Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course I would help an adult with making big life decisions. My college age kid. My spouse. My parent. My sibling.

Making solo decisions on important things is so stupid.

I will help if they ask. Otherwise no. Sometimes people can/prefer to make decisions on their own. Thats not stupid.

Of course.
I would offer my assistance.
if they decline the offer, then that's fine.
They usually can use extra assistance.
Common sense.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience a course catalogue description of a course is cursory, oftentimes only barely describing what they actually do. I took a religious studies course to fulfill a humanities requirement. It was supposed to be a comparative course on the major pillars of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. I don’t think any of those religions were ever even mentioned. Instead it was entirely about tribes like the Yanomami. Same with an English course. It was supposed to be about “classic” American authors, but the reading was by quite obscure ones.

But to the larger point, MYOFB

That's why OP looked at the actually syllabus

How can you look at the syllabus without actually being enrolled in the class? If the point is to see how rigorous the school is or what their curriculum is like before you accept, then your only options are course catalog.

Anonymous wrote:Non-STEM bachelors degrees are essentially just a certificate to white collar jobs. Nothing new here.

That or they teach higher level reasoning and thought. There is a world beyond STEM and we need people who do not think like programmers and engineers for many other types of roles. You may see it as “less than” but that is a deficiency in your world view. Perhaps you should have taken some classes outside of STEM to round out your thought processes.

Anonymous wrote:Yes, when choosing a school + major field.

It's a big expensive decision you make.
Don't you need to look at what you are buying??

Many people spend more time and efforts choosing a pair of sneakers.

Yes, quite frankly shocked that most people don’t do this level of due diligence. But then again a college degree is becoming equivalent to what a high school education was in the past.

Sad. No wonder the protesters need spokesman to articulate the cause. No one has strong oral or written communication skills beyond the quick sound bite.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a professor and have served as a program director, department chair, and on several curriculum committees. I also have a first-year student in college (not mine).

Parents, do NOT do this. If you are worried about your child maximizing their college experience, encourage them to speak to their professors, the department chair, their academic advisors, and older students in their major. When they have the opportunity to choose electives, they should aim for a balance of fulfilling requirements for their intended major and also should take a class outside of their major from a professor who has a reputation for being an excellent teacher (use word of mouth for this, NOT ratemyprofessor).
As a parent, you really likely have little understanding of why the major is structured the way it is. There are factors that you likely have not considered (such as availability of certain faculty, accreditation concerns, budgeting issues, class sizes, etc.) that affect curriculum.
As for hiring or graduate school, in many cases a student's recommendation from professors, internships, and GPA are important. For many jobs, content is learned on site, not in a classroom. Employers are looking for trainability and skills that can't be taught easily at work, like the ability to write well.

The question is regarding students who haven't committed yet. I agree having prospective students (try to) talk to their department chairs is a good idea - if the chair is willing to talk to a non-student, they'll likely be willing to talk to a current student.

But what exactly is OP suggesting that you're saying is bad? Even if availability of certain faculty, budgeting issues, or class sizes are the reasons why a program is less rigorous than others, that doesn't change the fact that the program is less rigorous than others.
"Employers are looking for trainability and skills that can't be taught easily at work, like the ability to write well" - all the more reason to make sure your child goes somewhere where they will learn to write well, even if they "only" take the minimum writing required by the school. This will require investigating the colleges requirements and the expectations of the required courses they will be taking. Frankly, it's unrealistic to expect every student to do this - and it's the students who are the least likely to do this to whom parents are and should hold the most concern for.

It's hard to say what's "rigorous" from the outside. For some people, looking at a syllabus and seeing only a few texts might seem less rigorous than a syllabus with a ton of readings; but so much depends on what the professor does in that class, how difficult the readings are, how class discussions are conducted, how writing is graded and taught.
It's also impossible to tell from the outside how well writing is taught. Unless your child is attending a SLAC where students must take small seminars and write papers constantly no matter what the major, your child could easily get through college with writing only a handful of short papers, especially if majoring in STEM subjects - you wouldn't know this from reading a course catalog unless you sincerely believe that fulfilling one "writing intensive" course in order to graduate will guarantee a solid writer at the end of college. But, que the large state school boosters, every university is going to boast that students learn how to write if you read their curricular requirements.
Your best bet is to look at job and grad school placement trends. If a school has a long track record of excellent employment and a long track record of rate of admissions into graduate programs, that is going to be much more telling than the opinion of a random parent who has not stepped foot in a college classroom for over two decades.

Anonymous wrote:Yes, when choosing a school + major field.

It's a big expensive decision you make.
Don't you need to look at what you are buying??

Many people spend more time and efforts choosing a pair of sneakers.

Same. There can be a lot of variation across schools for ostensibly the same major.

I did. That’s why kid is attending the school he chose. The department has a lot of resources. The rigor impressed me more than the filler classes that the selective privates bragged about.

Standards have fallen but that’s everywhere. Even Ivies. Look at what’s happening now at those schools. That’s just the tip of the iceberg.

Yes, when choosing a school + major field.

It's a big expensive decision you make.
Don't you need to look at what you are buying??

Many people spend more time and efforts choosing a pair of sneakers.

Non-STEM bachelors degrees are essentially just a certificate to white collar jobs. Nothing new here.

Anonymous wrote:I'm a professor and have served as a program director, department chair, and on several curriculum committees. I also have a first-year student in college (not mine).

