Anonymous wrote:This rising 4th grade class is an absolute disaster. They missed fundamental social and behavioral development due to the pandemic and having spent their kindergarten year on computers and 1st grade in masks, at least around here. I’m making no statement about the decisions made at that time but this group of kids is absolutely stunted in their development and their behavior reflect that.

I agree with you. Virtual kindergarten was extremely negative, way worse than no kindergarten at all. Plus we just never left our house. The isolation was terrible. We were all trying to do the right thing but the consequences for mental health were real.

Anonymous wrote:Gentle parenting IS the problem because it’s nearly impossible to do correctly. When are we going to admit this as a society? It’s like all the communism apologists who insist that the Soviet Union and Mao’s China weren’t really communism because they were corrupt and doing it wrong and communism could still work if done perfectly. Maybe systems that are too difficult for average people to reliably execute are not good.

Gentle parenting requires perfect parental emotional regulation, patience, and time. You aren’t ever allowed to raise your voice or get mad. You have zero in the moment strategies for dealing with bad behavior (it’s all about meeting your kids emotional needs so allegedly they won’t act out). And because you can’t be harsh you have to repeat yourself and your boundaries 1000x and physically force little kids to do things when they refuse because you have no other recourse (no yelling, no time out, no punishment, no shaming). It’s EXHAUSTING. Why on earth do we think it’s realistic to expect this won’t just devolve into resentful, permissive parenting for most?

So you dont know what gentle parenting is... thats what you just admitted.

Anonymous wrote:OP chiming in to say thanks for the perspective and keep it coming. I should say that the dealing with dishes is less alarming to me than the repeated request for screen time or to watch. Just another 10 minutes of funny or die. I just can’t imagine lobbying my friends parents like that when I was a kid. I was not nice to my friends all the time, which I regret, but I didn’t push it with parents.

I also forgot to mention all the gun play! I am realizing I’ve let my son get too far into this—I guess bc I never expected him and his friends to pretend to shoot each other execution-style and be so….well, I’m not sure what. Writing this thread is having me rethink some of my own choices.

And yes, I will hide the gum when that kid comes over, and if he wants some, he can ask for it!

My boys and their friends are older, but with the benefit of hindsight, my take is …RELAX. This animal stage will pass. Re screen time, controlling it too much can backfire. Some kids are good at self-regulating if you just give them the chance.

This is good advice; thank you:

One thing I’ve found effective with him and his friends though is to speak their language and use humor. Like I’d say “bruh, we don’t do nerf guns at the table.” If a kid kept whining for screen time I’d probably just tell them I’m sorry they are not having a fun time over here and I’m happy to call their parent if they’d like to get picked up.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This rising 4th grade class is an absolute disaster. They missed fundamental social and behavioral development due to the pandemic and having spent their kindergarten year on computers and 1st grade in masks, at least around here. I’m making no statement about the decisions made at that time but this group of kids is absolutely stunted in their development and their behavior reflect that.

My parents never went to pre-school or kindergarten and yet were raised with firm boundaries. Stop blaming this on lack of socialization.

No, I agree with the PP you replied to. It’s different to not go to preschool or kindergarten but to be getting attention from parents, responsibilities, and to be amidst neighbors and a community every day. That in itself creates socialization and boundaries- socialization isn’t just “having playdates”.

My dad is quite elderly and started school in 1st grade because kindergarten was not yet compulsory. He was fine, but he was also raised on a block with neighbors who were around all day, clear expectations from adults, a parent who took care of him during the day (vs being in another room on a computer), outdoor time, and zero screens.

My rising 4th grader has a bunch of classmates whose parents either were working in another room 10 hours/day while they were left literally and figuratively to their own devices, or classmates whose parents were supposedly present but sitting in a backyard getting drunk by a firepit with their “pod” while the kids interacted with zero outsiders, strangers or authority figures. I hope it will improve over time but as I see them now, these kids are not going to get better- only more disregulated and feral.

Both of my parents grew up on farms. One was an only child. No kids around. My mom had chores and didn’t see either parent for most of the day. She was busy feeding animals and hanging out laundry. But she knew where the boundaries were and was taught to respect her elders. My dad had one older brother who had moved out by the time he started school. Same chores and responsibilities. Parents were always busy doing farm work. Kids don’t need all of this socialization to learn how to behave. They need to be taught how to respect elders and their parents can do that even if they aren’t around them all day. Just having home responsibilities is a good start.

