtown Bethesda, not to mention that it would be an odd promise to make, since there already are tall buildings in downtown Bethesda.

Well maybe you don’t live around there but when the zoning/development cap was last up for debate (2016ish??) the scale of buildings in Bethesda was definitely a hot topic. Lots of “communities not canyons” yard signs.

Of course no one is saying there shouldn’t be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda but there is a difference between 10-15 stories and 15-20 stories and there is a difference if there are a few or blocks and blocks of them.

At the time some people produced illustrations of what Wisconsin ave and downtown Bethesda would look like if those 15+ story buildings were allowed everywhere and the planning board definitely said that was completely unrealistic because of the development cap.

Mathematically you're correct, but meaningfully? Nah. Not to mention that it's been over 100 years since a twenty-story building was considered a [banned-on-DCUM term for a very tall building], and why shouldn't there be blocks and blocks of them?

Because some people don’t want to live in NYC, or even Rosslyn. A lot of people think there is a meaningful difference between a city like DC or Paris where there is still some human scale vs cities with noticeably taller buildings crowding the streets. There are also single family homes a block or two away from DT Bethesda and an extra 50 or 60 feet of building throws off the transition between those areas (if not literally blocks the sun).

Maybe you don’t think there’s a meaningful difference or maybe you think the benefits of increased density are worth it but the point is that instead of having a full discussion of what Bethesda should look like we had this backwards approach where taller buildings were authorized (subject to the overall cap, creating a weird race to build as tall and as soon as possible) while people were assured overall density would stay down but now they are saying actually it doesn’t make sense to keep density down.

That’s why it feels like a bait and switch. If the planning board really thought this was the appropriate level of density they should have owned up to that 10 years ago.

Then don't live in downtown Bethesda. Nobody will be forced to live in downtown Bethesda.

As for the single family houses a few blocks from tall buildings in Bethesda, so what?

You seem willfully obtuse. There is an entire community that lives in and around downtown Bethesda. Yes no one is forcing people to live there but they live there and the whole point of doing planning is so growth happens in a way the community is happy with, not according to the random desires of some
builder.

No, it's not. Especially it's not when you define community as the people who currently live in the immediate area. Whatever the point of planning is, it's NOT prohibiting tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on grounds that people who own houses in in Chevy Chase and Edgemoor don't want to live near tall buildings.

No one said we should leave it up to people in Edgemoor but the suggestion that if you don’t like the planning board proposal you should live somewhere else is bizarre.

The suggestion is that if you don't like living in tall buildings in downtown Bethesda, you shouldn't live in tall buildings in downtown Bethesda. Similarly, if you don't want to live in NYC, don't live in NYC. If you don't want to live in Rosslyn, don't live in Rosslyn.

I live in Bethesda because it’s not Rosslyn so I’d really prefer if no one turned it into Rosslyn.

DP. I'm the person who first mentioned Rosslyn on this thread. I hate how Rosslyn looks. When I was fresh out of college in the early 90s, I looked at apartments on the Red Line from Dupont to Twinbrook and Blue/Orange from Rosslyn out a few stops. At the time, downtown Bethesda was much nicer looking than it is today. I ended up in a lovely studio on the 12th floor in a high rise at Grosvenor/Strathmore. You could see the Kensington trees and Metro out my window. I walked along a stream/wetland path to get to the Metro. It was very nice.

Bethesda was always too expensive for me, both for apartments and buying a house. I eventually moved somewhere like Bethesda in another state and it is great. I spent a few days at the Bethesda Hyatt in 2022 and felt that Bethesda has indeed lost a lot of its "town" charm. It is canyonized already - that is a perfect expression.

Ideally the Bethesda townscape would look like Paris or residential-heavy DC. Really ugly, plain, tall office and apartment buildings with no architectural style don't help create a community feel. And the sightlines are definitely disappearing as the buildings get taller. Original small town buildings are dwarfed - how is the Tastee Diner still surviving? Why did the post office leave its historic building?

