Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's apply the standards of today to everyone that lived more than 200 years ago.
Then, in 100 years, we can apply the standards of that time to all the people alive today.
I am sure the enlightened souls in 2124 will find something repulsive about Obama, Clinton, and pretty much any leader we have had in the 20th and 21st century. Those memorials can then be removed.

It will take no time to wipe away all the history of our nation. Except, of course, Jan. 6, 2021. That day is more important than 9-11, D-Day, the Civil War, or any event in the past 2000 years. All history courses will be based on that day and that day only.

And, I am wondering what these enlightened souls will have to say about the George Floyd memorials constructed in Minnesota, NYC, and NJ.
He was such a virtuous person after all. /s

No one wants to wipe out the history of America. However, enslavers like Penn need to be called out forcefully and repeatedly and not celebrated. The nuance you and others on this thread seek will be reserved for experts and academia to study.
In case you missed it, January 6th was the most insidious attack on democracy the United States ever faced. The insurrectionists lead by Trump and most Republicans can within a hair’s breadth of seizing power and implementing a fascist state.

Are you suggesting we completely edit out the founding fathers from history, ignoring the pivotal role they played in creating the world’s greatest democracy?

I’m suggesting we recognize their importance as well as their complicated, flawed past through the lens of historical context and celebrate how far we’ve come post-abolition, post-civil rights era, etc.

There’s a lot to be learned from those who fought for religious freedom, equality, etc. A lot.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't imagine how people are so afraid of a statue.

There is no reason to celebrate humans who owned other humans.

This shouldn't be a hard concept to understand.

There is no reason for you to understand that life in the eighteenth century was fairly brutal and harsh for everyone, be they the 12 year old cabin boy plucked from the whorehouse in London, or the planter dying of syphilis, or his Irish servants also dying of syphilis, or his African slaves. Your complete blindness to any facts, your willingness to erase history doesn't help those dead slaves, or make their descendants' lives better. It's a hollow gesture, performed by someone who is undoubtedly proud their own ancestors weren't there... But also too lazy to check on what their own ancestors were up to. I guarantee, even without knowing you, there was some non consensual stuff going on in your family tree as well.

By dehumanizing slave owners, you're erasing slavery. No one is saying chattal slavery wasn't awful, but in the 18th, in a place like Philadelphia, it was only one of several unjust labor systems, all designed to function in a pre-industrial world with varying regards for the welfare of the people involved.

DP

Moreover, Penn led efforts to improve conditions for all workers and ultimately his reforms inspired the Constitution. His state was very much a leader in abolishing slavery and establishing a more just society.

Do you really believe that all white people enjoyed a happy go lucky life way back then? Like the pp explains, the vast majority of people suffered.

DP Sure sure. But why is Penn being on top of city hall in the center of town not enough? Moreover, the state is named after him and his former estate is a museum. He's still represented, no need to turn him into some great untouchable hero. Very few people are.

And when did you even start to have such devotion to a little statue in a nondescript plaza anyway? It's hilarious to hear people who couldn't care 2 figs about public sculpture/art and history, who probably never even heard of William Penn before, definitely didn't know about this statue, and are now suddenly all verklempt because of a small change being proposed. Change happens. Otherwise you live in mausoleum.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody should be surprised when Americans no longer take pride in the western democracy and values we established thanks to the continued denigration of our history. Was it a perfect history? No. But it resulted in a democracy built on the rule of law and eventual equality unmatched around the globe…and yet here we are promoting a narrative that we should only feel shame.

Instead of tearing down a statue and erasing history, why not add a component recognizing the Native American past?

We are heading down the wrong path when we rewrite history and tarnish our accomplishments with shame.

Stop dividing; start reunifying.

We are Americans…regardless of when your ancestors arrived and regardless of where you came from. Unify under our american values and celebrate the diversity of all who came here for a better life.

Lastly: stop pretending that America is a miserable failure. It isn’t.

There can be no unity without repentance. I'm glad the Biden admin is taking this steps. Western civilization was built on disease, death & destruction of others. There is no pride in that kind of society. There has been no other society as destructive and unkind to humans as Western civilization. So if the goal is to move ahead, we need to leave the past behind. Start over.

Eastern civilization was … peacefully built?

+ 1

I think we can all rattle off a list of non-western countries where women still don’t enjoy equality, gays are thrown off buildings, etc. Forget their colonizing history…just look at how they behave today in 2024…how they treat “others” largely defined by ethnicity and/or religion.