Anonymous wrote:I agree the lack of parenting expectations has led to this but I think the lack of school behavioral expectations/consequences has made it worse. These children are not being socialized to respect adults.

At my daughter's school, they discuss these expected behaviors endlessly. Works great for her, but not sure about the overall efficacy.

Completely disagree with your first sentence. Parenting expectations are higher than they've ever been. Just yesterday, there was a thread saying "why did you even have kids," when a parent suggested that kids can just chill at home on the weekend while their parents run the household. The norm is entertaining your kid all day. That has become "parenting."

Compare the work load of 70s mom to the work load of the mom of today and you see why we have a problem.

I'm at the point where I'm tempted to bring back a sharp slap to eliminate bad behavior in the moment. But I don't do that. Because of parenting expectations.

I agree the lack of parenting expectations has led to this but I think the lack of school behavioral expectations/consequences has made it worse. These children are not being socialized to respect adults.

I have a rising 4th grade boy (and therefore am friends with a lot of moms with 9-10 y/o boys) and we’ve definitely talked about how this seems to be a tough age in that they still really are little boys at heart, but also way overestimate how cool they are and are trying to test boundaries.

Luckily my DS is fairly respectful, follows a chore chart, and is a frequently invited friend because he’s a relatively calm/well behaved kid compared to some of his peers.

But even still he has his moments where he is not the most thoughtful (like just leaving dirty socks lying around) and we’ve had to really nip some attitude about wanting a lot of screen time in the bud.

One thing I’ve found effective with him and his friends though is to speak their language and use humor. Like I’d say “bruh, we don’t do nerf guns at the table.” If a kid kept whining for screen time I’d probably just tell them I’m sorry they are not having a fun time over here and I’m happy to call their parent if they’d like to get picked up. We also have a ton of sports equipment so I can usually convince them to go play outside for a while. The not clearing the table thing doesn’t surprise me and I could see some kids feeling awkward about trying to navigate house rules and where stuff goes. If I want them to help with something I would just ask them directly instead of assuming they know where things go.

The gum thing is the only one that would truly annoy me. Sometimes with a kid like this we have to resort to less frequent play dates or we plan get togethers outside of our home.

I remember boys this age being annoying and disrespectful at times during my childhood though, so I really do think it’s this age group more than anything. Hopefully they get less annoying after puberty hits!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This rising 4th grade class is an absolute disaster. They missed fundamental social and behavioral development due to the pandemic and having spent their kindergarten year on computers and 1st grade in masks, at least around here. I’m making no statement about the decisions made at that time but this group of kids is absolutely stunted in their development and their behavior reflect that.

My parents never went to pre-school or kindergarten and yet were raised with firm boundaries. Stop blaming this on lack of socialization.

No, I agree with the PP you replied to. It’s different to not go to preschool or kindergarten but to be getting attention from parents, responsibilities, and to be amidst neighbors and a community every day. That in itself creates socialization and boundaries- socialization isn’t just “having playdates”.

My dad is quite elderly and started school in 1st grade because kindergarten was not yet compulsory. He was fine, but he was also raised on a block with neighbors who were around all day, clear expectations from adults, a parent who took care of him during the day (vs being in another room on a computer), outdoor time, and zero screens.

My rising 4th grader has a bunch of classmates whose parents either were working in another room 10 hours/day while they were left literally and figuratively to their own devices, or classmates whose parents were supposedly present but sitting in a backyard getting drunk by a firepit with their “pod” while the kids interacted with zero outsiders, strangers or authority figures. I hope it will improve over time but as I see them now, these kids are not going to get better- only more disregulated and feral.

Anonymous wrote:This rising 4th grade class is an absolute disaster. They missed fundamental social and behavioral development due to the pandemic and having spent their kindergarten year on computers and 1st grade in masks, at least around here. I’m making no statement about the decisions made at that time but this group of kids is absolutely stunted in their development and their behavior reflect that.

My parents never went to pre-school or kindergarten and yet were raised with firm boundaries. Stop blaming this on lack of socialization.

This rising 4th grade class is an absolute disaster. They missed fundamental social and behavioral development due to the pandemic and having spent their kindergarten year on computers and 1st grade in masks, at least around here. I’m making no statement about the decisions made at that time but this group of kids is absolutely stunted in their development and their behavior reflect that.