It's a shame that downtown Bethesda couldn't have been made much nicer in 30 years given all the wealth, brains, and public service oriented professionals living in the area. I'm not a NIMBY and I even lived in a high rise nearby. I agree that the locals should resist bad plans. Even now the damage can only be limited, not reversed.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Slightly back on topic I do feel like this is a bit of a bait and switch because when people complained about the size of the buildings going up on Wisconsin (because maybe we wanted more of a human scale and less of Rosslyn 2) we were told not to worry because the development cap would prevent Wisconsin from becoming a street canyon.

Now they are like “oh we’ve maxed out the development cap already, guess we have to raise it”

You think there shouldn't be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on top of the Metro and Purple Line stations?

They hope that politicians and the executives they appoint won't say one thing to achieve an objective and then do another or promise something for the same without coming through. The populace is easily manipulated.

Devlopers (and businesses, in general) have a much more pragmatic take, buying influence to be on the front end of such promises and positioning themselves to profit, accordingly.

I don't remember anyone promising that there wouldn't be any tall buildings in downtown Bethesda, not to mention that it would be an odd promise to make, since there already are tall buildings in downtown Bethesda.

Well maybe you don’t live around there but when the zoning/development cap was last up for debate (2016ish??) the scale of buildings in Bethesda was definitely a hot topic. Lots of “communities not canyons” yard signs.

Of course no one is saying there shouldn’t be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda but there is a difference between 10-15 stories and 15-20 stories and there is a difference if there are a few or blocks and blocks of them.

At the time some people produced illustrations of what Wisconsin ave and downtown Bethesda would look like if those 15+ story buildings were allowed everywhere and the planning board definitely said that was completely unrealistic because of the development cap.

Mathematically you're correct, but meaningfully? Nah. Not to mention that it's been over 100 years since a twenty-story building was considered a [banned-on-DCUM term for a very tall building], and why shouldn't there be blocks and blocks of them?

Because some people don’t want to live in NYC, or even Rosslyn. A lot of people think there is a meaningful difference between a city like DC or Paris where there is still some human scale vs cities with noticeably taller buildings crowding the streets. There are also single family homes a block or two away from DT Bethesda and an extra 50 or 60 feet of building throws off the transition between those areas (if not literally blocks the sun).

Maybe you don’t think there’s a meaningful difference or maybe you think the benefits of increased density are worth it but the point is that instead of having a full discussion of what Bethesda should look like we had this backwards approach where taller buildings were authorized (subject to the overall cap, creating a weird race to build as tall and as soon as possible) while people were assured overall density would stay down but now they are saying actually it doesn’t make sense to keep density down.

That’s why it feels like a bait and switch. If the planning board really thought this was the appropriate level of density they should have owned up to that 10 years ago.

Then don't live in downtown Bethesda. Nobody will be forced to live in downtown Bethesda.

As for the single family houses a few blocks from tall buildings in Bethesda, so what?

You seem willfully obtuse. There is an entire community that lives in and around downtown Bethesda. Yes no one is forcing people to live there but they live there and the whole point of doing planning is so growth happens in a way the community is happy with, not according to the random desires of some
builder.

No, it's not. Especially it's not when you define community as the people who currently live in the immediate area. Whatever the point of planning is, it's NOT prohibiting tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on grounds that people who own houses in in Chevy Chase and Edgemoor don't want to live near tall buildings.

No one said we should leave it up to people in Edgemoor but the suggestion that if you don’t like the planning board proposal you should live somewhere else is bizarre.

The suggestion is that if you don't like living in tall buildings in downtown Bethesda, you shouldn't live in tall buildings in downtown Bethesda. Similarly, if you don't want to live in NYC, don't live in NYC. If you don't want to live in Rosslyn, don't live in Rosslyn.

The whole freaking discussion is not about where people should live but what size buildings should be built in the future in a place people already live so it’s insanely stupid to say live where you want to live.

Downtown Bethesda already has tall buildings, which people are already living in. If you live in a tall building in downtown Bethesda but you think there shouldn't be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda for people to live in, then I don't know what to say.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Slightly back on topic I do feel like this is a bit of a bait and switch because when people complained about the size of the buildings going up on Wisconsin (because maybe we wanted more of a human scale and less of Rosslyn 2) we were told not to worry because the development cap would prevent Wisconsin from becoming a street canyon.

