Anonymous
Post 07/07/2023 09:37     Subject: swimming up someone nvsl
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:We are in a division two pool and this discussion was brought up by some parents because they were seeding younger faster kids to grab points.

The parents of the slower older kids thought their swimmers had a right because of their age.

The majority of the team say it is a sport and you play to win. If you have some speedsters you use them to your advantage. The A meets are supposed to be a competition and that means it teaches lessons. Summer swim has all the fun stuff as well and B meets where everyone swims. So it is all worlds.


I’m at a d2 pool that does this and I guarantee the majority of the team doesn’t like this. Would love an open vote. Of course some do. But no one has ever asked me about it. And my kid doesn’t lose a spot. But I see how it affects those that do


But it’s probably up also why you guys are D2.

This. You’re a D2 pool because you win a lot, and part of how you do that is strategy rather than just rolling out the fastest kids in order for each event in each age group. You’re a D2 pool on the backs of your fastest swimmers, not the average 13 year old.


Choose a D15 pool if you don't want competitive. Seriously. You are members of a D2 pool, how do you think that happens? With a competitive strategy. There are a lot of mid-range teams that could do a lot better if they actually seeded correctly based on times.

The reason NVSL doesn't allow swim ups for Relay Carnival and divisionals is because those are the only events that lock in age groups and rate them against their peers. It is not a requirement for dual meets which should be all about seeding strategy.
Anonymous
Post 07/07/2023 09:34     Subject: swimming up someone nvsl
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:We are in a division two pool and this discussion was brought up by some parents because they were seeding younger faster kids to grab points.

The parents of the slower older kids thought their swimmers had a right because of their age.

The majority of the team say it is a sport and you play to win. If you have some speedsters you use them to your advantage. The A meets are supposed to be a competition and that means it teaches lessons. Summer swim has all the fun stuff as well and B meets where everyone swims. So it is all worlds.


I’m at a d2 pool that does this and I guarantee the majority of the team doesn’t like this. Would love an open vote. Of course some do. But no one has ever asked me about it. And my kid doesn’t lose a spot. But I see how it affects those that do


But it’s probably up also why you guys are D2.


It probably is why they are D2.
Anonymous
Post 07/07/2023 09:13     Subject: swimming up someone nvsl
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:We are in a division two pool and this discussion was brought up by some parents because they were seeding younger faster kids to grab points.

The parents of the slower older kids thought their swimmers had a right because of their age.

The majority of the team say it is a sport and you play to win. If you have some speedsters you use them to your advantage. The A meets are supposed to be a competition and that means it teaches lessons. Summer swim has all the fun stuff as well and B meets where everyone swims. So it is all worlds.


I’m at a d2 pool that does this and I guarantee the majority of the team doesn’t like this. Would love an open vote. Of course some do. But no one has ever asked me about it. And my kid doesn’t lose a spot. But I see how it affects those that do


But it’s probably up also why you guys are D2.

This. You’re a D2 pool because you win a lot, and part of how you do that is strategy rather than just rolling out the fastest kids in order for each event in each age group. You’re a D2 pool on the backs of your fastest swimmers, not the average 13 year old.
Anonymous
Post 07/07/2023 09:09     Subject: swimming up someone nvsl
I’m in favor of swimming up if it increases the odds of winning, otherwise no. And yes, it’s most likely to happen in the middle age groups in higher divisions. The kids are old enough ti get it. Win the meet. Work on your times and team building the rest of the week.
Anonymous
Post 07/07/2023 09:08     Subject: swimming up someone nvsl
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:We are in a division two pool and this discussion was brought up by some parents because they were seeding younger faster kids to grab points.

The parents of the slower older kids thought their swimmers had a right because of their age.

The majority of the team say it is a sport and you play to win. If you have some speedsters you use them to your advantage. The A meets are supposed to be a competition and that means it teaches lessons. Summer swim has all the fun stuff as well and B meets where everyone swims. So it is all worlds.


