I was talking with a younger colleague last week. They're paying over $5000 a month between rent and childcare (we're not in DC) and I couldn't believe it. My kids are all older, but I have no idea how people manage with costs like that. I know how much he makes and his salary alone isn't enough to cover that.

I have zero sympathy. Having children and living in high-cost areas are choices.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DP but I have two co-workers who kept their infants at home for a full year while working full-time without any additional help (other than two WFH parents). One of them said she couldn't find childcare, the other one one said her mom was living with them (mom was definitely not living with them, we had mutual friends).

It’s like you are sad that two moms actually got to spend time with their infants!
No work is as important as this. And if they left work they would have a hard time going back because of policies that are hostile to mothers (and to everyone frankly with all the endless interviews).
I am glad infants are getting quality care instead of being in daycares

DP. If these women had the arrangement cleared with their employers, I would have zero complaints. But if they are taking advantage of the system, they are hurting all women in similar positions. We need longer parental leave, but the answer isn’t being paid for work while caring for a child.

Also infants get quality care in daycare. It would be amazing if we had longer parental leave, but don’t make parents feel like their child isn’t cared for in a quality daycare setting.

Let’s not fool ourselves
Policy changes won’t happen while our kids are little.
Maybe our grandkids? Who knows
And even a quality daycare is worse than 1:1 with a loving intelligent woman
It’s acceptable and doesn’t hurt the kids in the long run as there are so many factors at play but at least let’s be real

Enmeshed much? Your child is no longer a part of your own body.

Um, my kid is a teen and pretty independent.
I will never ever judge a woman putting her infant in daycare to work.
But let’s be honest with ourselves that for infants at least (not talking about preschool aged kids here) it’s better to have one primary caregiver for most of the day, and an intelligent one at that.

This is true, but unfortunately it's not possible to be a good primary caregiver at the same time as working a full time job. I did it with an infant in 2020 during covid and struggled to get in 6 hours of work a day even with help from my husband. I think American parental leaves should be paid and longer like in other countries, but WFH is not an appropriate solution to the problem.

It's against the law to bill or work for the government and not have childcare when you wfh

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know any parents skipping daycare but know several who gave up afterschool care (and they can definitely afford it). They also take an hour each day (outside of lunch) to pick their kids up at school and walk them home (but still log off at 5-5:30).

It’s frustrating to see as someone with kids who does the right thing, but I don’t work for their employers. If these are your coworkers, complain if it’s impacting you. Otherwise just smile politely when they complain about not getting raises or watch as their career stall.

I am sort of like this, except I start my day at 7 AM, frequently eat at my desk, and only take 20-30 minutes for pickup, so I'm definitely working a minimum of 8 hours a day. My 9 year old just wants to come home and veg on the couch until I'm done work. I don't see how this is abusing WFH. Maybe you don't see your coworkers logging on super early to make up time.

Well with all those caveats it certainly sounds like you are not abusing WFH and should probably be slightly annoyed with those that are, and whose actions could jeopardize your flexibility.

I don't actually know anyone I work with who abuses WFH flexibility, so no, I'm not annoyed with hypotheticals. I can honestly say I have excellent, dedicated colleagues who go above and beyond wherever they are working from. The RTO push jeopardizing my flexibility in my workplace has absolutely NOTHING to do with abuse of WFH.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know any parents skipping daycare but know several who gave up afterschool care (and they can definitely afford it). They also take an hour each day (outside of lunch) to pick their kids up at school and walk them home (but still log off at 5-5:30).

It’s frustrating to see as someone with kids who does the right thing, but I don’t work for their employers. If these are your coworkers, complain if it’s impacting you. Otherwise just smile politely when they complain about not getting raises or watch as their career stall.

Maybe it’s time to reevaluate priorities and see that a walk with your kids is more meaningful than achieving some made up goals at work.
Unless you are a doctor or teacher or someone like that, your job can wait

Don’t be stupid or disingenuous. Nobody gives a flying F if you are picking your kids up at school if you aren’t (1) saying you are not available for a meeting or delaying a deadline to do so or (2) are making up that time somewhere else. But the clean implication from the post is that these folks are not making up the time.

