Seems like engineering schools are probably losing competent students just because the kids and their parents are used to inflated HS GPAs, believe a B is the equivalent of an F, and think a freshman year GPA of 3.0 means they’re “bad at engineering.”

Anonymous wrote:For those curious about which specializations are available within ECE, here is a sampler (which happens to be from VT; hat tip to PP for the CivilE link into the VT catalog):

“https://catalog.vt.edu/undergraduate/college-engineering/electrical-computer-engineering/”

Some of those specializations will pay much better (due to supply/demand) than others will. The Student’s topical interest partly drives that choice of specialization. Wiser students also will factor in the market supply/demand information when choosing.

CS has a similar amount of specialization. Those upper level undergrad CS elective choices also can make a big difference in one’s starting salary and career options.

Salary variance (up or down) from the mean salary for degrees in CS or ECE probably correlates more closely to one’s specialization than to which university granted one’s degree. In these jobs it is mostly about which skills one brings yo the employer/job. The most important skill, as in any field, is the ability to teach oneself new material.

LOL. Our graduating class had someone who became a professional athlete right after college. Their 'salary' blew our 'average' way out of whack! Median might have been a better metric.

And, I'll double-down on the last bold statement. No truer thing can be said and people who survive engineering school are usually really, really good at that.

For those curious about which specializations are available within ECE, here is a sampler (which happens to be from VT; hat tip to PP for the CivilE link into the VT catalog):

“https://catalog.vt.edu/undergraduate/college-engineering/electrical-computer-engineering/”

Some of those specializations will pay much better (due to supply/demand) than others will. The Student’s topical interest partly drives that choice of specialization. Wiser students also will factor in the market supply/demand information when choosing.

CS has a similar amount of specialization. Those upper level undergrad CS elective choices also can make a big difference in one’s starting salary and career options.

Salary variance (up or down) from the mean salary for degrees in CS or ECE probably correlates more closely to one’s specialization than to which university granted one’s degree. In these jobs it is mostly about which skills one brings yo the employer/job. The most important skill, as in any field, is the ability to teach oneself new material.

Anonymous wrote:The engineering majors that I knew found Civil Engineering and Structural Engineering to be much much easier than Architecture school and Building Construction school.

At our Division I college many Architecture students transfer into Engineering as it is much easier. The same holds true for Building Construction.

GPA does not matter so much. You have to pass the state boards licensing exam in order to sign and seal.

I would also agree with this generalization. While I don't know enough to differentiate between EE, ME, and ChemE....I genuinely believe them more difficult than CE. But it's relative, real relative as they're all hard.

You're also right on the GPA thing post-graduation, especially for Civils. The EIT/FE + PE is what's much more important. What really tripped me up, years ago, was the Exam was sooooo heavy on Structural when that wasn't what I did at all. Glad to see the Exam now has way more specialized options. I would've loved this exam structure breakdown!

Anonymous wrote:Great thread. I am wondering if the Engineering curriculum is needlessly being made hard?

I am an engineer and use less than 10% of the math courses I had.

We keep hearing about shortage of engineers. Are the universities driving away potential students??

I personally don't think it's needlessly hard but I do think they often glory in weeding many out.

The foundations (ha! had to work in a CE reference) -- of some higher level math and basic applied maths -- are needed to fully understand the upper-level concepts. Take a look at Virginia Tech and MIT's CE requirements: they're still requiring multiple semesters of Calculus, Differential Equations (the 'pure' math) but also things like basic physics, chemistry, probability/stats, and economics which rely heavily on higher level mathematics. And that doesn't even begin to cover the actual 'engineering' classes.

For a freak out: check out VT's suggested "Road Map" on what graduating in four years really means. I'm assuming those (C-) mean you must get at least a C- before taking the next iteration, hence the name C-Wall Class; also check out those 'restricted' electives. Don't they say Easy-A to you? /s

You're right, though, actual 'math' used on the job is generally minimal. Much of it is now done by software and behind the scenes. A successful professional engineer's biggest skill is often the ability to navigate between the sometimes competing interests of clients, regulatory requirements, and the accountants. Way more of it is predicated on financing than what you're taught 'in school.' The 'real' math = money.

To the poster comparing with Physics, the professor teaching my Advanced Physics for Engineers course complained that the E school made them cover in 3 semesters - at the same depth - the content that a BS Physics major covered in 4 semesters.

Also, one of the best EEs I have worked with obtained a BS Physics (with focus on Electro-Magnetism) elsewhere, then took EE 499 (an all summer degree conversion course) at a different university, and then 4 semesters of (mostly graduate level) EE courses there to get his MSEE. That might still be an option at some universities.