I’m at a d2 pool that does this and I guarantee the majority of the team doesn’t like this. Would love an open vote. Of course some do. But no one has ever asked me about it. And my kid doesn’t lose a spot. But I see how it affects those that do


But it’s probably up also why you guys are D2.
Anonymous
Post 07/07/2023 08:38     Subject: swimming up someone nvsl
Anonymous wrote:We are in a division two pool and this discussion was brought up by some parents because they were seeding younger faster kids to grab points.

The parents of the slower older kids thought their swimmers had a right because of their age.

The majority of the team say it is a sport and you play to win. If you have some speedsters you use them to your advantage. The A meets are supposed to be a competition and that means it teaches lessons. Summer swim has all the fun stuff as well and B meets where everyone swims. So it is all worlds.


I’m at a d2 pool that does this and I guarantee the majority of the team doesn’t like this. Would love an open vote. Of course some do. But no one has ever asked me about it. And my kid doesn’t lose a spot. But I see how it affects those that do
Anonymous
Post 07/07/2023 08:16     Subject: swimming up someone nvsl
In the mid level divisions this doesn't happen. Younger kids only swim up if it means they can get an empty lane that wouldn't be filled.
Anonymous
Post 07/07/2023 07:07     Subject: swimming up someone nvsl
We are in a division two pool and this discussion was brought up by some parents because they were seeding younger faster kids to grab points.

The parents of the slower older kids thought their swimmers had a right because of their age.

The majority of the team say it is a sport and you play to win. If you have some speedsters you use them to your advantage. The A meets are supposed to be a competition and that means it teaches lessons. Summer swim has all the fun stuff as well and B meets where everyone swims. So it is all worlds.
Anonymous
Post 07/07/2023 06:52     Subject: swimming up someone nvsl
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
But the younger kid would swim in their own age group. I hate the idea of bumping a teenager to give their spot to a 12 year old.


"You play to win the game! You don't just play to play"

Swim the faster swimmer. Period. If your kid doesn't get to swim tell them to get faster. It's a great life lesson to learn.


It's not the Olympic, crazy swimming mom.


ABOUT NORTHERN VIRGINIA SWIMMING LEAGUE
The Northern Virginia Swimming League was founded in 1956 to sponsor competitive swimming and diving in and among the community swimming pools in that area of Northern Virginia contiguous to the District of Columbia, and to develop in the children participating in this program--
A love for the sport, advanced aquatic skills, teamwork, and the principles of good sportsmanship.


Then why hold dual scores meets? Why have points at all or divisions? Serious question.




To foster love for the sport, teach teamwork and instill the principles of good sportsmanship.


Anonymous wrote:

Hold non-scored meets and swim everyone.



That's what the B meets are for!



But the dumb poster quoting the NVSL missed the word COMPETITION (swim the fastest, use strategy, try to win, there is no I in TEAM) but still wants to protect the slower swimming age group from the faster kids. That is a B meet plain and simple. You cannot have it both ways. You can't want your kid to swim in the competitive A meet but not have it competitive so your kid gets a chance. The A meet is for the kids who are the fastest regardless of age. Most teams don't have enough kids to swim up and are stuck within age groups. To be able to swim kids up and take points is a great problem for a team.
Anonymous
Post 07/06/2023 21:11     Subject: swimming up someone nvsl
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
But the younger kid would swim in their own age group. I hate the idea of bumping a teenager to give their spot to a 12 year old.


"You play to win the game! You don't just play to play"

Swim the faster swimmer. Period. If your kid doesn't get to swim tell them to get faster. It's a great life lesson to learn.


My kid is the faster swimmer, and would absolutely hate being made to swim up. Her older teammates would be mad they didn't get to swim as much, and the same age teammates would be mad their relay got weaker. There are age groups for a reason!


