Anonymous wrote:In my opinion, all the elite universities should admit at least 50% of their students from URM to compensate historical injustices, especially STEM majors. Until 25% of all STEM Nobel prizes go to URMs.

I hate when people put stupid, never gonna happen scenarios into threads where a serious conversation is going on. Let the adults talk and stop,trolling.

Let’s just grade homework and exams by skin color so that everyone gets As all the time. All problems solved.

Anonymous wrote:In most state universities, class rank of applicants mean nothing. Are we seriously going to act as if every valedictorian is even close to the same? There's a reason ivies will accept into the near bottom middle of top prep and magnet schools, but will not touch anyone under the top 5 in most high schools.

Very true….

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Anonymous wrote:Certain schools will undoubtedly bring back standardized testing requirements but plenty of other colleges will remain test optional or test blind.

Dummies need somewhere to go.

Lower ranked schools are fearful of getting enough students so will remain TO.

There will be a chasm. Elite schools aren’t going to let other schools report higher test score averages when they are using only 25% of total accepted to achieve those averages and the elites are using 100% of students.

This. Hopkins is going to sink. You can’t have fewer students TO submitting scores and use it against a 100% test required school. Elites are falling like Dominoes.

The elites have been doing fine. With all this data, no one has shown any significant changes in yield. The TO kids are still smart students, they are graduating fine, and the elite schools are still elite. The only people struggling from TO are admissions departments.

Literally every school that went test optional due to COVID has said the opposite but ok, stay in denial.

+1. and the most recent studies have shown that test optional was a failure, which is shy school after school is droping it

Every study, and yet the only change has been yield rates. The ivies have no graduation crisis currently. Clearly, it is just too much work for the admissions departments to differentiate through applications, so they need another filter. For decades, they've admitted they can hit a randomize button and build a perfectly fine class. It's an overblown admissions problem, not a student one.

What are you even blathering on about?! The UT - Austin study already blew your position sky high, FFS. [b]There was nearly a - 0.75 grade point difference between the enrolled students who had applied TO vs. the ones who had applied with test scores. Persisting with the TO or test blind evangelism at this point is insanity.

Unless TO students are dropping out of T25 colleges en masse ( there are not), both the 3.75 GPA student and 3.0 GPA student will graduate . Graduation rates will still be high.

No one cares about the TO dynamic in the lower ranked schools beyond the T50.

In my opinion, all the elite universities should admit at least 50% of their students from URM to compensate historical injustices, especially STEM majors. Until 25% of all STEM Nobel prizes go to URMs.

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Anonymous wrote:What a shock. Like it or not AOs just can’t identify the kids with the 4.5 GPAs who deserve to be admitted from those that are the beneficiaries of rampant grade inflation.

Colleges are having to do too much in the way of remedial classes which is hurting their 4 and 6 year graduation numbers which impacts their rankings.

What makes matters worse is that today it isn’t that hard to score well on the SAT/ACT. Hopefully moving it online will restore some rigor to testing.

If it wasn’t hard to score well, then I assume more than 1% would score a 1530.

SAT scores have be “normalized” a few times leading to compression of scores at the upper end. Combined with the cottage industry around test prep you now have 75K kids scoring 1500/35 or better on the SAT and ACT. More than enough to fill all the freshman slots at the top 20 ranked schools.

So while test scores help schools by validating whose inflated GPA was earned they are not the discriminator they once were.

Fewer than 3,000 individuals each year achieve a score of 1600 or 36 on their first attempt.

Eliminate super scoring and establish a re-take cap of 1 (perhaps 2 with a documented reason), and that number will barely rise above 8,000 individuals.

They are the real outliers …

In most state universities, class rank of applicants mean nothing. Are we seriously going to act as if every valedictorian is even close to the same? There's a reason ivies will accept into the near bottom middle of top prep and magnet schools, but will not touch anyone under the top 5 in most high schools.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Certain schools will undoubtedly bring back standardized testing requirements but plenty of other colleges will remain test optional or test blind.

Dummies need somewhere to go.

Lower ranked schools are fearful of getting enough students so will remain TO.

There will be a chasm. Elite schools aren’t going to let other schools report higher test score averages when they are using only 25% of total accepted to achieve those averages and the elites are using 100% of students.[b]

This. Hopkins is going to sink. You can’t have fewer students TO submitting scores and use it against a 100% test required school. Elites are falling like Dominoes.

The elites have been doing fine. With all this data, no one has shown any significant changes in yield. The TO kids are still smart students, they are graduating fine, and the elite schools are still elite. The only people struggling from TO are admissions departments.

Literally every school that went test optional due to COVID has said the opposite but ok, stay in denial.