It’s preposterous to assert our imperfect history and subsequent evolution are somehow worse than how other countries behave today.

+100

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody should be surprised when Americans no longer take pride in the western democracy and values we established thanks to the continued denigration of our history. Was it a perfect history? No. But it resulted in a democracy built on the rule of law and eventual equality unmatched around the globe…and yet here we are promoting a narrative that we should only feel shame.

Instead of tearing down a statue and erasing history, why not add a component recognizing the Native American past?

We are heading down the wrong path when we rewrite history and tarnish our accomplishments with shame.

Stop dividing; start reunifying.

We are Americans…regardless of when your ancestors arrived and regardless of where you came from. Unify under our american values and celebrate the diversity of all who came here for a better life.

Lastly: stop pretending that America is a miserable failure. It isn’t.

There can be no unity without repentance. I'm glad the Biden admin is taking this steps. Western civilization was built on disease, death & destruction of others. There is no pride in that kind of society. There has been no other society as destructive and unkind to humans as Western civilization. So if the goal is to move ahead, we need to leave the past behind. Start over.

Eastern civilization was … peacefully built?

+1
The lengths these people will go to pretend that other civilizations were somehow free of vice/slavery/colonization is just astounding. Look at teh Egyptians, just for one example.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/slavery_1.shtml
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/cambridge-world-history-of-violence/human-sacrifice-and-ritualised-violence-in-the-americas-before-the-european-conquest/3B27826BAF08997EF2546FFEF0DC7974

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody should be surprised when Americans no longer take pride in the western democracy and values we established thanks to the continued denigration of our history. Was it a perfect history? No. But it resulted in a democracy built on the rule of law and eventual equality unmatched around the globe…and yet here we are promoting a narrative that we should only feel shame.

Instead of tearing down a statue and erasing history, why not add a component recognizing the Native American past?

We are heading down the wrong path when we rewrite history and tarnish our accomplishments with shame.

Stop dividing; start reunifying.

We are Americans…regardless of when your ancestors arrived and regardless of where you came from. Unify under our american values and celebrate the diversity of all who came here for a better life.

Lastly: stop pretending that America is a miserable failure. It isn’t.

There can be no unity without repentance. I'm glad the Biden admin is taking this steps. Western civilization was built on disease, death & destruction of others. There is no pride in that kind of society. There has been no other society as destructive and unkind to humans as Western civilization. So if the goal is to move ahead, we need to leave the past behind. Start over.

DP. You must be joking. Good grief, learn some history about how Africans treated one another, or Asians... you're dreaming if you think "Western" civilization was somehow worse than any other.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-the-slave-traders-were-african-11568991595
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/an-african-country-reckons-with-its-history-of-selling-slaves/2018/01/29/5234f5aa-ff9a-11e7-86b9-8908743c79dd_story.html
https://www.cambridge.org/core/elements/abs/slavery-in-east-asia/69CDDD5E84C9CC20EF4E67ECB832BD17
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/history-of-subsaharan-africa/asian-slave-trade/20938F6ADC9096FD22BDDCA5C581F1CF

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have you been to that "park"? (It's not really a park, it's a plaza between buildings) It's been in need of work by the National Park Service for years, and the addition of exhibits describing the importance of the location to both the native people and the Europeans who settled there is a good thing.

And about the statue - it's a small copy of the 37-foot statue of Penn which is on top of Philadelphia's City Hall building. So calm yourself, no one is being "canceled."

https://www.associationforpublicart.org/artwork/william-penn/

I knew there would some context that the hair on fire freak out conservatives weren’t aware of.

DP. I think the point is, why the need to take down this statue at all? Why not simply add statues of Native Americans? And the other statue of Penn is ON TOP of a building, hardly something to get a good look at.

Anonymous wrote:Nobody should be surprised when Americans no longer take pride in the western democracy and values we established thanks to the continued denigration of our history. Was it a perfect history? No. But it resulted in a democracy built on the rule of law and eventual equality unmatched around the globe…and yet here we are promoting a narrative that we should only feel shame.

Instead of tearing down a statue and erasing history, why not add a component recognizing the Native American past?

We are heading down the wrong path when we rewrite history and tarnish our accomplishments with shame.

Stop dividing; start reunifying.

We are Americans…regardless of when your ancestors arrived and regardless of where you came from. Unify under our american values and celebrate the diversity of all who came here for a better life.

