Anonymous wrote:These are such different schools culturally, and my DC is trying to get a handle on that. But does anyone have info on pre-law type study at either place?

I personally think that W&M would be a better fit for my DC, culturally (smaller school, smaller classes, etc) but DC is leaning toward UMD. I'll stop nudging, though, if I find out that W&M would be weaker for later law school applications. (Current interest, though that could change.)

Thoughts?

If your kid gets in, I would do W&M. The small SLAC style class size means more attention to writing, which is important to law school. Also, W&M Law School is more highly ranked at 36 (Yes, W&M Law likes its own undergrad students) whereas UMD (Carey, Baltimore) is only 55. YOu should also throw in UVA into the mix because it's law school is tied for no. 4.

The answer to this question is simple and I can't believe people are making it hard. If the grades and major are equivalent from these two schools, then there will be no difference in outcome for applications to out of state law schools. Your student should go to the school where they will do best or that is cheaper or any other metric other than which one is best for law school.

There are many paths to law school and elite law schools, including through community college. Some paths are better or easier than others, but grades, LSAT and experience are going to do 95% of the heavy lifting.

I'm willing to bet that a community college / state directional school graduate will fare better with law school admissions at all of the law schools than an Amherst graduate if they have similar grades, major and LSAT scores.

There is no secret sauce being added in college to get one admitted to law school. The reason that elite colleges matriculate more students to T14 law schools is that the best students go to those schools to begin with.

If all of the best students decided to go to Old Dominion University instead of Harvard for undergrad, then ODU would start placing the most graduates in the top law schools.

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Anonymous wrote:W&M has a much stronger law school, however, which benefits its pre-law advising and a high Bar passage rate

Isn't UMD ranked a lot higher.

No??

Yes.

7 places is not a *LOT* and besides that the new rankings are pretty much meaningless and UMD has never been ranked higher than W&M in the history of USNews. Unless you think a school's diversity measures make it stronger at pre-law advising it's absolutely meaningless. Look at UG teaching rankings instead - W&M is #6, UMD is unranked.

UMD ranks higher than W&M

UMD was always ranked below W&M in USNWR before last year. Does that mean UMD was always worse than W&M but suddenly became better last year?

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Anonymous wrote:Save your money for law school and go to whichever of these is in-state.

While think W&M is the stronger option of the two, this is very sound advice.

+1 W&M OOS is exorbitant. Really not worth it. UMD a little better. But with two good options, silly not to go in-state.

Better in terms of OOS tuition. We don’t know which option is instate for OP.

UMD is better at what?

Most anything useful: math, cs, economics, physics, criminology, even business.

W&M graduates have higher earnings in finance, management consulting, technology, law, and marketing.

Nonsense. And UMD does not have a law school. UMB does.

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Anonymous wrote:W&M has a much stronger law school, however, which benefits its pre-law advising and a high Bar passage rate

Isn't UMD ranked a lot higher.

No??

Yes.

7 places is not a *LOT* and besides that the new rankings are pretty much meaningless and UMD has never been ranked higher than W&M in the history of USNews. Unless you think a school's diversity measures make it stronger at pre-law advising it's absolutely meaningless. Look at UG teaching rankings instead - W&M is #6, UMD is unranked.

UMD ranks higher than W&M

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Anonymous wrote:W&M has a much stronger law school, however, which benefits its pre-law advising and a high Bar passage rate

There is no need for “pre-law advising” and I can’t imagine how anything in undergrad could possibly relate to bar passage rates.

You don't have a clue what you are talking about so I'd shut up. A good college pre-law advisor can make all the difference in the world. I work in law school admissions and can tell you this from daily experience. UMD has one of the top programs in the country and it absolutely makes a difference.

What do pre-law advisors do that's so helpful?

My (ivy) didn't have pre-law advisors and I didn't think I was going to law school until the very end, so I wouldn't have used them even if they had existed. It didn't make any difference.

This. A “pre-law” advisor has an inherent bias for such positions but no real clue or role these days. Great grades, great LSAT scores and a basic notion of where you want to practice is all it takes.

You don't need this at all.

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Anonymous wrote:Save your money for law school and go to whichever of these is in-state.

+1 This is the correct answer.

Or better yet, skip law school altogether. DH is a lawyer, we know tons of lawyers, and none of them would advise their child to follow suit. Not one.

Why not?

DP, but I'm a lawyer and am advising my kids not to do it unless they will be litigators like I am. Lots of law firms are really investing in AI and the need for attorneys to draft anything, legal research, review contracts, etc. is all going to disappear in a few years. There won't be any reason for firms to hire associates to do the work that AI can do faster, cheaper, and with no errors. The AI isn't there yet, but given the advancements that are happening at a pretty fast pace, the only safe practice areas in 5+ years will those that have an in-person element.

I have been practicing for over 30 years and the prior poster is correct.

The labor trends are not moving in a positive direction yet tuition is still very high.

I think academic rigor in undergrad is what counts. I endured a difficult honors program at a very top ranked school and found law school very manageable. Finished second in the class and frankly didn’t put that much effort into it. The so-called pressure and competition didn’t bother me, and my college experience made that possible. Any reasonable college can provide the challenge; a student has to chase it and embrace it, though.

