The elementary testing schedule for this year DOES include COGAT for 2nd graders. Did last year's schedule have that too?

Anonymous wrote:Staff member here. Second graders at my school are getting the cogat this December at my school.

That's great. Sounds like they are going back to it for SIPPI.

Anonymous wrote:Staff member here. Second graders at my school are getting the cogat this December at my school.

Unannounced pilot, perhaps? Hope they don't use the results in some kind of strawman argument to preserve the current SIPPI & magnet selection regimes.

Staff member here. Second graders at my school are getting the cogat this December at my school.

to conduct a COGAT test MCPS would need to have a contract with the test provider and pay for the test. Does MCPS have the funds to do this now? there are so many financial pressures on the MCPS budget... i wonder if MCPS has the budget to do the testing this year. my guess not.

Anonymous wrote:Lottery is absurd on its face. It only makes sense as a political protest. MCPS is saying that XXX kids would benefit from this program but only Y% get in.

Imagine if that was the policy for all of school! "Oh, we have 15000 kindergarten age kids in MoCo, but only 5000 seats at school".

Raise taxes, hire more teachers and require higher teaching skills and pay them more.
Stop shamefully hiding the magnet curriculum. Post it online for everyone.
Organize virtual classes for unlimited students to join.
Pay high schoolers to tutor elementary and middle schoolers. (Boost that college app resume!)

Or end the magnets.

One thing we should not do is to raise taxes again to give to MCPS.

MCPS stopped administering CogAT, and that saved hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Advocates have asked MCPS to use the savings on AEI, but MCPS refuses to say where the money went.

Lottery is absurd on its face. It only makes sense as a political protest. MCPS is saying that XXX kids would benefit from this program but only Y% get in.

Imagine if that was the policy for all of school! "Oh, we have 15000 kindergarten age kids in MoCo, but only 5000 seats at school".

Raise taxes, hire more teachers and require higher teaching skills and pay them more.
Stop shamefully hiding the magnet curriculum. Post it online for everyone.
Organize virtual classes for unlimited students to join.
Pay high schoolers to tutor elementary and middle schoolers. (Boost that college app resume!)

Or end the magnets.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The lottery brought in a lot of undeserving kids into the middle school magnet programs at the expense of kids who were at the 99th percentile in MAP. Kids who would have presumably also done very well in COGAT. The lottery has diluted the quality of the magnet under the guise of diversity. Bring COGAT or some other objective testing method back.

Not necessarily. MAP tests content knowledge, not intelligence.

Same with CogAT. Very easy to prep for like SATs.

Who in their right mind preps for COGAT? We didn't even know what it is.

All I know is a third of TJ's class a few years back came from one single prep center and in years past, there were several well-known tutors locally for CogAT. I think the going rate was $150/hour. I know just taking a few practice tests helped my child improve their score by over 20%.

I looked, but couldn't find that news article? If you're not lying, please provide the link.

Curie took an ad out in the paper listing the names of their students who were accepted a few years ago. It was around 30% of the entering class. This has been well covered.

I remember a werbsite from a few years ago that listed the names of the students they got over the hurdle. It was a big selling point. Dr. somebody?

This discussion seems pretty whacky, because ...

TJ did not use CogAT - they had their own test.

Also, any process that includes CogAT is way better than a process that does not. Why? It is an aptitude test, that even if you prep for it, the improvement is at the margins. It is unlike tests like SAT that measure achievement, and can be prepped for. Years ago there was a controversy when SAT was advertised as an aptitude test, but after it was shown that it can be prepped for college board dropped that claim. You can look up yourself, but here is a sample page that talks about the history of SAT: https://blog.prepscholar.com/what-does-sat-stand-for

If you claim that CogAT can be prepped for and the effect is not just marginal, please provide a link to a study. I am sure there has been research into the topic of measuring innate ability.

Great! So MCPS can just offer SAT prep classes to all kids and they can all score 1500+! Oh, wait, they already do - it's called SCHOOL.

