This thread makes me want to go take a shower. Despite SAM2's efforts.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's my question. Virtually every competitive college I look at says that 95% of their freshman class is in the top 10% coming out of high school. My child's school, Sidwell, does not rank kids, though I suspect colleges can judge on their own. My child takes the most challenging classes, but he may not end up in the top 10% simply because the school is filled with smart kids. Do schools like Sidwell Or TJ for that matter have good luck placing kids outside the top 10%? My child scores exceptionally well on SAT-like tests, so we expect good things on the PSAT, SAT, etc....

This is the certainly a challenge isn't it. I understand this year's senior class had a particularly unscuccessful college placement year for some of these reasons. I know a number of families in the class who were disappointed (and whose expectations for college were not unreasonable for their very bright, very high scoring kids).

As this is the subject of the thread, it would be great to get back on track, if you feel you can share info without identifying any of the kids.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TJ is the tops. Other schools are sending 1 , 2, 3, maybe 6 kids to Harvard every year? Try 12-20 from TJ admitted. (Ditto for Stanford, MIT, etc.) Don't kid yourselves, if you can get into and excel at TJ, it blows away the top 3 for college placement.

The obvious issue is that you need to live in nova for TJ. The other issue is that in some years a top dc private may send as many as 10 to harvard. Proportionately on par or higher than TJ

Proportionately more legacies and rich and connected families, too.

Also, many kids from TJ would prefer MIT or Caltech to Harvard - instead I'd like to see a comparison for MIT and Harvard.

But exactly what point are you trying to make? I hope we've left the discussion of smart private/dumb public, and are now back to the issue of whether private is worth it for the exmissions. But I can't tell.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's my question. Virtually every competitive college I look at says that 95% of their freshman class is in the top 10% coming out of high school. My child's school, Sidwell, does not rank kids, though I suspect colleges can judge on their own. My child takes the most challenging classes, but he may not end up in the top 10% simply because the school is filled with smart kids. Do schools like Sidwell Or TJ for that matter have good luck placing kids outside the top 10%? My child scores exceptionally well on SAT-like tests, so we expect good things on the PSAT, SAT, etc....

This is the certainly a challenge isn't it. I understand this year's senior class had a particularly unscuccessful college placement year for some of these reasons. I know a number of families in the class who were disappointed (and whose expectations for college were not unreasonable for their very bright, very high scoring kids).

This is the fear, isn't it, that even the top 10% of a class are shut out of the most sought-after college, as happened this year to the senior class? It wasn't even an issue of some kid's not making the top 10%; no one got in. It was just a weak class.

Anonymous wrote:Here's my question. Virtually every competitive college I look at says that 95% of their freshman class is in the top 10% coming out of high school. My child's school, Sidwell, does not rank kids, though I suspect colleges can judge on their own. My child takes the most challenging classes, but he may not end up in the top 10% simply because the school is filled with smart kids. Do schools like Sidwell Or TJ for that matter have good luck placing kids outside the top 10%? My child scores exceptionally well on SAT-like tests, so we expect good things on the PSAT, SAT, etc....

This is the certainly a challenge isn't it. I understand this year's senior class had a particularly unscuccessful college placement year for some of these reasons. I know a number of families in the class who were disappointed (and whose expectations for college were not unreasonable for their very bright, very high scoring kids).

Here's my question. Virtually every competitive college I look at says that 95% of their freshman class is in the top 10% coming out of high school. My child's school, Sidwell, does not rank kids, though I suspect colleges can judge on their own. My child takes the most challenging classes, but he may not end up in the top 10% simply because the school is filled with smart kids. Do schools like Sidwell Or TJ for that matter have good luck placing kids outside the top 10%? My child scores exceptionally well on SAT-like tests, so we expect good things on the PSAT, SAT, etc....

Anonymous wrote:TJ is the tops. Other schools are sending 1 , 2, 3, maybe 6 kids to Harvard every year? Try 12-20 from TJ admitted. (Ditto for Stanford, MIT, etc.) Don't kid yourselves, if you can get into and excel at TJ, it blows away the top 3 for college placement.

The obvious issue is that you need to live in nova for TJ. The other issue is that in some years a top dc private may send as many as 10 to harvard. Proportionately on par or higher than TJ

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TJ is the tops. Other schools are sending 1 , 2, 3, maybe 6 kids to Harvard every year? Try 12-20 from TJ admitted. (Ditto for Stanford, MIT, etc.) Don't kid yourselves, if you can get into and excel at TJ, it blows away the top 3 for college placement.

Blair had 53 national merit scholarship finalists last year, in a class of what, 700? That's 1 in every 14 kids. How many privates can say that, even after all the Kaplan classes? Richard Montgomery had 28, in a class of 500, which is about 6%. And as a PP said, many of the kids in these schools don't intend to go to college and didn't take the SATs. These schools also have Harvard admits, although not as many as TJ.