Lastly: stop pretending that America is a miserable failure. It isn’t.

+ a million

Anonymous wrote:When will the madness end.

+1
Just when I thought certain people in this country couldn't be any more caricature-like. Can't roll my eyes hard enough.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's apply the standards of today to everyone that lived more than 200 years ago.
Then, in 100 years, we can apply the standards of that time to all the people alive today.
I am sure the enlightened souls in 2124 will find something repulsive about Obama, Clinton, and pretty much any leader we have had in the 20th and 21st century. Those memorials can then be removed.

It will take no time to wipe away all the history of our nation. Except, of course, Jan. 6, 2021. That day is more important than 9-11, D-Day, the Civil War, or any event in the past 2000 years. All history courses will be based on that day and that day only.

And, I am wondering what these enlightened souls will have to say about the George Floyd memorials constructed in Minnesota, NYC, and NJ.
He was such a virtuous person after all. /s

No one wants to wipe out the history of America. However, enslavers like Penn need to be called out forcefully and repeatedly and not celebrated. The nuance you and others on this thread seek will be reserved for experts and academia to study.
In case you missed it, January 6th was the most insidious attack on democracy the United States ever faced. The insurrectionists lead by Trump and most Republicans can within a hair’s breadth of seizing power and implementing a fascist state.

Oh come on, really?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's apply the standards of today to everyone that lived more than 200 years ago.
Then, in 100 years, we can apply the standards of that time to all the people alive today.
I am sure the enlightened souls in 2124 will find something repulsive about Obama, Clinton, and pretty much any leader we have had in the 20th and 21st century. Those memorials can then be removed.

It will take no time to wipe away all the history of our nation. Except, of course, Jan. 6, 2021. That day is more important than 9-11, D-Day, the Civil War, or any event in the past 2000 years. All history courses will be based on that day and that day only.

And, I am wondering what these enlightened souls will have to say about the George Floyd memorials constructed in Minnesota, NYC, and NJ.
He was such a virtuous person after all. /s

No one wants to wipe out the history of America. However, enslavers like Penn need to be called out forcefully and repeatedly and not celebrated. The nuance you and others on this thread seek will be reserved for experts and academia to study.
In case you missed it, January 6th was the most insidious attack on democracy the United States ever faced. The insurrectionists lead by Trump and most Republicans can within a hair’s breadth of seizing power and implementing a fascist state.

DP. This is truly an insane statement. Just insane.

Anonymous wrote:Let's apply the standards of today to everyone that lived more than 200 years ago.
Then, in 100 years, we can apply the standards of that time to all the people alive today.
I am sure the enlightened souls in 2124 will find something repulsive about Obama, Clinton, and pretty much any leader we have had in the 20th and 21st century. Those memorials can then be removed.

It will take no time to wipe away all the history of our nation. Except, of course, Jan. 6, 2021. That day is more important than 9-11, D-Day, the Civil War, or any event in the past 2000 years. All history courses will be based on that day and that day only.

And, I am wondering what these enlightened souls will have to say about the George Floyd memorials constructed in Minnesota, NYC, and NJ.
He was such a virtuous person after all. /s

No one wants to wipe out the history of America. However, enslavers like Penn need to be called out forcefully and repeatedly and not celebrated. The nuance you and others on this thread seek will be reserved for experts and academia to study.
In case you missed it, January 6th was the most insidious attack on democracy the United States ever faced. The insurrectionists lead by Trump and most Republicans can within a hair’s breadth of seizing power and implementing a fascist state.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't imagine how people are so afraid of a statue.

There is no reason to celebrate humans who owned other humans.

This shouldn't be a hard concept to understand.

There is no reason for you to understand that life in the eighteenth century was fairly brutal and harsh for everyone, be they the 12 year old cabin boy plucked from the whorehouse in London, or the planter dying of syphilis, or his Irish servants also dying of syphilis, or his African slaves. Your complete blindness to any facts, your willingness to erase history doesn't help those dead slaves, or make their descendants' lives better. It's a hollow gesture, performed by someone who is undoubtedly proud their own ancestors weren't there... But also too lazy to check on what their own ancestors were up to. I guarantee, even without knowing you, there was some non consensual stuff going on in your family tree as well.

By dehumanizing slave owners, you're erasing slavery. No one is saying chattal slavery wasn't awful, but in the 18th, in a place like Philadelphia, it was only one of several unjust labor systems, all designed to function in a pre-industrial world with varying regards for the welfare of the people involved.