+1. and the most recent studies have shown that test optional was a failure, which is shy school after school is droping it

Every study, and yet the only change has been yield rates. The ivies have no graduation crisis currently. Clearly, it is just too much work for the admissions departments to differentiate through applications, so they need another filter. For decades, they've admitted they can hit a randomize button and build a perfectly fine class. It's an overblown admissions problem, not a student one.

What are you even blathering on about?! The UT - Austin study already blew your position sky high, FFS. There was nearly a - 0.75 grade point difference between the enrolled students who had applied TO vs. the ones who had applied with test scores. Persisting with the TO or test blind evangelism at this point is insanity.

It was actually worse than that:

"Of 9,217 first-year students enrolled in 2023, those who opted in had an estimated average GPA of 0.86 grade points higher during their first fall semester, controlling for a wide range of factors, including high school class rank and GPA. Those same students were estimated to be 55% less likely to have a first semester college GPA of less than 2.0, all else equal."

So, normalizing on everything except test scores, TO kids were close to one full letter grade lower.

That's because UT has a terrible admissions system in general in the name of "fairness." Their top 10% rule means anyone from podunk Texas to the most competitive suburbs qualify for automatic admission and make up 75% of the college. When you have that massive of a range in differentiation between student, of course, test scores matter, because a valedictorian at one school could be bottom of the class at a public magnet. UT also has so few resources to help its students and, like every state institution, has massive classes. They don't have resources to help you when you're lost, so you need to be at the top for engineering or business or cs.

Now, back to the top colleges. Stanford does not have this issue, neither do most of the top colleges going test required. Their applicant pools are filled with highly rigorous, smart top-of-the-line students. They are deciding between Choate's valedictorian and TJ's. This is a much less significant issue for the actual students, but the admissions offices are now clogged with applications.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Certain schools will undoubtedly bring back standardized testing requirements but plenty of other colleges will remain test optional or test blind.

Dummies need somewhere to go.

Lower ranked schools are fearful of getting enough students so will remain TO.

There will be a chasm. Elite schools aren’t going to let other schools report higher test score averages when they are using only 25% of total accepted to achieve those averages and the elites are using 100% of students.[b]

This. Hopkins is going to sink. You can’t have fewer students TO submitting scores and use it against a 100% test required school. Elites are falling like Dominoes.

The elites have been doing fine. With all this data, no one has shown any significant changes in yield. The TO kids are still smart students, they are graduating fine, and the elite schools are still elite. The only people struggling from TO are admissions departments.

Literally every school that went test optional due to COVID has said the opposite but ok, stay in denial.

+1. and the most recent studies have shown that test optional was a failure, which is shy school after school is droping it

Every study, and yet the only change has been yield rates. The ivies have no graduation crisis currently. Clearly, it is just too much work for the admissions departments to differentiate through applications, so they need another filter. For decades, they've admitted they can hit a randomize button and build a perfectly fine class. It's an overblown admissions problem, not a student one.

What are you even blathering on about?! The UT - Austin study already blew your position sky high, FFS. There was nearly a - 0.75 grade point difference between the enrolled students who had applied TO vs. the ones who had applied with test scores. Persisting with the TO or test blind evangelism at this point is insanity.

It was actually worse than that:

"Of 9,217 first-year students enrolled in 2023, those who opted in had an estimated average GPA of 0.86 grade points higher during their first fall semester, controlling for a wide range of factors, including high school class rank and GPA. Those same students were estimated to be 55% less likely to have a first semester college GPA of less than 2.0, all else equal."

So, normalizing on everything except test scores, TO kids were close to one full letter grade lower.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Certain schools will undoubtedly bring back standardized testing requirements but plenty of other colleges will remain test optional or test blind.

Dummies need somewhere to go.

Lower ranked schools are fearful of getting enough students so will remain TO.

There will be a chasm. Elite schools aren’t going to let other schools report higher test score averages when they are using only 25% of total accepted to achieve those averages and the elites are using 100% of students.[b]

This. Hopkins is going to sink. You can’t have fewer students TO submitting scores and use it against a 100% test required school. Elites are falling like Dominoes.

The elites have been doing fine. With all this data, no one has shown any significant changes in yield. The TO kids are still smart students, they are graduating fine, and the elite schools are still elite. The only people struggling from TO are admissions departments.

Literally every school that went test optional due to COVID has said the opposite but ok, stay in denial.

+1. and the most recent studies have shown that test optional was a failure, which is shy school after school is droping it

Every study, and yet the only change has been yield rates. The ivies have no graduation crisis currently. Clearly, it is just too much work for the admissions departments to differentiate through applications, so they need another filter. For decades, they've admitted they can hit a randomize button and build a perfectly fine class. It's an overblown admissions problem, not a student one.