Anonymous wrote:Gentle parenting IS the problem because it’s nearly impossible to do correctly. When are we going to admit this as a society? It’s like all the communism apologists who insist that the Soviet Union and Mao’s China weren’t really communism because they were corrupt and doing it wrong and communism could still work if done perfectly. Maybe systems that are too difficult for average people to reliably execute are not good.

Gentle parenting requires perfect parental emotional regulation, patience, and time. You aren’t ever allowed to raise your voice or get mad. You have zero in the moment strategies for dealing with bad behavior (it’s all about meeting your kids emotional needs so allegedly they won’t act out). And because you can’t be harsh you have to repeat yourself and your boundaries 1000x and physically force little kids to do things when they refuse because you have no other recourse (no yelling, no time out, no punishment, no shaming). It’s EXHAUSTING. Why on earth do we think it’s realistic to expect this won’t just devolve into resentful, permissive parenting for most?

No it doesn’t. Kids are supposed to see their parents make mistakes and lose their patience in gentle parenting. It’s how they learn to cooperate with parents, because they learn that parents aren’t perfect and need their kids’ help to make things happen.

Anonymous wrote:I get it OP. I did a carpool at one point this summer and almost kicked one of the 9 y.o. boys out of my car. He was just that rude, totally entitled. But I was very firm with him and told him directly that he was being rude, it's my car/my rules and he begrudgingly backed down. Quite frankly, I will never invite him to anything again. And his parents are nice people but my blood pressure can't take regularly helping them out with rides. He really pissed me off. On the bright side, I have used him as a stark example of how NOT to be for my kids.

In some ways, I feel bad for that kid. He will go through life acting like a little sh*t and wondering why people don't like him and will miss all sorts of social opportunities because his parents could not consistently teach him basic manners.

This is such an awful patronizing response. I like this kid more than i like you. You don't give examples so perhaps my mind would he changed if he was yelling the f word and throwing your stuff out the window or whatever, but in general your better than thou, but bless your heart i feel bad for you talk is nauseating.

Anonymous wrote:Gentle parenting IS the problem because it’s nearly impossible to do correctly. When are we going to admit this as a society? It’s like all the communism apologists who insist that the Soviet Union and Mao’s China weren’t really communism because they were corrupt and doing it wrong and communism could still work if done perfectly. Maybe systems that are too difficult for average people to reliably execute are not good.

Gentle parenting requires perfect parental emotional regulation, patience, and time. You aren’t ever allowed to raise your voice or get mad. You have zero in the moment strategies for dealing with bad behavior (it’s all about meeting your kids emotional needs so allegedly they won’t act out). And because you can’t be harsh you have to repeat yourself and your boundaries 1000x and physically force little kids to do things when they refuse because you have no other recourse (no yelling, no time out, no punishment, no shaming). It’s EXHAUSTING. Why on earth do we think it’s realistic to expect this won’t just devolve into resentful, permissive parenting for most?

+1 million

The toxic combination of the role of parent evolving into kid concierge and the lack of overall parenting support and community has really hurt kids. As have the screens.

I don't yell at my kids, although I do use consequences including time out, loss of screens etc. You know what? It doesn't work to change their behavior. They still behave badly because they are not afraid of me. I am not scary.

I don't want to be scary. I was raised by two scary parents who had rejected hitting for the most part. But they screamed and shamed, especially my mother. And you know what? I have very little to say to her.

None of my kids are easy. Temperamentally, they are all difficult people. I guess I am too. But my rage was compressed and directed inward for a long time. I continue to work on that.

Gentle parenting IS the problem because it’s nearly impossible to do correctly. When are we going to admit this as a society? It’s like all the communism apologists who insist that the Soviet Union and Mao’s China weren’t really communism because they were corrupt and doing it wrong and communism could still work if done perfectly. Maybe systems that are too difficult for average people to reliably execute are not good.

Gentle parenting requires perfect parental emotional regulation, patience, and time. You aren’t ever allowed to raise your voice or get mad. You have zero in the moment strategies for dealing with bad behavior (it’s all about meeting your kids emotional needs so allegedly they won’t act out). And because you can’t be harsh you have to repeat yourself and your boundaries 1000x and physically force little kids to do things when they refuse because you have no other recourse (no yelling, no time out, no punishment, no shaming). It’s EXHAUSTING. Why on earth do we think it’s realistic to expect this won’t just devolve into resentful, permissive parenting for most?