Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like CTCL always brings out the snobs.

I know kids who have gone to Ursinus and McDaniel. McD actively promotes their programs for kids with learning differences, and the kids I know who have gone there seemed very happy. I have a harder time characterizing Ursinus, but I do hear good things.

It's funny how few East Coast schools are on the list.

Maybe those who you label as snobs just have different standards and goals.

Several of the CTCL are on the brink of financial disaster.

Job placement and recruiting is not good at most of these small colleges.

Retention rates and 6 year graduation rates at many of the CTCL schools are not good.

Students can get a good education at most schools if motivated and disciplined, but the more important issue is job placement & internship opportunities.

I do not understand the focus on PhD placement for small college students as most humanities PhD struggle to find decent jobs.

CTCL is little more than a marketing organization for small relatively unknown schools most of which face significant financial hurdles.

What makes you think that all these students are pursuing humanities PhDs? Kalamazoo and Wooster are known for STEM grad placements.

A huge percentage of these schools major in humanities and go on to PhDs. Those circles must overlap. Even STEM PhDs aren't that much to brag about though? Like if you can get a good job with your bachelor's alone, isn't that the best case?

DP: Even at LACs with excellent PhD placements, the majority of students go on to get jobs post BA. Both Kalamazoo and Wooster for instance rank well with Forbes for instance for post-graduation outcomes/ ROI.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to Kalamazoo and enjoyed my experience. When I look at the alumni magazine, it still seems to draw lots of kids who want to make a positive impact, even in majors like Biology and Business. But I would look at the finances of whatever school you choose, there’s a wide variation about how secure they are. For instance, Denison on one end, and Antioch on another.

OP: I agree, much as I appreciate Antioch's history.

I also think we can all safely disregard the poster who doesn't know what Phds are for.

A lot of small colleges also have fanatically loyal alumni. Sweet Briar was saved by theirs, and I knew a few colleges on both lists have received giant donations and have strong endowments.

I was the poster who mentioned SBC as part of a consortium with 2 other schools, including Lynchburg, which IS a CTCL school. The other 2 in the consortium are not.

We considered SBC, but it does not have one of the two majors my child wanted. I do think my child will do best at a small college, though.

I think that Randolph may wind up being her pick in the end for the Take2 curriculum model. Plus it feels like a boarding school, which would be a nice change from her HS with close to 3k students. She might wind up taking a class or two at SBC, which does have a very lovely campus (we did a quick drive through it on our first visit to Randolph in the summer).

Which highlights that the list and the CTCL organization are useful in highlighting the value of the small college experience but also only useful as a starting point. I don't think even the original writer thought these were the ONLY small colleges worth looking at. Just a place to start. Which is pretty obvious if you actually read the first part of the book. And, as others have said, there has been a lot of change over time so you need to do your own research.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not a snob when it comes to CTCL schools, but I’m not going to glorify them or view them as somehow unique, different, and - most of all - better than any of the other hundreds of no-name second tier private schools that are out there. Forced to discount their tuitions to attract mediocre students who wouldn’t have a chance at top schools, low graduation rates, etc. How on earth are they “changing lives” any more than second tier state schools or, for that matter, community colleges? THOSE are the school changing lives - they’re educating the masses, immigrants, students of color, etc. CTCL schools are just refuge for wealthy underachieving students whose parents don’t want them mixing with kids at the schools they really ARE making a difference.

Why so angry at CTCLs? Don't you have anything better to do than spend your time following a topic that apparently has no relevance to your life, as you've made it abundantly clear you would never send you kids to one? Go away, please.

THE OP SPECIFICALLY ASKED which CTCL schools folks HATED. My response was directly in line with that. She didn’t start this thread merely to open up a lovefest.

Trigger much? That individual wasn't responding to the OP, but to a PP crapping on LACs. The response was appropriate.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Juniata — Visited for Eagle for a Day and another day-long group program

Loved the environmental program, research station, and job placement.

Museum and strong campus museum opportunities are a nice touch. Our tour guide was enthusiastic about clay and we said yes to a tour of the ceramics studio. Lovely experience.


Kalamazoo College—

This offers walking distance to a thriving smaller city with things to do. While the campus is small, the city makes it feel larger. Nice gym. Like their four-year project requirement.
Diverse.


Received good merit at both schools that brought it below in state. In the end, student wanted a big school.

Our family decided I should have attended Juniata.😂 I’d have enjoyed a smaller school but I didn’t know about them way back.