STA/NCS/Sidwell routinely top 10% for NMSFs. See the chart that you can find under SAM2's private school admissions stickies. If I recall, TJ tops 20%, which is stunning. They only admit in 9th grade, which helps, and of course don't do the legacy or jock admit thing. They are re-focusing on math/science though so it wouldn't really fit for the smart humanities only kid.

it's true that the comparison of TJ to Sidwell/NCS is s bit unfair, for the reasons you've described. But it's also true that it's unfair to compare Sidwell/NCS to publics, which everybody here keeps doing, for the same reasons. Probably 100% of Sidwell/NCS kids take the SATs and go to college, while many don't at public. Like PPs have said above, it's a cohort issue. You need to make the comparison with the honors/AP/IB kids at publics, who are the peer group you kid would be taking classes with. (Not that the non-college kids are dumb, either, they just don't take the SATs and this lowers the pct of NMSSF in the class.)

But I'm out of here. The whole line of thinking being developed here, that private kids are smarter than public kids, is repugnant to me. Carry on as you were.

Thanks, SAM2 for your good work in once again trying to give some relevant data to the normal DCUM craziness.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TJ is the tops. Other schools are sending 1 , 2, 3, maybe 6 kids to Harvard every year? Try 12-20 from TJ admitted. (Ditto for Stanford, MIT, etc.) Don't kid yourselves, if you can get into and excel at TJ, it blows away the top 3 for college placement.

Blair had 53 national merit scholarship finalists last year, in a class of what, 700? That's 1 in every 14 kids. How many privates can say that, even after all the Kaplan classes? Richard Montgomery had 28, in a class of 500, which is about 6%. And as a PP said, many of the kids in these schools don't intend to go to college and didn't take the SATs. These schools also have Harvard admits, although not as many as TJ.

STA/NCS/Sidwell routinely top 10% for NMSFs. See the chart that you can find under SAM2's private school admissions stickies. If I recall, TJ tops 20%, which is stunning. They only admit in 9th grade, which helps, and of course don't do the legacy or jock admit thing. They are re-focusing on math/science though so it wouldn't really fit for the smart humanities only kid.

Anonymous wrote:From some of the literature I've read, like the Price of Admission, I got the impression that there weren't all that many slots left after all the legacies (15-20% of the class), diversity, wealth, and athletics. Maybe 30-40% of the class was available to non-priority students .... How does this translate into a given non-priority kid's chances at an elite school?

It seems like the discussion on this thread has moved in a different direction. For anyone who is still interested in data on which priority groups get admitted to top colleges and how many slots are available for non-priority applicants, here are a few links I'd recommend.

Here are links to two excellent articles from Thomas Espenshade: http://fwd4.me/OFj and http://fwd4.me/P8d . If I recall correctly, "Price of Admission" relies pretty heavily on Espenshade's research for the sections that discuss data (as opposed to the sections where Golden relays dramatic anecdotes about particular students that bought their way into college). Espenshade's final conclusion in the second article is that although many people get very agitated about the fear that priority applicants (legacy/athlete/diversity) might be unfairly claiming a disproportionate share of admission slots at top colleges, the actual data shows that there really aren't very many of those priority applicants, so the admission preferences they get don't actually have much impact on non-priority applicants. The table at pages 299-300 does a nice job at showing what the impact of removing those priority preferences would be.

Here is a thread I've been using as a repository for this sort of info as I come across it: http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/73599.page

Maybe some others will find this as interesting as I do. If anyone finds other good studies, I'd really appreciate it if you'd PM me a link.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read all the posts but I'm curious...why and how does legacy or athletic ability matter in the long run? Legacy or athletic ability might get you into an Ivy but to stay there and after graduation to be able to apply the skills you learned into a lucrative or rewarding career is the real test isn't it? I knew a kid whose parents got him into Dartmouth Engineering program. But he floundered when he got there and he's struggling to graduate.

What do legacy and athletic admits have to do with engineering? Most of those broholes at DS's SS school don't take the hard math/science courses.

That's a gross generalization. At my DS's SS school the advanced math and science courses are full of Ivy legacies. That's not to say that all legacies take those courses, but the academic high-flyers among the legacies do.

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read all the posts but I'm curious...why and how does legacy or athletic ability matter in the long run? Legacy or athletic ability might get you into an Ivy but to stay there and after graduation to be able to apply the skills you learned into a lucrative or rewarding career is the real test isn't it? I knew a kid whose parents got him into Dartmouth Engineering program. But he floundered when he got there and he's struggling to graduate.

I think it is still true that admission to the AB program at the Thayer school is just part of regular Dartmouth admissions. Admission to the BE program is different but basically you have to be doing a 3-2 program or have already graduated from college.

It is not unusual for kids to struggle in engineering programs. I know a lot of people who started there and then switched. Doesn't mean the kid wont succeed later in life. And frankly having a Dartmouth degree won't hurt him.