Anonymous wrote:Revoked

Ugh. Sorry.

Lawyers already hired and in probationary period are at risk, too.

Revoked

Uh….yes and it is not a close call after today!

Anonymous wrote:My son graduated with honors last year from a Top 6 law school and is currently doing a federal appellate clerkship

He didn’t take a BigLaw offer while in school and is now gearing up his job search. Hoping for a boutique litigation firm but also just had interviews with a couple of sections for the DOJ Honors Program

After the election, he’s now thinking about totally bailing on DOJ. Would that be a sensible decision? Not a lawyer, so I have no insight to offer him and am looking for advice

Student loan debt isn’t an issue and he doesn’t have a burning desire for public interest / government service, is focusing on trying to find interesting work with decent work-life balance

Do you know what sections he's interested in? Bailing would be a sensible move either way to be honest. But depending on his interests, there might be some great opportunities available right now. This will be an absolutely fascinating time to work in the OIL-District Court or Federal Services branches, for example. Less so Civil Rights and Public Integrity.

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Anonymous wrote:Unless your child has poop for brains, they should get the DOJ Honors program on their resume. Sounds like your kid could be qualified for DOJ’s SO or at least appellate program, which is a step towards the most prestigious and interesting legal jobs in the country. They should already know this.

Reread OP. Their kid is looking as US Trustee or Commercial branch. I’d take high end big law or a lot boutique over those. As someone who had better credentials than OP’s kid and chose not to do honors program, I’m glad I chose big law to start.

Well of course you defend your own choice. But spending three years getting actual substantive responsibility on commercial or bankruptcy litigation, then entering biglaw with a big hiring bonus and having skipped the hazing of document review, is actually the MUCH better career path.

There’s just as much if not more doc review at DOJ than as a mid level at a top big law firm.

I think your son should go BigLaw over DOJ HP. With his credentials, he’ll get a DOJ job after a few years - it may take some time, but he’ll eventually get something.

I’m an alum of DOJ Commercial Lit. I loved it but will say the Honors Program experience can be hit or miss - it all depends on who ends up training and mentoring them. There are brilliant, brilliant lawyers at DOJ Commercial Lit (eg Ken Dintzer, lead trial counsel who just won the US v Google antitrust trial) and getting trained by someone like is invaluable.

But just as often, I’ve seen Honors attorneys thrown into cases without any supervision or get trained by lazy senior attorneys — and they can learn terrible habits and committing malpractice.

For me, I joined DOJ after a few years at a BigLaw - I think the experience there made me so grateful when I landed at DOJ. Because I was the lead attorney, I worked just as hard at DOJ as I did in BigLaw, but it was because I wanted to and not because some partner was yelling at me. It sounds like your son is the type to work hard wherever he ends up). Those of us who came to DOJ after a few years in BigLaw generally were happier than the Honors attorneys, who didn’t know enough to appreciate what they had at DOJ

I don't believe you ever worked at DOJ. If you did, you wouldn't say this.

I headed up HP hiring in my division one year. I think it was the last year we actually printed out applications. I had several stacks on my desk so high they almost toppled over. Most of those applications barely got a glance -- we had to narrow it down somehow. Lateral positions are even harder to get. And the pool of applicants is now bigger, not smaller.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Unless your child has poop for brains, they should get the DOJ Honors program on their resume. Sounds like your kid could be qualified for DOJ’s SO or at least appellate program, which is a step towards the most prestigious and interesting legal jobs in the country. They should already know this.[/quote]

Reread OP. Their kid is looking as US Trustee or Commercial branch. I’d take high end big law or a lot boutique over those. As someone who had better credentials than OP’s kid and chose not to do honors program, I’m glad I chose big law to start. [/quote]

Well of course you defend your own choice. But spending three years getting actual substantive responsibility on commercial or bankruptcy litigation, then entering biglaw with a big hiring bonus and having skipped the[b] hazing of document review,[/b] is actually the MUCH better career path. [/quote]

Plenty of document review in those divisions at DOJ! It is the nature of that type of litigation - huge document productions = huge number of documents to review. You will not get out of it by taking a job at DOJ commercial lit/bankruptcy.[/quote]

In my litigating division there was, yes, a lot of doc review. And I did a lot of it -- [i]on my own cases.[/i] Cases where I did everything else as well.