Meh. I went to an open-admissions school totally lacking in academic rigor. I found law school to be very easy, and graduated top 10% in a large class at a T1 school without much effort at all. I think law school is easy for those of us who naturally "think like a lawyer." I scored 99th percentile on the LSAT; I was just already analytical. Peers of mine who attended very rigorous colleges struggled (and my bff who had already done undergrad and a Phd at Stanford, who is significantly smarter than I am, failed the bar while I passed with no sweat at all).

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Anonymous wrote:Save your money for law school and go to whichever of these is in-state.

+1 This is the correct answer.

Or better yet, skip law school altogether. DH is a lawyer, we know tons of lawyers, and none of them would advise their child to follow suit. Not one.

Why not?

DP, but I'm a lawyer and am advising my kids not to do it unless they will be litigators like I am. Lots of law firms are really investing in AI and the need for attorneys to draft anything, legal research, review contracts, etc. is all going to disappear in a few years. There won't be any reason for firms to hire associates to do the work that AI can do faster, cheaper, and with no errors. The AI isn't there yet, but given the advancements that are happening at a pretty fast pace, the only safe practice areas in 5+ years will those that have an in-person element.

Hmmm. I'm a litigator and would advise folks "not to do it unless they will" not be a litigator.

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Anonymous wrote:W&M has a much stronger law school, however, which benefits its pre-law advising and a high Bar passage rate

There is no need for “pre-law advising” and I can’t imagine how anything in undergrad could possibly relate to bar passage rates.

+1

Here is my "pre-law advising" -- take a class in which you learn logic (this will almost always be a phil class), it helps with the LSAT and beyond to law school. Take an LSAT prep course (if only to get super familiar with the format). That's it.

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Anonymous wrote:Save your money for law school and go to whichever of these is in-state.

While think W&M is the stronger option of the two, this is very sound advice.

+1 W&M OOS is exorbitant. Really not worth it. UMD a little better. But with two good options, silly not to go in-state.

Better in terms of OOS tuition. We don’t know which option is instate for OP.

UMD is better at what?

Most anything useful: math, cs, economics, physics, criminology, even business.

W&M graduates have higher earnings in finance, management consulting, technology, law, and marketing.

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Anonymous wrote:W&M has a much stronger law school, however, which benefits its pre-law advising and a high Bar passage rate

Isn't UMD ranked a lot higher.

No??

Yes.

7 places is not a *LOT* and besides that the new rankings are pretty much meaningless and UMD has never been ranked higher than W&M in the history of USNews. Unless you think a school's diversity measures make it stronger at pre-law advising it's absolutely meaningless. Look at UG teaching rankings instead - W&M is #6, UMD is unranked.

Anonymous wrote:When I attended, there was a pretty high percentage of W&M undergrads at W&M law school, despite no formal guaranteed admission

I went to law school there and I agree that there were a lot of william and mary grads in our class.

I'm not sure if the undergrads do it, but william and Mary law school is so low key and accessible/open that it would be very easy for an undergrad to show up at the law school for guest lectures or to stop in on a class. I don't think it would affect admissions to the law school, but it might help your child decide if law school is the right fit. I went to an Ivy for undergrad and would not have even imagined wandering into the law school as an undergrad for anything. But william and mart is just much friendlier and open. A nice place to be.

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Anonymous wrote:W&M has a much stronger law school, however, which benefits its pre-law advising and a high Bar passage rate

There is no need for “pre-law advising” and I can’t imagine how anything in undergrad could possibly relate to bar passage rates.

You don't have a clue what you are talking about so I'd shut up. A good college pre-law advisor can make all the difference in the world. I work in law school admissions and can tell you this from daily experience. UMD has one of the top programs in the country and it absolutely makes a difference.

What do pre-law advisors do that's so helpful?

My (ivy) didn't have pre-law advisors and I didn't think I was going to law school until the very end, so I wouldn't have used them even if they had existed. It didn't make any difference.

+1. No idea if my college had pre-law advising because I didn't decide to go to law school until long after I had graduated. The admissions process was fairly straightforward even back then.

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Anonymous wrote:W&M has a much stronger law school, however, which benefits its pre-law advising and a high Bar passage rate

Isn't UMD ranked a lot higher.

No??

Yes.

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M has a much stronger law school, however, which benefits its pre-law advising and a high Bar passage rate

There is no need for “pre-law advising” and I can’t imagine how anything in undergrad could possibly relate to bar passage rates.

You don't have a clue what you are talking about so I'd shut up. A good college pre-law advisor can make all the difference in the world. I work in law school admissions and can tell you this from daily experience. UMD has one of the top programs in the country and it absolutely makes a difference.

I have a feeling you are the same law school admissions know-it-all who was posting in the other law school thread. I sincerely hope you don’t work directly with students. Your attitude and arrogance reflect poorly on you—lucky for you this is anonymous.

I posted in the other thread (not this one) and work directly with law school applicants but not in law school admissions, so we are two completely different people.