LOL parent of a Juniata kid here. I think the same. I got some mailings from LACs back in my day but couldn't wrap my head around the idea of a college smaller than my high school and my parents (who didn't go to college) never took me to tour one. But, I did choose a smaller public U that was really undergraduate-focused vs. the big name state flagship so I did have a sense of that undergrad experience really mattering.

One of my parents dropped out of college and the other went to a service academy so neither was any help to me, unfortunately.

I ended up at the Big State. It was okay but I could have benefitted from counseling around my choice of major and so on.

It’s amazing to see how just having the internet opens up info like different majors and what professions those lead to and so on.

Oh, I also did not visit any college campuses as a kid. I was surprised when my high schooler wanted to visit campuses. 😂 I “visited” my college campus at orientation.

At least I could do better for my own kid. 😄

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like CTCL always brings out the snobs.

I know kids who have gone to Ursinus and McDaniel. McD actively promotes their programs for kids with learning differences, and the kids I know who have gone there seemed very happy. I have a harder time characterizing Ursinus, but I do hear good things.

It's funny how few East Coast schools are on the list.

Maybe those who you label as snobs just have different standards and goals.

Several of the CTCL are on the brink of financial disaster.

Job placement and recruiting is not good at most of these small colleges.

Retention rates and 6 year graduation rates at many of the CTCL schools are not good.

Students can get a good education at most schools if motivated and disciplined, but the more important issue is job placement & internship opportunities.

I do not understand the focus on PhD placement for small college students as most humanities PhD struggle to find decent jobs.

CTCL is little more than a marketing organization for small relatively unknown schools most of which face significant financial hurdles.

What makes you think that all these students are pursuing humanities PhDs? Kalamazoo and Wooster are known for STEM grad placements.

A huge percentage of these schools major in humanities and go on to PhDs. Those circles must overlap. Even STEM PhDs aren't that much to brag about though? Like if you can get a good job with your bachelor's alone, isn't that the best case?

Do you have cites for that? You don't seem to be necessarily. acquainted with LAC life and majors these days.

Also, most STEM folks pursue grad studies as they are interested in research. That may not seem relevant to you, but all facets of your life are shaped by it, from energy to food to health.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to Kalamazoo and enjoyed my experience. When I look at the alumni magazine, it still seems to draw lots of kids who want to make a positive impact, even in majors like Biology and Business. But I would look at the finances of whatever school you choose, there’s a wide variation about how secure they are. For instance, Denison on one end, and Antioch on another.

OP: I agree, much as I appreciate Antioch's history.

I also think we can all safely disregard the poster who doesn't know what Phds are for.

A lot of small colleges also have fanatically loyal alumni. Sweet Briar was saved by theirs, and I knew a few colleges on both lists have received giant donations and have strong endowments.

I was the poster who mentioned SBC as part of a consortium with 2 other schools, including Lynchburg, which IS a CTCL school. The other 2 in the consortium are not.

We considered SBC, but it does not have one of the two majors my child wanted. I do think my child will do best at a small college, though.

I think that Randolph may wind up being her pick in the end for the Take2 curriculum model. Plus it feels like a boarding school, which would be a nice change from her HS with close to 3k students. She might wind up taking a class or two at SBC, which does have a very lovely campus (we did a quick drive through it on our first visit to Randolph in the summer).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not a snob when it comes to CTCL schools, but I’m not going to glorify them or view them as somehow unique, different, and - most of all - better than any of the other hundreds of no-name second tier private schools that are out there. Forced to discount their tuitions to attract mediocre students who wouldn’t have a chance at top schools, low graduation rates, etc. How on earth are they “changing lives” any more than second tier state schools or, for that matter, community colleges? THOSE are the school changing lives - they’re educating the masses, immigrants, students of color, etc. CTCL schools are just refuge for wealthy underachieving students whose parents don’t want them mixing with kids at the schools they really ARE making a difference.

Why so angry at CTCLs? Don't you have anything better to do than spend your time following a topic that apparently has no relevance to your life, as you've made it abundantly clear you would never send you kids to one? Go away, please.

THE OP SPECIFICALLY ASKED which CTCL schools folks HATED. My response was directly in line with that. She didn’t start this thread merely to open up a lovefest.

Actually, OP asked, "Which ones do you like? Hate? Have never heard of?"

You didn't answer any part of the questions.

I said I hated them all, and I gave solid reasons for my view.

Your reasons might be more solid if you understood what graduate school is for and what professors do.

Again, I am not the PhD poster. You are confusing me with someone else.

Oh, are you the Marxist poster? You think they're too elite?