A corollary to most of the posts in this thread is that Engineering students do not have a lot of “free time” during the semester. Best I ever managed was most Friday nights off and most Saturdays off.

Sunday after lunch through Friday at 5pm was just eat/sleep/study, where study was attend class & take notes, do problem sets, attend labs, do lab writeups, and more. It really is a grind.

Kids who want to either goof off or have a busy social life (during the week) while an undergrad will have a much harder time graduating with an engineering degree.

Oddly, many find their MS engineering degree is not so much of a grind and a much more tractable workload than their BS engineering degree.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, I have a son who is in his first year hoping to get into Computer Engineering and needs a 3.75 GPA to be competitive (he is in general engineering for now), after his first semester he has a 3.45, which is great but might put him in the running for electrical or mechanical which are his fall backs for now. We have a daughter in her third year at a different university majoring in systems engineering with a minor in mechanical. They both work hard and I will give them extra props this week before they head back to school.

It is difficult to get and maintain a High gpa in engineering/cs. This is a good reason for people to consider schools where you can select any engineering you want and it's not a competition to maintain a 3.8+ to get into the major you desire. They do exist at many good engineering schools. My kid was accepted at 4 of that type, all in the 30-70 range.

Which schools, we're looking for direct admit.

Not PP, but my DD really liked Pitt for this reason. They do not cap engineering disciplines. I believe that Case Western is the same

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t get what’s so difficult. Couldn’t you just copy someone else’s answers & forget to cite them?

That only works at Harvard.

or if your Melania Trump

or Bill Ackman's wife

The engineering majors that I knew found Civil Engineering and Structural Engineering to be much much easier than Architecture school and Building Construction school.

At our Division I college many Architecture students transfer into Engineering as it is much easier. The same holds true for Building Construction.

GPA does not matter so much. You have to pass the state boards licensing exam in order to sign and seal.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, I have a son who is in his first year hoping to get into Computer Engineering and needs a 3.75 GPA to be competitive (he is in general engineering for now), after his first semester he has a 3.45, which is great but might put him in the running for electrical or mechanical which are his fall backs for now. We have a daughter in her third year at a different university majoring in systems engineering with a minor in mechanical. They both work hard and I will give them extra props this week before they head back to school.

It is difficult to get and maintain a High gpa in engineering/cs. This is a good reason for people to consider schools where you can select any engineering you want and it's not a competition to maintain a 3.8+ to get into the major you desire. They do exist at many good engineering schools. My kid was accepted at 4 of that type, all in the 30-70 range.

Which schools, we're looking for direct admit.

Anonymous wrote:Gosh this is making me rethink my daughter’s plans to major in engineering. She’s super good at math but has never expressed interest in building things. It sounds quite hard.

Boys too have a hard time with engineering.

It's a difficult major for everyone

But if you are smart and disciplined enough to get into a solid engineering program, everything else will seem comparably easy.

But engineering doesn't mess around. It's a difficult degree for everyone.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t get what’s so difficult. Couldn’t you just copy someone else’s answers & forget to cite them?

That only works at Harvard.

or if your Melania Trump

NP, another female engineer here. The science & engineering school at the time was roughly 75% male, but nearly all of the women were in biology or geology. MechE, ChemE, EE, Structures, and Aero were much more heavily male. That's where I was, and often the only woman in my group or class. Today the school is about 65/45, but I don't know the breakdown by majors.

It was hard, no lie. I've done some hard things in my life, and that's the only thing I've ever really contemplated quitting because I didn't know if I could do it. Stubbornness won out, I graduated with a lot of Cs. Not sure I'd survive it today. The good news is that I really learned a ton, despite what the grades would indicate, and I've been successful in an engineering career for over 25 years.

Engineering can be a great career, and I'm not discouraging my kids who are interested. But my message to them is that you have to really WANT it. If you go into it thinking ok this is as good a choice as any ... you'll be miserable. You have to feel a drive for it. If you don't, keep looking.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Female with an EE undergrad. Most classes were so hard for me, but I powered through and graduated with a poor GPA. As a result, internships and first jobs were hard to get. I eventually found my footing and I’m now a successful software engineer (thanks to the CS classes required for the EE degree).

How poor was your GPA if you don't mind sharing? This is my concern with DD who is a current sophomore in engineering. She has a 3.0, but seems to be really struggling. Wondering if I should suggest she look at other majors

Should this REALLY be in the direction we are going?? Holy crap.