MCPS CO claims it's all unfair and it's just a money thing, tries to shove kids that are less qualified into Magnet programs versus the best-of-the-best, then whines when it doesn't work out - blaming parents, or poor people for not having money to pay for prep classes, or parents interfering with teachers - anyone but themselves. It's disgusting and the majority of the Central Office, to include the Sup, need to be fired.

The problem is not that there are less-qualified students getting into magnets but that there aren't enough magnet seats (or local-programming true equivalents) in the first place. Far more kids can benefit from the kinds of curricula/teaching approaches offered in magnet programs than ever have been offered a seat. It doesn't need to be only those that can get straight As while doing so or Real Genius types.

No, they are definitely allowing less qualified kids into the CES. And it has affected the course work.

Adding more Magnets isn’t the answer. MCPS should be offering actual enrichment at every level. MCPs needs to go back to differentiated learning in MS and ES instead of putting all kids in a useless Advanced English class.

Offer enrichment to kids at every school. THAT is equitable. Quit lowering expectations for the kids in lower-income/high FARMS schools.

The buzz words are "equity," "antiracism," and "achievement gap." More than 1/3 of MCPS's high school students are chronically absent. Dozens of teachers were sexually harassed, and MCPS promoted the harasser...

MCPS has no time to think about the high achievers. Parents of high achievers just need to do things themselves. Enroll them in AOPS, C2, etc. There are hundreds of free classes on Khan, Coursera, Udemy, etc.

Udemy through the public library is free. I enrolled my middle-school daughter in a highly-rated graphic design course over the summer, she learned a ton from a practicing professional graphic designer, and we paid $0. I'm not aware of any MCPS program that offers such high-quality instruction.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The lottery brought in a lot of undeserving kids into the middle school magnet programs at the expense of kids who were at the 99th percentile in MAP. Kids who would have presumably also done very well in COGAT. The lottery has diluted the quality of the magnet under the guise of diversity. Bring COGAT or some other objective testing method back.

Not necessarily. MAP tests content knowledge, not intelligence.

Same with CogAT. Very easy to prep for like SATs.

Who in their right mind preps for COGAT? We didn't even know what it is.

All I know is a third of TJ's class a few years back came from one single prep center and in years past, there were several well-known tutors locally for CogAT. I think the going rate was $150/hour. I know just taking a few practice tests helped my child improve their score by over 20%.

I looked, but couldn't find that news article? If you're not lying, please provide the link.

Curie took an ad out in the paper listing the names of their students who were accepted a few years ago. It was around 30% of the entering class. This has been well covered.

I remember a werbsite from a few years ago that listed the names of the students they got over the hurdle. It was a big selling point. Dr. somebody?

This discussion seems pretty whacky, because ...

TJ did not use CogAT - they had their own test.

Also, any process that includes CogAT is way better than a process that does not. Why? It is an aptitude test, that even if you prep for it, the improvement is at the margins. It is unlike tests like SAT that measure achievement, and can be prepped for. Years ago there was a controversy when SAT was advertised as an aptitude test, but after it was shown that it can be prepped for college board dropped that claim. You can look up yourself, but here is a sample page that talks about the history of SAT: https://blog.prepscholar.com/what-does-sat-stand-for

If you claim that CogAT can be prepped for and the effect is not just marginal, please provide a link to a study. I am sure there has been research into the topic of measuring innate ability.

Great! So MCPS can just offer SAT prep classes to all kids and they can all score 1500+! Oh, wait, they already do - it's called SCHOOL.

MCPS CO claims it's all unfair and it's just a money thing, tries to shove kids that are less qualified into Magnet programs versus the best-of-the-best, then whines when it doesn't work out - blaming parents, or poor people for not having money to pay for prep classes, or parents interfering with teachers - anyone but themselves. It's disgusting and the majority of the Central Office, to include the Sup, need to be fired.