It's a valid opinion. Honestly when I attended one, I agreed with you. But I'm not sure all these people obsessed with national University rankings are less elitist. In fact in many ways they're worse: they don't care about nurturing talent or developing it, or curiosity.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not a snob when it comes to CTCL schools, but I’m not going to glorify them or view them as somehow unique, different, and - most of all - better than any of the other hundreds of no-name second tier private schools that are out there. Forced to discount their tuitions to attract mediocre students who wouldn’t have a chance at top schools, low graduation rates, etc. How on earth are they “changing lives” any more than second tier state schools or, for that matter, community colleges? THOSE are the school changing lives - they’re educating the masses, immigrants, students of color, etc. CTCL schools are just refuge for wealthy underachieving students whose parents don’t want them mixing with kids at the schools they really ARE making a difference.

Why so angry at CTCLs? Don't you have anything better to do than spend your time following a topic that apparently has no relevance to your life, as you've made it abundantly clear you would never send you kids to one? Go away, please.

THE OP SPECIFICALLY ASKED which CTCL schools folks HATED. My response was directly in line with that. She didn’t start this thread merely to open up a lovefest.

Actually, OP asked, "Which ones do you like? Hate? Have never heard of?"

You didn't answer any part of the questions.

I said I hated them all, and I gave solid reasons for my view.

Your reasons might be more solid if you understood what graduate school is for and what professors do.

Again, I am not the PhD poster. You are confusing me with someone else.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not a snob when it comes to CTCL schools, but I’m not going to glorify them or view them as somehow unique, different, and - most of all - better than any of the other hundreds of no-name second tier private schools that are out there. Forced to discount their tuitions to attract mediocre students who wouldn’t have a chance at top schools, low graduation rates, etc. How on earth are they “changing lives” any more than second tier state schools or, for that matter, community colleges? THOSE are the school changing lives - they’re educating the masses, immigrants, students of color, etc. CTCL schools are just refuge for wealthy underachieving students whose parents don’t want them mixing with kids at the schools they really ARE making a difference.

Why so angry at CTCLs? Don't you have anything better to do than spend your time following a topic that apparently has no relevance to your life, as you've made it abundantly clear you would never send you kids to one? Go away, please.

THE OP SPECIFICALLY ASKED which CTCL schools folks HATED. My response was directly in line with that. She didn’t start this thread merely to open up a lovefest.

Actually, OP asked, "Which ones do you like? Hate? Have never heard of?"

You didn't answer any part of the questions.

I said I hated them all, and I gave solid reasons for my view.

Your reasons might be more solid if you understood what graduate school is for and what professors do.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not a snob when it comes to CTCL schools, but I’m not going to glorify them or view them as somehow unique, different, and - most of all - better than any of the other hundreds of no-name second tier private schools that are out there. Forced to discount their tuitions to attract mediocre students who wouldn’t have a chance at top schools, low graduation rates, etc. How on earth are they “changing lives” any more than second tier state schools or, for that matter, community colleges? THOSE are the school changing lives - they’re educating the masses, immigrants, students of color, etc. CTCL schools are just refuge for wealthy underachieving students whose parents don’t want them mixing with kids at the schools they really ARE making a difference.

Why so angry at CTCLs? Don't you have anything better to do than spend your time following a topic that apparently has no relevance to your life, as you've made it abundantly clear you would never send you kids to one? Go away, please.

THE OP SPECIFICALLY ASKED which CTCL schools folks HATED. My response was directly in line with that. She didn’t start this thread merely to open up a lovefest.

I asked which ones people loved, hated, had heard of, had opinions about, etc. Specific opinions or experiences was what I meant, which everyone else hear seems to have understood.

I didn't want more posts from the dude who hates the liberal arts and doesn't understand what phds (even science ones! How can he hate science ones?) are for.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not a snob when it comes to CTCL schools, but I’m not going to glorify them or view them as somehow unique, different, and - most of all - better than any of the other hundreds of no-name second tier private schools that are out there. Forced to discount their tuitions to attract mediocre students who wouldn’t have a chance at top schools, low graduation rates, etc. How on earth are they “changing lives” any more than second tier state schools or, for that matter, community colleges? THOSE are the school changing lives - they’re educating the masses, immigrants, students of color, etc. CTCL schools are just refuge for wealthy underachieving students whose parents don’t want them mixing with kids at the schools they really ARE making a difference.

Why so angry at CTCLs? Don't you have anything better to do than spend your time following a topic that apparently has no relevance to your life, as you've made it abundantly clear you would never send you kids to one? Go away, please.