Making up all these excuses for those who abuse telework is going to hurt parents in the long run. I am really lost on how so many women fail to see that. The only reason I can come up with is that they are the ones intentionally abusing the situation and really don’t give a crap how it affects others.

I want parents to have flexibility that I did not have raising my kids. But just as some people abused telework during the pandemic and created scenarios where others need to RTO, so to will these parents hamper progress on by abusing WFH.

DP. Being “good girls” took parents nowhere. There is only more relaxed flex policies because of a health emergency.
The key is to not have them taken away again

I am sorry, what are you talking about?

Things have changed drastically for working parents, setting aside the pandemic. I have college age kids and even pre-pandemic things were improving significantly for parents in the white collar workforce.

The key to not getting things taken away is not to have employees abuse them. Most people are not against granting more parents flexibility. Most managers understand that keeping their best employees who become parents in the workforce is a long term advantage. But the key to retaining flexibility is not abusing it. The reason people have such a strong reaction to workers abusing it is because those are typically the mediocre workers whose action hurt the best working parents who are trying desperately to retain. They aren’t that great at their job, abuse the flexibility and drag everyone else down with them.

You do know people only stay 1-3 years in jobs. The company that provides flexibility gets abused. If employees stayed long term I agree

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That isn’t allowed in most work places. But I also wonder why you being a mom of two is relevant.

If OP hadn't specified that she was a mom too, she would have been blasted to high heaven about being a DINK or childless and not understanding the plight and struggles of parents.

Does OP even have a job? She just sounds like a judgy poop-stirrer

OP here. Full time employment. My experience is interacting with colleagues across our large system, across departments too.ive see the abuse first hand. I do have option to wfh three days a week. But j choose to come in 5 days a week bc I live less than 30 min away.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know any parents skipping daycare but know several who gave up afterschool care (and they can definitely afford it). They also take an hour each day (outside of lunch) to pick their kids up at school and walk them home (but still log off at 5-5:30).

It’s frustrating to see as someone with kids who does the right thing, but I don’t work for their employers. If these are your coworkers, complain if it’s impacting you. Otherwise just smile politely when they complain about not getting raises or watch as their career stall.

Maybe it’s time to reevaluate priorities and see that a walk with your kids is more meaningful than achieving some made up goals at work.
Unless you are a doctor or teacher or someone like that, your job can wait

Don’t be stupid or disingenuous. Nobody gives a flying F if you are picking your kids up at school if you aren’t (1) saying you are not available for a meeting or delaying a deadline to do so or (2) are making up that time somewhere else. But the clean implication from the post is that these folks are not making up the time.

Making up all these excuses for those who abuse telework is going to hurt parents in the long run. I am really lost on how so many women fail to see that. The only reason I can come up with is that they are the ones intentionally abusing the situation and really don’t give a crap how it affects others.

I want parents to have flexibility that I did not have raising my kids. But just as some people abused telework during the pandemic and created scenarios where others need to RTO, so to will these parents hamper progress on by abusing WFH.

DP. Being “good girls” took parents nowhere. There is only more relaxed flex policies because of a health emergency.
The key is to not have them taken away again

I am sorry, what are you talking about?

Things have changed drastically for working parents, setting aside the pandemic. I have college age kids and even pre-pandemic things were improving significantly for parents in the white collar workforce.

The key to not getting things taken away is not to have employees abuse them. Most people are not against granting more parents flexibility. Most managers understand that keeping their best employees who become parents in the workforce is a long term advantage. But the key to retaining flexibility is not abusing it. The reason people have such a strong reaction to workers abusing it is because those are typically the mediocre workers whose action hurt the best working parents who are trying desperately to retain. They aren’t that great at their job, abuse the flexibility and drag everyone else down with them.

Anonymous wrote:My only problem with WFH and Remote is this:

remote is Tuesday and Friday At work
Some staff claim the work 9.5 hours on their two remote days and other days in office 7 a day. So in office 21 hours a week. Only at work 1/2 the time.

Other staff skip Xmas party, summer party as not getting paid.