The problem is not that there are less-qualified students getting into magnets but that there aren't enough magnet seats (or local-programming true equivalents) in the first place. Far more kids can benefit from the kinds of curricula/teaching approaches offered in magnet programs than ever have been offered a seat. It doesn't need to be only those that can get straight As while doing so or Real Genius types.

No, they are definitely allowing less qualified kids into the CES. And it has affected the course work.

Adding more Magnets isn’t the answer. MCPS should be offering actual enrichment at every level. MCPs needs to go back to differentiated learning in MS and ES instead of putting all kids in a useless Advanced English class.

Offer enrichment to kids at every school. THAT is equitable. Quit lowering expectations for the kids in lower-income/high FARMS schools.

You're misreading what I wrote, or, perhaps, I didn't write it clearly.

I wasn't saying that those entering the magnets are still the top 2%. I was saying that students from far beyond the top 2% would benefit from magnet-level/type programming (here in MoCo, at least, but probably far and wide).

And the top 2% don't need to be only among themselves to benefit -- the programs should supply a level of rigor that would provide the benefit, even if there might be struggles for others from the top x% (10%? 12%? Might be different each year if identification were accomplished under a better paradigm). Struggle is often, and should be, productive for those kids; the objective shouldn't be that everyone easily gets an A (though profile assessments for later selection should, then, take into account the more rigorous path taken).

And it doesn't need to be more magnet centers. It certainly could be done with more local programming, as long as that provided a truly similar experience, the identification/selection paradigm was as robust and unbiased as possible, and the resulting opportunity between local and magnet enrichment/acceleration programs was reasonably equally accessible (there would be some travel considerations that probably couldn't be completely equalized) from any county neighborhood.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The lottery brought in a lot of undeserving kids into the middle school magnet programs at the expense of kids who were at the 99th percentile in MAP. Kids who would have presumably also done very well in COGAT. The lottery has diluted the quality of the magnet under the guise of diversity. Bring COGAT or some other objective testing method back.

Not necessarily. MAP tests content knowledge, not intelligence.

Same with CogAT. Very easy to prep for like SATs.

Who in their right mind preps for COGAT? We didn't even know what it is.

All I know is a third of TJ's class a few years back came from one single prep center and in years past, there were several well-known tutors locally for CogAT. I think the going rate was $150/hour. I know just taking a few practice tests helped my child improve their score by over 20%.

I looked, but couldn't find that news article? If you're not lying, please provide the link.

Curie took an ad out in the paper listing the names of their students who were accepted a few years ago. It was around 30% of the entering class. This has been well covered.

I remember a werbsite from a few years ago that listed the names of the students they got over the hurdle. It was a big selling point. Dr. somebody?

This discussion seems pretty whacky, because ...

TJ did not use CogAT - they had their own test.

Also, any process that includes CogAT is way better than a process that does not. Why? It is an aptitude test, that even if you prep for it, the improvement is at the margins. It is unlike tests like SAT that measure achievement, and can be prepped for. Years ago there was a controversy when SAT was advertised as an aptitude test, but after it was shown that it can be prepped for college board dropped that claim. You can look up yourself, but here is a sample page that talks about the history of SAT: https://blog.prepscholar.com/what-does-sat-stand-for

If you claim that CogAT can be prepped for and the effect is not just marginal, please provide a link to a study. I am sure there has been research into the topic of measuring innate ability.

Great! So MCPS can just offer SAT prep classes to all kids and they can all score 1500+! Oh, wait, they already do - it's called SCHOOL.

MCPS CO claims it's all unfair and it's just a money thing, tries to shove kids that are less qualified into Magnet programs versus the best-of-the-best, then whines when it doesn't work out - blaming parents, or poor people for not having money to pay for prep classes, or parents interfering with teachers - anyone but themselves. It's disgusting and the majority of the Central Office, to include the Sup, need to be fired.