Now they are like “oh we’ve maxed out the development cap already, guess we have to raise it”

You think there shouldn't be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on top of the Metro and Purple Line stations?

They hope that politicians and the executives they appoint won't say one thing to achieve an objective and then do another or promise something for the same without coming through. The populace is easily manipulated.

Devlopers (and businesses, in general) have a much more pragmatic take, buying influence to be on the front end of such promises and positioning themselves to profit, accordingly.

I don't remember anyone promising that there wouldn't be any tall buildings in downtown Bethesda, not to mention that it would be an odd promise to make, since there already are tall buildings in downtown Bethesda.

Well maybe you don’t live around there but when the zoning/development cap was last up for debate (2016ish??) the scale of buildings in Bethesda was definitely a hot topic. Lots of “communities not canyons” yard signs.

Of course no one is saying there shouldn’t be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda but there is a difference between 10-15 stories and 15-20 stories and there is a difference if there are a few or blocks and blocks of them.

At the time some people produced illustrations of what Wisconsin ave and downtown Bethesda would look like if those 15+ story buildings were allowed everywhere and the planning board definitely said that was completely unrealistic because of the development cap.

Mathematically you're correct, but meaningfully? Nah. Not to mention that it's been over 100 years since a twenty-story building was considered a [banned-on-DCUM term for a very tall building], and why shouldn't there be blocks and blocks of them?

Because some people don’t want to live in NYC, or even Rosslyn. A lot of people think there is a meaningful difference between a city like DC or Paris where there is still some human scale vs cities with noticeably taller buildings crowding the streets. There are also single family homes a block or two away from DT Bethesda and an extra 50 or 60 feet of building throws off the transition between those areas (if not literally blocks the sun).

Maybe you don’t think there’s a meaningful difference or maybe you think the benefits of increased density are worth it but the point is that instead of having a full discussion of what Bethesda should look like we had this backwards approach where taller buildings were authorized (subject to the overall cap, creating a weird race to build as tall and as soon as possible) while people were assured overall density would stay down but now they are saying actually it doesn’t make sense to keep density down.

That’s why it feels like a bait and switch. If the planning board really thought this was the appropriate level of density they should have owned up to that 10 years ago.

Then don't live in downtown Bethesda. Nobody will be forced to live in downtown Bethesda.

As for the single family houses a few blocks from tall buildings in Bethesda, so what?

You seem willfully obtuse. There is an entire community that lives in and around downtown Bethesda. Yes no one is forcing people to live there but they live there and the whole point of doing planning is so growth happens in a way the community is happy with, not according to the random desires of some
builder.

No, it's not. Especially it's not when you define community as the people who currently live in the immediate area. Whatever the point of planning is, it's NOT prohibiting tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on grounds that people who own houses in in Chevy Chase and Edgemoor don't want to live near tall buildings.

No one said we should leave it up to people in Edgemoor but the suggestion that if you don’t like the planning board proposal you should live somewhere else is bizarre.

The suggestion is that if you don't like living in tall buildings in downtown Bethesda, you shouldn't live in tall buildings in downtown Bethesda. Similarly, if you don't want to live in NYC, don't live in NYC. If you don't want to live in Rosslyn, don't live in Rosslyn.

I live in Bethesda because it’s not Rosslyn so I’d really prefer if no one turned it into Rosslyn.

Do you live in downtown Bethesda? Edgemoor is not downtown Bethesda, and neither is East Bethesda.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Slightly back on topic I do feel like this is a bit of a bait and switch because when people complained about the size of the buildings going up on Wisconsin (because maybe we wanted more of a human scale and less of Rosslyn 2) we were told not to worry because the development cap would prevent Wisconsin from becoming a street canyon.

Now they are like “oh we’ve maxed out the development cap already, guess we have to raise it”

You think there shouldn't be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on top of the Metro and Purple Line stations?

They hope that politicians and the executives they appoint won't say one thing to achieve an objective and then do another or promise something for the same without coming through. The populace is easily manipulated.

