Anonymous wrote:Different schools for those on a university path vs a vocational path. Of course that can’t happen here due to equity . But you have to admit German schools produce much better results .

Better results for whom? The students who are given good preparation to test into the university pathway, sure. The rest of society doesn’t benefit when potential only gets one shot.

Anonymous wrote:The school or teachers don't decide where the kid goes after 9th grade or 12th grade in the old country.
Every kid can go to college or choose a vocational school.
College and vocational schools decide who gets in. Many kids who go to vocational school after 9th or even 12th, can choose to go to college later.
Kids who find college too hard can transfer for open spots in vocational school. Vocational kids can keep trying for college every year. The entrance exams count a lot more than high school grades.
We don't have private colleges pushing kids to take out enormous amount of student loans.
I can't even name a vocational school in DC.

Goggle is your friend. There are 18 of them.

Anonymous wrote:OP,
I get it. I think a lot of people posting don’t really understand how the German system works. It’s not as if you are doomed to some low-level, unimportant job if you fail to show success in 4th grade.

The school choices and offerings are robust and they make sense. No, not everybody should go to college. And it’s not just because of intellect/ability; society doesn’t need everybody to go to college.

German vocational programs are robust, and they lead to very important jobs that provide for stable living. Their on-the-job apprenticeships set students up for success in a way we don’t.

Sounds just like the equivalent programs in the U.S. What is the difference?

Why do people post things like this that are just plain factually incorrect?

Examples:

Pennsylvania:

https://www.pa.gov/en/agencies/education/programs-and-services/instruction/elementary-and-secondary-education/career-and-technical-education.html#:~:text=and%20Secondary%20Education-,Career%20and%20Technical%20Education,academics%20to%20real%2Dworld%20problems.

California:

https://www.cde.ca.gov/ci/ct/

DC:

https://dcpscte.org/schools/

Maryland:

https://marylandpublicschools.org/programs/Pages/CTE/CTEprograms.aspx


And so on.

False premise.

Our high schools DO have vocational paths. You just aren't forced into one if you choose a different path for yourself.

Does it produce better results? Where's your data?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP,
I get it. I think a lot of people posting don’t really understand how the German system works. It’s not as if you are doomed to some low-level, unimportant job if you fail to show success in 4th grade.

The school choices and offerings are robust and they make sense. No, not everybody should go to college. And it’s not just because of intellect/ability; society doesn’t need everybody to go to college.

German vocational programs are robust, and they lead to very important jobs that provide for stable living. Their on-the-job apprenticeships set students up for success in a way we don’t.

In Germany, vocational skills are respected unlike here.
Because over there, the graduates of their programs are understood to be thoroughly knowledgeable about their trade. For example, the assumption here is that factory made is cheaper than custom made. Over there, it is the opposite. The factory made is more expensive and very well made because those folks really know what they are doing. And they are very competitively compensated too as the unions are strong there.

The apprenticeships can be years and those that work in the trades are highly respected in Germany. Bakers take years to master their craft.

Does the German school system allow a (non special-ed) middle schooler to threaten to punch their teacher in front of the class and let them back the next day?

Anonymous wrote:Before anyone gets too horny for the idea of their kids being alone on the university track, a few data points:

1) The German system was deemed so discriminatory that they are being forced to integrate the "academic" track by human rights courts, as the previous system systematically tracked immigrants and the children of immigrants onto the "vocational" track

2) Public satisfaction and test scores for German schools is at an all-time post-war low: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-schools-study/a-66669093

"In one instance, the INSM study looked into fourth graders' reading and listening tests from 2011 and 2021, and found that Bavaria is the only state making "minimal" progress. In fact, while fourth graders from Bremen placed last in 2011, their level of reading and listening comprehension became the new average for Germany by 2021."

Read the study in German from your link. This does not indicate something wrong with the German system in and of itself. I hate to say it, but it’s pretty clear, and the study illuminates this; it’s all a phenomenon of the last 10 years exactly. 10 years ago, Germany admitted 1 million refugees in a matter of days-months into a population of 80 million. The systems in the country were not prepared for this massive and rapid influx. In the past, when immigration was more gradual, foreign language speaking kids were getting small group intensive German language instruction before they were integrated into the general classrooms. (Likewise adults were getting intensive German classes instruction as part of integration btw.) All these systems, classes, and mechanisms were overwhelmed at that time, and never recovered with continued demands. And it’s not just languages. A lot of migrants arrive with significant trauma, especially children. It is just a lot of demands that did not exist previously.

Anonymous wrote:Different schools for those on a university path vs a vocational path. Of course that can’t happen here due to equity . But you have to admit German schools produce much better results .

I’m with you. I don’t know why we have to drag every student through the end of 12th grade academics. Of course, Germans also take great pride in their trade schools. So there’s that. Btw those against it or have asked; you can change your mind and continue/switch paths.