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Anonymous wrote:No, absolutely not. DOJ honors is a really great way to start a legal career. And it’s supposed to be nonpartisan. If he wants to be a do-gooder he can look for a legal aid fellowship and get paid $35k/yr.

Do you know anything about what happens at DOJ in Republican administrations?

Is there going to be a sea change in bankruptcy, tort, IP, national security …? Sure, civil rights, but that’s a small part of DOJ.

You are wrong. Lawyers in other divisions were pressed into working on immigration cases in the Trump years.

Literally no one was "pressed" into this. People very voluntarily went on detail to work on immigration cases. They were pretty much all lawyers who couldn't stand where the were, and wanted an out.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Unless your child has poop for brains, they should get the DOJ Honors program on their resume. Sounds like your kid could be qualified for DOJ’s SO or at least appellate program, which is a step towards the most prestigious and interesting legal jobs in the country. They should already know this.[/quote]

Reread OP. Their kid is looking as US Trustee or Commercial branch. I’d take high end big law or a lot boutique over those. As someone who had better credentials than OP’s kid and chose not to do honors program, I’m glad I chose big law to start. [/quote]

Well of course you defend your own choice. But spending three years getting actual substantive responsibility on commercial or bankruptcy litigation, then entering biglaw with a big hiring bonus and having skipped the hazing of document review, is actually the MUCH better career path. [/quote]

There’s just as much if not more doc review at DOJ than as a mid level at a top big law firm. [/quote]

I work at a different agency but got voluntold to do a "detail" to DOJ along with 30 others. Sounds exciting but all we did was 6 months of mouse clicking doc review that DOJ couldn't staff themselves.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unless your child has poop for brains, they should get the DOJ Honors program on their resume. Sounds like your kid could be qualified for DOJ’s SO or at least appellate program, which is a step towards the most prestigious and interesting legal jobs in the country. They should already know this.

Reread OP. Their kid is looking as US Trustee or Commercial branch. I’d take high end big law or a lot boutique over those. As someone who had better credentials than OP’s kid and chose not to do honors program, I’m glad I chose big law to start.

Well of course you defend your own choice. But spending three years getting actual substantive responsibility on commercial or bankruptcy litigation, then entering biglaw with a big hiring bonus and having skipped the hazing of document review, is actually the MUCH better career path.

There’s just as much if not more doc review at DOJ than as a mid level at a top big law firm.

I think your son should go BigLaw over DOJ HP. With his credentials, he’ll get a DOJ job after a few years - it may take some time, but he’ll eventually get something.

I’m an alum of DOJ Commercial Lit. I loved it but will say the Honors Program experience can be hit or miss - it all depends on who ends up training and mentoring them. There are brilliant, brilliant lawyers at DOJ Commercial Lit (eg Ken Dintzer, lead trial counsel who just won the US v Google antitrust trial) and getting trained by someone like is invaluable.

But just as often, I’ve seen Honors attorneys thrown into cases without any supervision or get trained by lazy senior attorneys — and they can learn terrible habits and committing malpractice.

For me, I joined DOJ after a few years at a BigLaw - I think the experience there made me so grateful when I landed at DOJ. Because I was the lead attorney, I worked just as hard at DOJ as I did in BigLaw, but it was because I wanted to and not because some partner was yelling at me. It sounds like your son is the type to work hard wherever he ends up). Those of us who came to DOJ after a few years in BigLaw generally were happier than the Honors attorneys, who didn’t know enough to appreciate what they had at DOJ

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, absolutely not. DOJ honors is a really great way to start a legal career. And it’s supposed to be nonpartisan. If he wants to be a do-gooder he can look for a legal aid fellowship and get paid $35k/yr.

Do you know anything about what happens at DOJ in Republican administrations?