Devlopers (and businesses, in general) have a much more pragmatic take, buying influence to be on the front end of such promises and positioning themselves to profit, accordingly.

I don't remember anyone promising that there wouldn't be any tall buildings in downtown Bethesda, not to mention that it would be an odd promise to make, since there already are tall buildings in downtown Bethesda.

Well maybe you don’t live around there but when the zoning/development cap was last up for debate (2016ish??) the scale of buildings in Bethesda was definitely a hot topic. Lots of “communities not canyons” yard signs.

Of course no one is saying there shouldn’t be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda but there is a difference between 10-15 stories and 15-20 stories and there is a difference if there are a few or blocks and blocks of them.

At the time some people produced illustrations of what Wisconsin ave and downtown Bethesda would look like if those 15+ story buildings were allowed everywhere and the planning board definitely said that was completely unrealistic because of the development cap.

Mathematically you're correct, but meaningfully? Nah. Not to mention that it's been over 100 years since a twenty-story building was considered a [banned-on-DCUM term for a very tall building], and why shouldn't there be blocks and blocks of them?

Because some people don’t want to live in NYC, or even Rosslyn. A lot of people think there is a meaningful difference between a city like DC or Paris where there is still some human scale vs cities with noticeably taller buildings crowding the streets. There are also single family homes a block or two away from DT Bethesda and an extra 50 or 60 feet of building throws off the transition between those areas (if not literally blocks the sun).

Maybe you don’t think there’s a meaningful difference or maybe you think the benefits of increased density are worth it but the point is that instead of having a full discussion of what Bethesda should look like we had this backwards approach where taller buildings were authorized (subject to the overall cap, creating a weird race to build as tall and as soon as possible) while people were assured overall density would stay down but now they are saying actually it doesn’t make sense to keep density down.

That’s why it feels like a bait and switch. If the planning board really thought this was the appropriate level of density they should have owned up to that 10 years ago.

Then don't live in downtown Bethesda. Nobody will be forced to live in downtown Bethesda.

As for the single family houses a few blocks from tall buildings in Bethesda, so what?

You seem willfully obtuse. There is an entire community that lives in and around downtown Bethesda. Yes no one is forcing people to live there but they live there and the whole point of doing planning is so growth happens in a way the community is happy with, not according to the random desires of some
builder.

No, it's not. Especially it's not when you define community as the people who currently live in the immediate area. Whatever the point of planning is, it's NOT prohibiting tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on grounds that people who own houses in in Chevy Chase and Edgemoor don't want to live near tall buildings.

No one said we should leave it up to people in Edgemoor but the suggestion that if you don’t like the planning board proposal you should live somewhere else is bizarre.

The suggestion is that if you don't like living in tall buildings in downtown Bethesda, you shouldn't live in tall buildings in downtown Bethesda. Similarly, if you don't want to live in NYC, don't live in NYC. If you don't want to live in Rosslyn, don't live in Rosslyn.

I live in Bethesda because it’s not Rosslyn so I’d really prefer if no one turned it into Rosslyn.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Slightly back on topic I do feel like this is a bit of a bait and switch because when people complained about the size of the buildings going up on Wisconsin (because maybe we wanted more of a human scale and less of Rosslyn 2) we were told not to worry because the development cap would prevent Wisconsin from becoming a street canyon.

Now they are like “oh we’ve maxed out the development cap already, guess we have to raise it”

You think there shouldn't be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on top of the Metro and Purple Line stations?

They hope that politicians and the executives they appoint won't say one thing to achieve an objective and then do another or promise something for the same without coming through. The populace is easily manipulated.

Devlopers (and businesses, in general) have a much more pragmatic take, buying influence to be on the front end of such promises and positioning themselves to profit, accordingly.

I don't remember anyone promising that there wouldn't be any tall buildings in downtown Bethesda, not to mention that it would be an odd promise to make, since there already are tall buildings in downtown Bethesda.

Well maybe you don’t live around there but when the zoning/development cap was last up for debate (2016ish??) the scale of buildings in Bethesda was definitely a hot topic. Lots of “communities not canyons” yard signs.

Of course no one is saying there shouldn’t be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda but there is a difference between 10-15 stories and 15-20 stories and there is a difference if there are a few or blocks and blocks of them.