The problem is not that there are less-qualified students getting into magnets but that there aren't enough magnet seats (or local-programming true equivalents) in the first place. Far more kids can benefit from the kinds of curricula/teaching approaches offered in magnet programs than ever have been offered a seat. It doesn't need to be only those that can get straight As while doing so or Real Genius types.

No, they are definitely allowing less qualified kids into the CES. And it has affected the course work.

Adding more Magnets isn’t the answer. MCPS should be offering actual enrichment at every level. MCPs needs to go back to differentiated learning in MS and ES instead of putting all kids in a useless Advanced English class.

Offer enrichment to kids at every school. THAT is equitable. Quit lowering expectations for the kids in lower-income/high FARMS schools.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The lottery brought in a lot of undeserving kids into the middle school magnet programs at the expense of kids who were at the 99th percentile in MAP. Kids who would have presumably also done very well in COGAT. The lottery has diluted the quality of the magnet under the guise of diversity. Bring COGAT or some other objective testing method back.

Not necessarily. MAP tests content knowledge, not intelligence.

Same with CogAT. Very easy to prep for like SATs.

Who in their right mind preps for COGAT? We didn't even know what it is.

All I know is a third of TJ's class a few years back came from one single prep center and in years past, there were several well-known tutors locally for CogAT. I think the going rate was $150/hour. I know just taking a few practice tests helped my child improve their score by over 20%.

I looked, but couldn't find that news article? If you're not lying, please provide the link.

Curie took an ad out in the paper listing the names of their students who were accepted a few years ago. It was around 30% of the entering class. This has been well covered.

I remember a werbsite from a few years ago that listed the names of the students they got over the hurdle. It was a big selling point. Dr. somebody?

This discussion seems pretty whacky, because ...

TJ did not use CogAT - they had their own test.

Also, any process that includes CogAT is way better than a process that does not. Why? It is an aptitude test, that even if you prep for it, the improvement is at the margins. It is unlike tests like SAT that measure achievement, and can be prepped for. Years ago there was a controversy when SAT was advertised as an aptitude test, but after it was shown that it can be prepped for college board dropped that claim. You can look up yourself, but here is a sample page that talks about the history of SAT: https://blog.prepscholar.com/what-does-sat-stand-for

If you claim that CogAT can be prepped for and the effect is not just marginal, please provide a link to a study. I am sure there has been research into the topic of measuring innate ability.

Great! So MCPS can just offer SAT prep classes to all kids and they can all score 1500+! Oh, wait, they already do - it's called SCHOOL.

MCPS CO claims it's all unfair and it's just a money thing, tries to shove kids that are less qualified into Magnet programs versus the best-of-the-best, then whines when it doesn't work out - blaming parents, or poor people for not having money to pay for prep classes, or parents interfering with teachers - anyone but themselves. It's disgusting and the majority of the Central Office, to include the Sup, need to be fired.

+1 million

Such a dysfunctional system.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The lottery brought in a lot of undeserving kids into the middle school magnet programs at the expense of kids who were at the 99th percentile in MAP. Kids who would have presumably also done very well in COGAT. The lottery has diluted the quality of the magnet under the guise of diversity. Bring COGAT or some other objective testing method back.

Not necessarily. MAP tests content knowledge, not intelligence.

Same with CogAT. Very easy to prep for like SATs.

Who in their right mind preps for COGAT? We didn't even know what it is.

All I know is a third of TJ's class a few years back came from one single prep center and in years past, there were several well-known tutors locally for CogAT. I think the going rate was $150/hour. I know just taking a few practice tests helped my child improve their score by over 20%.

I looked, but couldn't find that news article? If you're not lying, please provide the link.

Curie took an ad out in the paper listing the names of their students who were accepted a few years ago. It was around 30% of the entering class. This has been well covered.

I remember a werbsite from a few years ago that listed the names of the students they got over the hurdle. It was a big selling point. Dr. somebody?

This discussion seems pretty whacky, because ...

TJ did not use CogAT - they had their own test.