I have no problem as long as work is done but these people keep asking promotions and raises. A job is a job, a career is a career you can’t have both at most places

Those parties should either be during work hours, or be optional. Give people flex time if you're going to demand they socialize with coworkers.

Anonymous wrote:My only problem with WFH and Remote is this:

remote is Tuesday and Friday At work
Some staff claim the work 9.5 hours on their two remote days and other days in office 7 a day. So in office 21 hours a week. Only at work 1/2 the time.

Other staff skip Xmas party, summer party as not getting paid.

I have no problem as long as work is done but these people keep asking promotions and raises. A job is a job, a career is a career you can’t have both at most places

You don't have a summer party.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That isn’t allowed in most work places. But I also wonder why you being a mom of two is relevant.

If OP hadn't specified that she was a mom too, she would have been blasted to high heaven about being a DINK or childless and not understanding the plight and struggles of parents.

Does OP even have a job? She just sounds like a judgy poop-stirrer

My only problem with WFH and Remote is this:

remote is Tuesday and Friday At work
Some staff claim the work 9.5 hours on their two remote days and other days in office 7 a day. So in office 21 hours a week. Only at work 1/2 the time.

Other staff skip Xmas party, summer party as not getting paid.

I have no problem as long as work is done but these people keep asking promotions and raises. A job is a job, a career is a career you can’t have both at most places

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most jobs are BS paper pushing anyway. If we're talking a lawyer missing filing deadlines, that's a different story.

No, law is BS paper pushing as well. Maybe the quintessential example of this. Lawyers just need to think they’re really really important.

Says someone who will never be even a little important and is insecure about it.

Anonymous wrote:My friend is a GS-15 fed and she will mention how she reads a lot of personal books during the work day. She isn't even taking care of kids; just does her own while wfh

I’m not sure RTO addresses this. Sounds like she doesn’t have 40 hours of work, why wouldn’t she just read in the office

1. Why do you care what other people do? If you’re just jealous, then get the stones to do what they’re doing, Jeanie. If you’re earnestly shilling for corporate America, the GDP, and the integrity of work in the United States, you’re an absolute sucker. Sell crazy somewhere else.

2. Why should anyone care where work is being done? If I get my stuff on time and it’s well done, I don’t care if you wrote the memo from the North Pole. As it happens my associates are crap so this never happens, but it’s got nothing to do with WFH.

3. American white collar productivity has gone up astronomically for 50 years and time spent working has only increased. WFH is a very natural and predictable swinging back of the pendulum. I’m a lawyer. The partners I worked for early in my career (2000s) spent their careers GOING TO THE GD LIBRARY AND SEARCHING BOOKS for information. They wrote memos with typewriters. Their analysis was often based on one or two cases or interpretive letters they were able to find in a government agency reading room after weeks of research. They were absolute trash. A good lawyer now can slice and dice the entire universe of information and precedent in seconds; work from forms and templates to prepare very good work product in a tiny fraction of why those old sh$tty memos required. At some point these massive efficiencies should allow people to spend more time with their kids or go exercise or take a nap when they feel like it. I’m glad we’ve reclaimed some tiny sliver of sanity.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most jobs are BS paper pushing anyway. If we're talking a lawyer missing filing deadlines, that's a different story.

Lawyers don’t have to miss deadlines to be a problem. I’ve seen more than one lazy gov lawyer tell their boss they are too busy to take on new cases, and then play candy crush all day. The new cases then go to the lawyers who already have a pile of work that they are actually doing.

When I was a newly minted gov lawyer (back in the days of 100% in office) one of the first things my mentor told me was to take a minimum of two weeks to reply to any email from outside our department, otherwise we would just get asked more and more. I did not listen and eventually became that go to helpful person everyone came to because I got things done whether it was my assignment or not. I came to regret that.

Pp here. That sounds pretty…extreme? Take two weeks to respond? We were expected to respond to most emails before cob if possible.

Definitely extreme, it was a local government office with lots of political appointees. So many people would call me and I could literally hear relied I their voices as they'd explain they'd been calling for weeks and were so happy to speak to someone competent and felt like I would handle everything. And it sure did not get me more money.