At the time some people produced illustrations of what Wisconsin ave and downtown Bethesda would look like if those 15+ story buildings were allowed everywhere and the planning board definitely said that was completely unrealistic because of the development cap.

Mathematically you're correct, but meaningfully? Nah. Not to mention that it's been over 100 years since a twenty-story building was considered a [banned-on-DCUM term for a very tall building], and why shouldn't there be blocks and blocks of them?

Because some people don’t want to live in NYC, or even Rosslyn. A lot of people think there is a meaningful difference between a city like DC or Paris where there is still some human scale vs cities with noticeably taller buildings crowding the streets. There are also single family homes a block or two away from DT Bethesda and an extra 50 or 60 feet of building throws off the transition between those areas (if not literally blocks the sun).

Maybe you don’t think there’s a meaningful difference or maybe you think the benefits of increased density are worth it but the point is that instead of having a full discussion of what Bethesda should look like we had this backwards approach where taller buildings were authorized (subject to the overall cap, creating a weird race to build as tall and as soon as possible) while people were assured overall density would stay down but now they are saying actually it doesn’t make sense to keep density down.

That’s why it feels like a bait and switch. If the planning board really thought this was the appropriate level of density they should have owned up to that 10 years ago.

Then don't live in downtown Bethesda. Nobody will be forced to live in downtown Bethesda.

As for the single family houses a few blocks from tall buildings in Bethesda, so what?

You seem willfully obtuse. There is an entire community that lives in and around downtown Bethesda. Yes no one is forcing people to live there but they live there and the whole point of doing planning is so growth happens in a way the community is happy with, not according to the random desires of some
builder.

No, it's not. Especially it's not when you define community as the people who currently live in the immediate area. Whatever the point of planning is, it's NOT prohibiting tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on grounds that people who own houses in in Chevy Chase and Edgemoor don't want to live near tall buildings.

No one said we should leave it up to people in Edgemoor but the suggestion that if you don’t like the planning board proposal you should live somewhere else is bizarre.

The suggestion is that if you don't like living in tall buildings in downtown Bethesda, you shouldn't live in tall buildings in downtown Bethesda. Similarly, if you don't want to live in NYC, don't live in NYC. If you don't want to live in Rosslyn, don't live in Rosslyn.

The whole freaking discussion is not about where people should live but what size buildings should be built in the future in a place people already live so it’s insanely stupid to say live where you want to live.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Slightly back on topic I do feel like this is a bit of a bait and switch because when people complained about the size of the buildings going up on Wisconsin (because maybe we wanted more of a human scale and less of Rosslyn 2) we were told not to worry because the development cap would prevent Wisconsin from becoming a street canyon.

Now they are like “oh we’ve maxed out the development cap already, guess we have to raise it”

You think there shouldn't be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on top of the Metro and Purple Line stations?

They hope that politicians and the executives they appoint won't say one thing to achieve an objective and then do another or promise something for the same without coming through. The populace is easily manipulated.

Devlopers (and businesses, in general) have a much more pragmatic take, buying influence to be on the front end of such promises and positioning themselves to profit, accordingly.

I don't remember anyone promising that there wouldn't be any tall buildings in downtown Bethesda, not to mention that it would be an odd promise to make, since there already are tall buildings in downtown Bethesda.

Well maybe you don’t live around there but when the zoning/development cap was last up for debate (2016ish??) the scale of buildings in Bethesda was definitely a hot topic. Lots of “communities not canyons” yard signs.

Of course no one is saying there shouldn’t be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda but there is a difference between 10-15 stories and 15-20 stories and there is a difference if there are a few or blocks and blocks of them.

At the time some people produced illustrations of what Wisconsin ave and downtown Bethesda would look like if those 15+ story buildings were allowed everywhere and the planning board definitely said that was completely unrealistic because of the development cap.

Mathematically you're correct, but meaningfully? Nah. Not to mention that it's been over 100 years since a twenty-story building was considered a [banned-on-DCUM term for a very tall building], and why shouldn't there be blocks and blocks of them?