Also, any process that includes CogAT is way better than a process that does not. Why? It is an aptitude test, that even if you prep for it, the improvement is at the margins. It is unlike tests like SAT that measure achievement, and can be prepped for. Years ago there was a controversy when SAT was advertised as an aptitude test, but after it was shown that it can be prepped for college board dropped that claim. You can look up yourself, but here is a sample page that talks about the history of SAT: https://blog.prepscholar.com/what-does-sat-stand-for

If you claim that CogAT can be prepped for and the effect is not just marginal, please provide a link to a study. I am sure there has been research into the topic of measuring innate ability.

Great! So MCPS can just offer SAT prep classes to all kids and they can all score 1500+! Oh, wait, they already do - it's called SCHOOL.

MCPS CO claims it's all unfair and it's just a money thing, tries to shove kids that are less qualified into Magnet programs versus the best-of-the-best, then whines when it doesn't work out - blaming parents, or poor people for not having money to pay for prep classes, or parents interfering with teachers - anyone but themselves. It's disgusting and the majority of the Central Office, to include the Sup, need to be fired.

The problem is not that there are less-qualified students getting into magnets but that there aren't enough magnet seats (or local-programming true equivalents) in the first place. Far more kids can benefit from the kinds of curricula/teaching approaches offered in magnet programs than ever have been offered a seat. It doesn't need to be only those that can get straight As while doing so or Real Genius types.

Anonymous wrote:Magnet programs were (15 years ago, before AEI ruined the program) supposed to be for the kids that surpassed CES-level work that the school couldn't provide. I'm not sure that's true anymore.

It's true that Magnet programs may have Linear Algebra or Robotics at HS, but there are programs at other HS to take that as well. Anyone supplementing with tutors can take it off-books at an after-school programs. MCPS has no control over that. The one thing positive MCPS did these past two years is offer on-line tutoring to all students. Not sure who used it, but it was the only positive step in the right direction.

MCPS could take a class at each school and change the curriculum at that school in clusters of 25-30 students. They could do that without much trouble. Field trips, special subjects, specialized supplies, etc. would be the main difference that need to be funded, and doesn't cost that much. I think is already done at W school ES/MS feeders, where the majority of students are in CES programs.

But MCPS won't do it. Having control over a limited number of trophy slots is the only way to push personal or social agendas by MCPS CO staff. I believe this is why the Magnets are physically located in remote corners of the county that are less accessible for everyone not already living there, ex. Poolesville and Silver Spring.

But it doesn't matter much anyway. I think the more MCPS tinkers with the Magnets, the more watered down they become. Parents of top students will keep tutoring or supplementing anyway, the overall reputation of Magnet will diminish over time.

The end result is that chokehold will backfire on the CO. The FARMS demographic groups will be pushed further and further away from 'equity' all thanks to the MCPS CO.

While I think that some of the conclusions may hold (the approach backfiring on equity, likely watering down of programs, possibility that less-appropriate agendas are influencing the approach, tutoring available to all being good), I think that some of the thoughts may have presented in a confusing way.

Perhaps you are talking about HS magnets on one hand and ES/MS on the other. MS & HS magnet programs might have drawn from CES/HGC populations more prevalently in the past than today, but they should be available to anyone, as gifted ability/need can develop at a later age for some than for others.

Centers for Enriched Studies are the elementary magnets, so talking about magnets being for those who have surpassed CES might only make sense in the MS/HS regard, and it shouldn't really be so (see above). These used to be called Highly Gifted Centers, with more of an idea of an entirely separate cohort across all subjects, though current CES implementations may effectively do the same. While some areas of the county have more children who might benefit from magnets (debatable, though I'd definitely grant that there very likely are more who might be prepared for them at the outset), there are just about the same percentage of seats vs. population covered available to one area as to others (with noteable local-only exceptions like Stonegate ES and the local-catchment reservations at the criteria-based MS magnets -- these I find inappropriate). Whether CES-type instruction is given more prevalently at the local school in one area vs. another is unclear, but, again, I wouldn't be surprised if this were the case (again, if that means a difference in what is available to one student vs. another based solely on the location of their home, I find that inappropriate).