Is there going to be a sea change in bankruptcy, tort, IP, national security …? Sure, civil rights, but that’s a small part of DOJ.

I assure you that NSD will be impacted.[u]

Sure but substantively differently? Did Biden and Obama not go after spies, international crime, etc? Sure there are some high profile areas that are more political but lots that are not. But whatever. This kid can take the absolutely most risk averse approach and go on the grind doing doc review defending KBR or helping insurance companies merge at Biglaw instead.

PP - I am so picking up what you're putting down, and agree with you x infinity. And his voters voted for him because they were concerned about "border" security. Bless their hearts.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Unless your child has poop for brains, they should get the DOJ Honors program on their resume. Sounds like your kid could be qualified for DOJ’s SO or at least appellate program, which is a step towards the most prestigious and interesting legal jobs in the country. They should already know this.[/quote]

Reread OP. Their kid is looking as US Trustee or Commercial branch. I’d take high end big law or a lot boutique over those. As someone who had better credentials than OP’s kid and chose not to do honors program, I’m glad I chose big law to start. [/quote]

Well of course you defend your own choice. But spending three years getting actual substantive responsibility on commercial or bankruptcy litigation, then entering biglaw with a big hiring bonus and having skipped the hazing of document review, is actually the MUCH better career path. [/quote]

There’s just as much if not more doc review at DOJ than as a mid level at a top big law firm.

As someone who’s done both a firm and fed service, I second the person who says if they had to do it over again they’d do DOJ honors first. Does your son actually have an offer though? They’re notoriously hard to get.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Unless your child has poop for brains, they should get the DOJ Honors program on their resume. Sounds like your kid could be qualified for DOJ’s SO or at least appellate program, which is a step towards the most prestigious and interesting legal jobs in the country. They should already know this.[/quote]

Reread OP. Their kid is looking as US Trustee or Commercial branch. I’d take high end big law or a lot boutique over those. As someone who had better credentials than OP’s kid and chose not to do honors program, I’m glad I chose big law to start. [/quote]

Well of course you defend your own choice. But spending three years getting actual substantive responsibility on commercial or bankruptcy litigation, then entering biglaw with a big hiring bonus and having skipped the hazing of document review, is actually the MUCH better career path. [/quote]
If the kid has done an appellate clerkship (and possibly and D Ct clerkship) then they aren't starting in Biglaw as a first year. They'll come in as a 2nd or 3rd year.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Unless your child has poop for brains, they should get the DOJ Honors program on their resume. Sounds like your kid could be qualified for DOJ’s SO or at least appellate program, which is a step towards the most prestigious and interesting legal jobs in the country. They should already know this.[/quote]

Reread OP. Their kid is looking as US Trustee or Commercial branch. I’d take high end big law or a lot boutique over those. As someone who had better credentials than OP’s kid and chose not to do honors program, I’m glad I chose big law to start. [/quote]

Well of course you defend your own choice. But spending three years getting actual substantive responsibility on commercial or bankruptcy litigation, then entering biglaw with a big hiring bonus and having skipped the[b] hazing of document review,[/b] is actually the MUCH better career path. [/quote]

Plenty of document review in those divisions at DOJ! It is the nature of that type of litigation - huge document productions = huge number of documents to review. You will not get out of it by taking a job at DOJ commercial lit/bankruptcy.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Unless your child has poop for brains, they should get the DOJ Honors program on their resume. Sounds like your kid could be qualified for DOJ’s SO or at least appellate program, which is a step towards the most prestigious and interesting legal jobs in the country. They should already know this.[/quote]

Reread OP. Their kid is looking as US Trustee or Commercial branch. I’d take high end big law or a lot boutique over those. As someone who had better credentials than OP’s kid and chose not to do honors program, I’m glad I chose big law to start. [/quote]

Well of course you defend your own choice. But spending three years getting actual substantive responsibility on commercial or bankruptcy litigation, then entering biglaw with a big hiring bonus and having skipped the hazing of document review, is actually the MUCH better career path.