Because some people don’t want to live in NYC, or even Rosslyn. A lot of people think there is a meaningful difference between a city like DC or Paris where there is still some human scale vs cities with noticeably taller buildings crowding the streets. There are also single family homes a block or two away from DT Bethesda and an extra 50 or 60 feet of building throws off the transition between those areas (if not literally blocks the sun).

Maybe you don’t think there’s a meaningful difference or maybe you think the benefits of increased density are worth it but the point is that instead of having a full discussion of what Bethesda should look like we had this backwards approach where taller buildings were authorized (subject to the overall cap, creating a weird race to build as tall and as soon as possible) while people were assured overall density would stay down but now they are saying actually it doesn’t make sense to keep density down.

That’s why it feels like a bait and switch. If the planning board really thought this was the appropriate level of density they should have owned up to that 10 years ago.

Then don't live in downtown Bethesda. Nobody will be forced to live in downtown Bethesda.

As for the single family houses a few blocks from tall buildings in Bethesda, so what?

You seem willfully obtuse. There is an entire community that lives in and around downtown Bethesda. Yes no one is forcing people to live there but they live there and the whole point of doing planning is so growth happens in a way the community is happy with, not according to the random desires of some
builder.

No, it's not. Especially it's not when you define community as the people who currently live in the immediate area. Whatever the point of planning is, it's NOT prohibiting tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on grounds that people who own houses in in Chevy Chase and Edgemoor don't want to live near tall buildings.

No one said we should leave it up to people in Edgemoor but the suggestion that if you don’t like the planning board proposal you should live somewhere else is bizarre.

The suggestion is that if you don't like living in tall buildings in downtown Bethesda, you shouldn't live in tall buildings in downtown Bethesda. Similarly, if you don't want to live in NYC, don't live in NYC. If you don't want to live in Rosslyn, don't live in Rosslyn.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Slightly back on topic I do feel like this is a bit of a bait and switch because when people complained about the size of the buildings going up on Wisconsin (because maybe we wanted more of a human scale and less of Rosslyn 2) we were told not to worry because the development cap would prevent Wisconsin from becoming a street canyon.

Now they are like “oh we’ve maxed out the development cap already, guess we have to raise it”

You think there shouldn't be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on top of the Metro and Purple Line stations?

They hope that politicians and the executives they appoint won't say one thing to achieve an objective and then do another or promise something for the same without coming through. The populace is easily manipulated.

Devlopers (and businesses, in general) have a much more pragmatic take, buying influence to be on the front end of such promises and positioning themselves to profit, accordingly.

I don't remember anyone promising that there wouldn't be any tall buildings in downtown Bethesda, not to mention that it would be an odd promise to make, since there already are tall buildings in downtown Bethesda.

Well maybe you don’t live around there but when the zoning/development cap was last up for debate (2016ish??) the scale of buildings in Bethesda was definitely a hot topic. Lots of “communities not canyons” yard signs.

Of course no one is saying there shouldn’t be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda but there is a difference between 10-15 stories and 15-20 stories and there is a difference if there are a few or blocks and blocks of them.

At the time some people produced illustrations of what Wisconsin ave and downtown Bethesda would look like if those 15+ story buildings were allowed everywhere and the planning board definitely said that was completely unrealistic because of the development cap.

Mathematically you're correct, but meaningfully? Nah. Not to mention that it's been over 100 years since a twenty-story building was considered a [banned-on-DCUM term for a very tall building], and why shouldn't there be blocks and blocks of them?

Because some people don’t want to live in NYC, or even Rosslyn. A lot of people think there is a meaningful difference between a city like DC or Paris where there is still some human scale vs cities with noticeably taller buildings crowding the streets. There are also single family homes a block or two away from DT Bethesda and an extra 50 or 60 feet of building throws off the transition between those areas (if not literally blocks the sun).

Maybe you don’t think there’s a meaningful difference or maybe you think the benefits of increased density are worth it but the point is that instead of having a full discussion of what Bethesda should look like we had this backwards approach where taller buildings were authorized (subject to the overall cap, creating a weird race to build as tall and as soon as possible) while people were assured overall density would stay down but now they are saying actually it doesn’t make sense to keep density down.