THE OP SPECIFICALLY ASKED which CTCL schools folks HATED. My response was directly in line with that. She didn’t start this thread merely to open up a lovefest.

Actually, OP asked, "Which ones do you like? Hate? Have never heard of?"

You didn't answer any part of the questions.

Anonymous wrote:Juniata — Visited for Eagle for a Day and another day-long group program

Loved the environmental program, research station, and job placement.

Museum and strong campus museum opportunities are a nice touch. Our tour guide was enthusiastic about clay and we said yes to a tour of the ceramics studio. Lovely experience.


Kalamazoo College—

This offers walking distance to a thriving smaller city with things to do. While the campus is small, the city makes it feel larger. Nice gym. Like their four-year project requirement.
Diverse.


Received good merit at both schools that brought it below in state. In the end, student wanted a big school.

Our family decided I should have attended Juniata.😂 I’d have enjoyed a smaller school but I didn’t know about them way back.

LOL parent of a Juniata kid here. I think the same. I got some mailings from LACs back in my day but couldn't wrap my head around the idea of a college smaller than my high school and my parents (who didn't go to college) never took me to tour one. But, I did choose a smaller public U that was really undergraduate-focused vs. the big name state flagship so I did have a sense of that undergrad experience really mattering.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not a snob when it comes to CTCL schools, but I’m not going to glorify them or view them as somehow unique, different, and - most of all - better than any of the other hundreds of no-name second tier private schools that are out there. Forced to discount their tuitions to attract mediocre students who wouldn’t have a chance at top schools, low graduation rates, etc. How on earth are they “changing lives” any more than second tier state schools or, for that matter, community colleges? THOSE are the school changing lives - they’re educating the masses, immigrants, students of color, etc. CTCL schools are just refuge for wealthy underachieving students whose parents don’t want them mixing with kids at the schools they really ARE making a difference.

Why so angry at CTCLs? Don't you have anything better to do than spend your time following a topic that apparently has no relevance to your life, as you've made it abundantly clear you would never send you kids to one? Go away, please.

THE OP SPECIFICALLY ASKED which CTCL schools folks HATED. My response was directly in line with that. She didn’t start this thread merely to open up a lovefest.

Juniata — Visited for Eagle for a Day and another day-long group program

Loved the environmental program, research station, and job placement.

Museum and strong campus museum opportunities are a nice touch. Our tour guide was enthusiastic about clay and we said yes to a tour of the ceramics studio. Lovely experience.


Kalamazoo College—

This offers walking distance to a thriving smaller city with things to do. While the campus is small, the city makes it feel larger. Nice gym. Like their four-year project requirement.
Diverse.


Received good merit at both schools that brought it below in state. In the end, student wanted a big school.

Our family decided I should have attended Juniata.😂 I’d have enjoyed a smaller school but I didn’t know about them way back.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like CTCL always brings out the snobs.

I know kids who have gone to Ursinus and McDaniel. McD actively promotes their programs for kids with learning differences, and the kids I know who have gone there seemed very happy. I have a harder time characterizing Ursinus, but I do hear good things.

It's funny how few East Coast schools are on the list.

Maybe those who you label as snobs just have different standards and goals.

Several of the CTCL are on the brink of financial disaster.

Job placement and recruiting is not good at most of these small colleges.

Retention rates and 6 year graduation rates at many of the CTCL schools are not good.

Students can get a good education at most schools if motivated and disciplined, but the more important issue is job placement & internship opportunities.

I do not understand the focus on PhD placement for small college students as most humanities PhD struggle to find decent jobs.

CTCL is little more than a marketing organization for small relatively unknown schools most of which face significant financial hurdles.

My DC, a Denison grad, is doing a STEM PhD as we speak. With an endowment stated to over $1 billion in 2023, the Denison endowment per student is over $400,000.

Why do you assume that students pursuing PhD are doing so in humanities fields?

Because that poster thinks big state schools are the best, only likes Computer Science and Engineering for majors, and doesn't understand the "research" part of research university.

Northeastern U., which gets so much love and devotion on this board, has a per-student endowment of $47,861 - a fraction of Denison's.

But sure Jan, tell us about how the CTCL schools are just a scam.

That's because Northeastern seems to be spending the endowment much more effectively and efficiently to produce results.
Retention rate, graduation rate, salary outcome, etc. all are way above Denison.
That's why also smarts kids come.

You don't know much about endowments, do you?

The important fact is that it produces great outcomes and results.