Changing the curriculum and providing the necessary finding/supports, especially for one group, is a much harder challenge than suggested. Ensuring equal access to any across the county who demonstrate need would simply be one factor, there.

Magnet programs were (15 years ago, before AEI ruined the program) supposed to be for the kids that surpassed CES-level work that the school couldn't provide. I'm not sure that's true anymore.

It's true that Magnet programs may have Linear Algebra or Robotics at HS, but there are programs at other HS to take that as well. Anyone supplementing with tutors can take it off-books at an after-school programs. MCPS has no control over that. The one thing positive MCPS did these past two years is offer on-line tutoring to all students. Not sure who used it, but it was the only positive step in the right direction.

MCPS could take a class at each school and change the curriculum at that school in clusters of 25-30 students. They could do that without much trouble. Field trips, special subjects, specialized supplies, etc. would be the main difference that need to be funded, and doesn't cost that much. I think is already done at W school ES/MS feeders, where the majority of students are in CES programs.

But MCPS won't do it. Having control over a limited number of trophy slots is the only way to push personal or social agendas by MCPS CO staff. I believe this is why the Magnets are physically located in remote corners of the county that are less accessible for everyone not already living there, ex. Poolesville and Silver Spring.

But it doesn't matter much anyway. I think the more MCPS tinkers with the Magnets, the more watered down they become. Parents of top students will keep tutoring or supplementing anyway, the overall reputation of Magnet will diminish over time.

The end result is that chokehold will backfire on the CO. The FARMS demographic groups will be pushed further and further away from 'equity' all thanks to the MCPS CO.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The lottery brought in a lot of undeserving kids into the middle school magnet programs at the expense of kids who were at the 99th percentile in MAP. Kids who would have presumably also done very well in COGAT. The lottery has diluted the quality of the magnet under the guise of diversity. Bring COGAT or some other objective testing method back.

Not necessarily. MAP tests content knowledge, not intelligence.

Same with CogAT. Very easy to prep for like SATs.

Who in their right mind preps for COGAT? We didn't even know what it is.

All I know is a third of TJ's class a few years back came from one single prep center and in years past, there were several well-known tutors locally for CogAT. I think the going rate was $150/hour. I know just taking a few practice tests helped my child improve their score by over 20%.

I looked, but couldn't find that news article? If you're not lying, please provide the link.

Curie took an ad out in the paper listing the names of their students who were accepted a few years ago. It was around 30% of the entering class. This has been well covered.

I remember a werbsite from a few years ago that listed the names of the students they got over the hurdle. It was a big selling point. Dr. somebody?

This discussion seems pretty whacky, because ...

TJ did not use CogAT - they had their own test.

Also, any process that includes CogAT is way better than a process that does not. Why? It is an aptitude test, that even if you prep for it, the improvement is at the margins. It is unlike tests like SAT that measure achievement, and can be prepped for. Years ago there was a controversy when SAT was advertised as an aptitude test, but after it was shown that it can be prepped for college board dropped that claim. You can look up yourself, but here is a sample page that talks about the history of SAT: https://blog.prepscholar.com/what-does-sat-stand-for

If you claim that CogAT can be prepped for and the effect is not just marginal, please provide a link to a study. I am sure there has been research into the topic of measuring innate ability.

Great! So MCPS can just offer SAT prep classes to all kids and they can all score 1500+! Oh, wait, they already do - it's called SCHOOL.

MCPS CO claims it's all unfair and it's just a money thing, tries to shove kids that are less qualified into Magnet programs versus the best-of-the-best, then whines when it doesn't work out - blaming parents, or poor people for not having money to pay for prep classes, or parents interfering with teachers - anyone but themselves. It's disgusting and the majority of the Central Office, to include the Sup, need to be fired.