That’s why it feels like a bait and switch. If the planning board really thought this was the appropriate level of density they should have owned up to that 10 years ago.

Then don't live in downtown Bethesda. Nobody will be forced to live in downtown Bethesda.

As for the single family houses a few blocks from tall buildings in Bethesda, so what?

You seem willfully obtuse. There is an entire community that lives in and around downtown Bethesda. Yes no one is forcing people to live there but they live there and the whole point of doing planning is so growth happens in a way the community is happy with, not according to the random desires of some
builder.

No, it's not. Especially it's not when you define community as the people who currently live in the immediate area. Whatever the point of planning is, it's NOT prohibiting tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on grounds that people who own houses in in Chevy Chase and Edgemoor don't want to live near tall buildings.

No one said we should leave it up to people in Edgemoor but the suggestion that if you don’t like the planning board proposal you should live somewhere else is bizarre.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Slightly back on topic I do feel like this is a bit of a bait and switch because when people complained about the size of the buildings going up on Wisconsin (because maybe we wanted more of a human scale and less of Rosslyn 2) we were told not to worry because the development cap would prevent Wisconsin from becoming a street canyon.

Now they are like “oh we’ve maxed out the development cap already, guess we have to raise it”

You think there shouldn't be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on top of the Metro and Purple Line stations?

They hope that politicians and the executives they appoint won't say one thing to achieve an objective and then do another or promise something for the same without coming through. The populace is easily manipulated.

Devlopers (and businesses, in general) have a much more pragmatic take, buying influence to be on the front end of such promises and positioning themselves to profit, accordingly.

I don't remember anyone promising that there wouldn't be any tall buildings in downtown Bethesda, not to mention that it would be an odd promise to make, since there already are tall buildings in downtown Bethesda.

Well maybe you don’t live around there but when the zoning/development cap was last up for debate (2016ish??) the scale of buildings in Bethesda was definitely a hot topic. Lots of “communities not canyons” yard signs.

Of course no one is saying there shouldn’t be tall buildings in downtown Bethesda but there is a difference between 10-15 stories and 15-20 stories and there is a difference if there are a few or blocks and blocks of them.

At the time some people produced illustrations of what Wisconsin ave and downtown Bethesda would look like if those 15+ story buildings were allowed everywhere and the planning board definitely said that was completely unrealistic because of the development cap.

Mathematically you're correct, but meaningfully? Nah. Not to mention that it's been over 100 years since a twenty-story building was considered a [banned-on-DCUM term for a very tall building], and why shouldn't there be blocks and blocks of them?

Because some people don’t want to live in NYC, or even Rosslyn. A lot of people think there is a meaningful difference between a city like DC or Paris where there is still some human scale vs cities with noticeably taller buildings crowding the streets. There are also single family homes a block or two away from DT Bethesda and an extra 50 or 60 feet of building throws off the transition between those areas (if not literally blocks the sun).

Maybe you don’t think there’s a meaningful difference or maybe you think the benefits of increased density are worth it but the point is that instead of having a full discussion of what Bethesda should look like we had this backwards approach where taller buildings were authorized (subject to the overall cap, creating a weird race to build as tall and as soon as possible) while people were assured overall density would stay down but now they are saying actually it doesn’t make sense to keep density down.

That’s why it feels like a bait and switch. If the planning board really thought this was the appropriate level of density they should have owned up to that 10 years ago.

Then don't live in downtown Bethesda. Nobody will be forced to live in downtown Bethesda.

As for the single family houses a few blocks from tall buildings in Bethesda, so what?

You seem willfully obtuse. There is an entire community that lives in and around downtown Bethesda. Yes no one is forcing people to live there but they live there and the whole point of doing planning is so growth happens in a way the community is happy with, not according to the random desires of some
builder.

No, it's not. Especially it's not when you define community as the people who currently live in the immediate area. Whatever the point of planning is, it's NOT prohibiting tall buildings in downtown Bethesda on grounds that people who own houses in in Chevy Chase and Edgemoor don't want to live near tall buildings.

If you want libertarian zoning move to northern Virginia