Your whataboutism is academically lazy.

Your response shows your seriousness. Or lack thereof.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't imagine how people are so afraid of a statue.

There is no reason to celebrate humans who owned other humans.

This shouldn't be a hard concept to understand.

There is no reason for you to understand that life in the eighteenth century was fairly brutal and harsh for everyone, be they the 12 year old cabin boy plucked from the whorehouse in London, or the planter dying of syphilis, or his Irish servants also dying of syphilis, or his African slaves. Your complete blindness to any facts, your willingness to erase history doesn't help those dead slaves, or make their descendants' lives better. It's a hollow gesture, performed by someone who is undoubtedly proud their own ancestors weren't there... But also too lazy to check on what their own ancestors were up to. I guarantee, even without knowing you, there was some non consensual stuff going on in your family tree as well.

By dehumanizing slave owners, you're erasing slavery. No one is saying chattal slavery wasn't awful, but in the 18th, in a place like Philadelphia, it was only one of several unjust labor systems, all designed to function in a pre-industrial world with varying regards for the welfare of the people involved.

Your whataboutism is academically lazy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't imagine how people are so afraid of a statue.

There is no reason to celebrate humans who owned other humans.

This shouldn't be a hard concept to understand.

There is no reason for you to understand that life in the eighteenth century was fairly brutal and harsh for everyone, be they the 12 year old cabin boy plucked from the whorehouse in London, or the planter dying of syphilis, or his Irish servants also dying of syphilis, or his African slaves. Your complete blindness to any facts, your willingness to erase history doesn't help those dead slaves, or make their descendants' lives better. It's a hollow gesture, performed by someone who is undoubtedly proud their own ancestors weren't there... But also too lazy to check on what their own ancestors were up to. I guarantee, even without knowing you, there was some non consensual stuff going on in your family tree as well.

By dehumanizing slave owners, you're erasing slavery. No one is saying chattal slavery wasn't awful, but in the 18th, in a place like Philadelphia, it was only one of several unjust labor systems, all designed to function in a pre-industrial world with varying regards for the welfare of the people involved.

DP

Moreover, Penn led efforts to improve conditions for all workers and ultimately his reforms inspired the Constitution. His state was very much a leader in abolishing slavery and establishing a more just society.

Do you really believe that all white people enjoyed a happy go lucky life way back then? Like the pp explains, the vast majority of people suffered.

It's so academically lazy of the PP to dismiss all of this, too. I mean, sure, history becomes a very short topic when all you need to say is, "I'm not going to celebrate slaveowners or colonizers," but that's because you've never studied enough history to understand what those words mean: you've been given a laughably reductive version of our collective past and been told it's fine not to study the parts that might upset you, or not have clear moral lessons that promote the conceit that you're more enlightened than those bad bad people ever were.

It's soviet, for lack of a better term, your version of history. It's designed to give a moral lesson that celebrates you as some kind of enlightened, virtuous person. It's designed to make you feel better about yourself without ever making you lift a finger to address any of the issues in America that continue to be legacies of our past: our segregated neighborhoods and schools, our religious fundamentalism, our tribalism, our insistence on rugged individualism over collective good, and our belief in heroes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't imagine how people are so afraid of a statue.

There is no reason to celebrate humans who owned other humans.

This shouldn't be a hard concept to understand.

There is no reason for you to understand that life in the eighteenth century was fairly brutal and harsh for everyone, be they the 12 year old cabin boy plucked from the whorehouse in London, or the planter dying of syphilis, or his Irish servants also dying of syphilis, or his African slaves. Your complete blindness to any facts, your willingness to erase history doesn't help those dead slaves, or make their descendants' lives better. It's a hollow gesture, performed by someone who is undoubtedly proud their own ancestors weren't there... But also too lazy to check on what their own ancestors were up to. I guarantee, even without knowing you, there was some non consensual stuff going on in your family tree as well.

By dehumanizing slave owners, you're erasing slavery. No one is saying chattal slavery wasn't awful, but in the 18th, in a place like Philadelphia, it was only one of several unjust labor systems, all designed to function in a pre-industrial world with varying regards for the welfare of the people involved.

DP

Moreover, Penn led efforts to improve conditions for all workers and ultimately his reforms inspired the Constitution. His state was very much a leader in abolishing slavery and establishing a more just society.

Do you really believe that all white people enjoyed a happy go lucky life way back then? Like the pp explains, the vast majority of people suffered.