Parents, do NOT do this. If you are worried about your child maximizing their college experience, encourage them to speak to their professors, the department chair, their academic advisors, and older students in their major. When they have the opportunity to choose electives, they should aim for a balance of fulfilling requirements for their intended major and also should take a class outside of their major from a professor who has a reputation for being an excellent teacher (use word of mouth for this, NOT ratemyprofessor).
As a parent, you really likely have little understanding of why the major is structured the way it is. There are factors that you likely have not considered (such as availability of certain faculty, accreditation concerns, budgeting issues, class sizes, etc.) that affect curriculum.
As for hiring or graduate school, in many cases a student's recommendation from professors, internships, and GPA are important. For many jobs, content is learned on site, not in a classroom. Employers are looking for trainability and skills that can't be taught easily at work, like the ability to write well.

The question is regarding students who haven't committed yet. I agree having prospective students (try to) talk to their department chairs is a good idea - if the chair is willing to talk to a non-student, they'll likely be willing to talk to a current student.

But what exactly is OP suggesting that you're saying is bad? Even if availability of certain faculty, budgeting issues, or class sizes are the reasons why a program is less rigorous than others, that doesn't change the fact that the program is less rigorous than others.
"Employers are looking for trainability and skills that can't be taught easily at work, like the ability to write well" - all the more reason to make sure your child goes somewhere where they will learn to write well, even if they "only" take the minimum writing required by the school. This will require investigating the colleges requirements and the expectations of the required courses they will be taking. Frankly, it's unrealistic to expect every student to do this - and it's the students who are the least likely to do this to whom parents are and should hold the most concern for.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you have any idea about the academic rigor of your DC's program of study, and do you even care if it's rigorous and makes them a stronger thinker?

My nephew is "killing it" according to BIL at his run of the mill state school. BIL brags about how the kid is getting As. I took a look at the list of courses he's taking and he has shown me the syllabus for a class that relates to my field. I can't believe how little this college expects of its students. They basically just collect tuition for four years, stamp their diploma, and send them out into the world without bothering to make them learn how to write or think critically. I'm sure the kids who major in job oriented things like nursing or structural engineering have to actually learn something, but my nephew is not being served well by his college IMHO.

I remember reading something about a study showing that most college kids didn't increase their intellectual skills much from freshman to senior year. I thought this had to be a poorly done study, but now I can see how this is possible.

1. No parents do not look at the curriculum your student should. They are adults not babies.
2. Religious college curriculums are worse than state schools. Ie places like https://www.onlinechristiancolleges.com/best/https://www.onlinechristiancolleges.com/best/conservative-universities/ all worthless.
3. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a state school and yes your nephew is learning something.
4. MYOB you are really stupid.

Hillsdale has a level of access to conservative/republican politics that no university can claim to have for liberal/democratic politics. For a future republican, it's a top place to network with like-minded individuals.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you have any idea about the academic rigor of your DC's program of study, and do you even care if it's rigorous and makes them a stronger thinker?

My nephew is "killing it" according to BIL at his run of the mill state school. BIL brags about how the kid is getting As. I took a look at the list of courses he's taking and he has shown me the syllabus for a class that relates to my field. I can't believe how little this college expects of its students. They basically just collect tuition for four years, stamp their diploma, and send them out into the world without bothering to make them learn how to write or think critically. I'm sure the kids who major in job oriented things like nursing or structural engineering have to actually learn something, but my nephew is not being served well by his college IMHO.

I remember reading something about a study showing that most college kids didn't increase their intellectual skills much from freshman to senior year. I thought this had to be a poorly done study, but now I can see how this is possible.

Lots of schools are like this. Unless your kid is at a top school you should look into it. Mine are in schools that challenge them and increase their intellectual capacity every single semester. The classes require a lot of reading, 10-12p papers, difficult problem sets and problem based long-answer tests where 1/3-1/2 requires creative analysis and applications of knowledge. Prior to applications, I did compare syllabi and talked to professor friends about how much or little they have to dumb down content at their respective schools. They gave great insight on what schools provide an intellectual education. Both thought William&Mary is the best public school in VA, UVA second, because there is no way to coast through W&Mary and UVa and especially VT have a large % of phone-it-in classes in certain majors.

Assuming you have a motivated child, it makes more sense to compare the ceilings rather than the floors.

Anonymous wrote:In my experience a course catalogue description of a course is cursory, oftentimes only barely describing what they actually do. I took a religious studies course to fulfill a humanities requirement. It was supposed to be a comparative course on the major pillars of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. I don’t think any of those religions were ever even mentioned. Instead it was entirely about tribes like the Yanomami. Same with an English course. It was supposed to be about “classic” American authors, but the reading was by quite obscure ones.

But to the larger point, MYOFB

That's why OP looked at the actually syllabus

I feel like you've posted before about your nephew in the run of the mill state school. I think you need to let this weird obsession go. Not everyone needs "rigor", and if he is a kinesiology major (assuming that's what you meant by an athlete's major) he will likely be in high demand when he graduates.

No I did not review course catalogs for my college kids. One did run his proposed course registration by us, the other did not. They are both very successful working adults.

Anonymous wrote:Of course I would help an adult with making big life decisions. My college age kid. My spouse. My parent. My sibling.

Making solo decisions on important things is so stupid.

I will help if they ask. Otherwise no. Sometimes people can/prefer to make decisions on their own. Thats not stupid.