What are you even blathering on about?! The UT - Austin study already blew your position sky high, FFS. There was nearly a - 0.75 grade point difference between the enrolled students who had applied TO vs. the ones who had applied with test scores. Persisting with the TO or test blind evangelism at this point is insanity.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Certain schools will undoubtedly bring back standardized testing requirements but plenty of other colleges will remain test optional or test blind.

Dummies need somewhere to go.

Lower ranked schools are fearful of getting enough students so will remain TO.

There will be a chasm. Elite schools aren’t going to let other schools report higher test score averages when they are using only 25% of total accepted to achieve those averages and the elites are using 100% of students.[b]

This. Hopkins is going to sink. You can’t have fewer students TO submitting scores and use it against a 100% test required school. Elites are falling like Dominoes.

The elites have been doing fine. With all this data, no one has shown any significant changes in yield. The TO kids are still smart students, they are graduating fine, and the elite schools are still elite. The only people struggling from TO are admissions departments.

Literally every school that went test optional due to COVID has said the opposite but ok, stay in denial.

+1. and the most recent studies have shown that test optional was a failure, which is shy school after school is droping it

yep

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Certain schools will undoubtedly bring back standardized testing requirements but plenty of other colleges will remain test optional or test blind.

Dummies need somewhere to go.

Lower ranked schools are fearful of getting enough students so will remain TO.

There will be a chasm. Elite schools aren’t going to let other schools report higher test score averages when they are using only 25% of total accepted to achieve those averages and the elites are using 100% of students.[b]

This. Hopkins is going to sink. You can’t have fewer students TO submitting scores and use it against a 100% test required school. Elites are falling like Dominoes.

The elites have been doing fine. With all this data, no one has shown any significant changes in yield. The TO kids are still smart students, they are graduating fine, and the elite schools are still elite. The only people struggling from TO are admissions departments.

Literally every school that went test optional due to COVID has said the opposite but ok, stay in denial.

+1. and the most recent studies have shown that test optional was a failure, which is shy school after school is droping it

Every study, and yet the only change has been yield rates. The ivies have no graduation crisis currently. Clearly, it is just too much work for the admissions departments to differentiate through applications, so they need another filter. For decades, they've admitted they can hit a randomize button and build a perfectly fine class. It's an overblown admissions problem, not a student one.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Certain schools will undoubtedly bring back standardized testing requirements but plenty of other colleges will remain test optional or test blind.

Dummies need somewhere to go.

Lower ranked schools are fearful of getting enough students so will remain TO.

There will be a chasm. Elite schools aren’t going to let other schools report higher test score averages when they are using only 25% of total accepted to achieve those averages and the elites are using 100% of students.[b]

This. Hopkins is going to sink. You can’t have fewer students TO submitting scores and use it against a 100% test required school. Elites are falling like Dominoes.

The elites have been doing fine. With all this data, no one has shown any significant changes in yield. The TO kids are still smart students, they are graduating fine, and the elite schools are still elite. The only people struggling from TO are admissions departments.

Literally every school that went test optional due to COVID has said the opposite but ok, stay in denial.

+1. and the most recent studies have shown that test optional was a failure, which is shy school after school is droping it

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Certain schools will undoubtedly bring back standardized testing requirements but plenty of other colleges will remain test optional or test blind.

Dummies need somewhere to go.

Lower ranked schools are fearful of getting enough students so will remain TO.

There will be a chasm. Elite schools aren’t going to let other schools report higher test score averages when they are using only 25% of total accepted to achieve those averages and the elites are using 100% of students.[b]

This. Hopkins is going to sink. You can’t have fewer students TO submitting scores and use it against a 100% test required school. Elites are falling like Dominoes.

The elites have been doing fine. With all this data, no one has shown any significant changes in yield. The TO kids are still smart students, they are graduating fine, and the elite schools are still elite. The only people struggling from TO are admissions departments.

Literally every school that went test optional due to COVID has said the opposite but ok, stay in denial.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Certain schools will undoubtedly bring back standardized testing requirements but plenty of other colleges will remain test optional or test blind.

Dummies need somewhere to go.

Lower ranked schools are fearful of getting enough students so will remain TO.

There will be a chasm. Elite schools aren’t going to let other schools report higher test score averages when they are using only 25% of total accepted to achieve those averages and the elites are using 100% of students.[b]

This. Hopkins is going to sink. You can’t have fewer students TO submitting scores and use it against a 100% test required school. Elites are falling like Dominoes.

The elites have been doing fine. With all this data, no one has shown any significant changes in yield. The TO kids are still smart students, they are graduating fine, and the elite schools are still elite. The only people struggling from TO are admissions departments.