Some teams teams swim up kids on relays to gain an advantage in Saturday meets too. For example, a team with one really strong 11-12 swimmer might know going in that barring a DQ they will lose the 11-12 relay, but calculate that they might be close in the 13-14 relay with the addition of the strong 11-12 swimmer (who would in turn bump the weakest link on the 13-14 relay). By swimming up that swimmer, the team improves their chances of winning one of those relays which is a favorable outcome relative to not giving yourself the best chance and losing both events. It's a team competition after all, so there's no need to hold "spots" for slower swimmers only to weaken the team's chances of winning.

In the individual events, it only makes sense to swim up a swimmer who might "bump" someone else when that swimmer is likely to win their own age group by a wide enough margin to be competitive in the older age group and someone else in the lower age group can still earn the points the strongest swimmer would have scored. Again, if it helps the team score more points, I see no problem with it. If older kids don't like it, they should swim faster than the kids who are coming up to take their place in the older age groups anyway. (By 15-18, kids who were separated into 11-12 and 13-14 are all in the same age group.)



This is really just too much goofy rigamarole for summer swim.


It's really not that complicated. If I can figure it out as a casual observer, I'm sure any competent coach is familiar with these strategies and most coaches won't hesitate to employ these tactics when one of their age groups is weak relative to one immediately below.
Anonymous
Post 07/06/2023 21:09     Subject: Re:swimming up someone nvsl
The best part of this thread? There is another thread still on page one where someone else is complaining that their kid is getting bumped by a slower swimmer.

Swim the fastest kid. This isn't hard.

If your kid is getting bumped by a younger kid that is faster tell them to work harder. It will be great life lesson.
Anonymous
Post 07/06/2023 20:59     Subject: swimming up someone nvsl
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
But the younger kid would swim in their own age group. I hate the idea of bumping a teenager to give their spot to a 12 year old.


"You play to win the game! You don't just play to play"

Swim the faster swimmer. Period. If your kid doesn't get to swim tell them to get faster. It's a great life lesson to learn.


It's not the Olympic, crazy swimming mom.


ABOUT NORTHERN VIRGINIA SWIMMING LEAGUE
The Northern Virginia Swimming League was founded in 1956 to sponsor competitive swimming and diving in and among the community swimming pools in that area of Northern Virginia contiguous to the District of Columbia, and to develop in the children participating in this program--
A love for the sport, advanced aquatic skills, teamwork, and the principles of good sportsmanship.


Then why hold dual scores meets? Why have points at all or divisions? Serious question.




To foster love for the sport, teach teamwork and instill the principles of good sportsmanship.


Anonymous wrote:

Hold non-scored meets and swim everyone.



That's what the B meets are for!

Anonymous
Post 07/06/2023 20:52     Subject: swimming up someone nvsl
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
But the younger kid would swim in their own age group. I hate the idea of bumping a teenager to give their spot to a 12 year old.


"You play to win the game! You don't just play to play"

Swim the faster swimmer. Period. If your kid doesn't get to swim tell them to get faster. It's a great life lesson to learn.


My kid is the faster swimmer, and would absolutely hate being made to swim up. Her older teammates would be mad they didn't get to swim as much, and the same age teammates would be mad their relay got weaker. There are age groups for a reason!


Some teams teams swim up kids on relays to gain an advantage in Saturday meets too. For example, a team with one really strong 11-12 swimmer might know going in that barring a DQ they will lose the 11-12 relay, but calculate that they might be close in the 13-14 relay with the addition of the strong 11-12 swimmer (who would in turn bump the weakest link on the 13-14 relay). By swimming up that swimmer, the team improves their chances of winning one of those relays which is a favorable outcome relative to not giving yourself the best chance and losing both events. It's a team competition after all, so there's no need to hold "spots" for slower swimmers only to weaken the team's chances of winning.

In the individual events, it only makes sense to swim up a swimmer who might "bump" someone else when that swimmer is likely to win their own age group by a wide enough margin to be competitive in the older age group and someone else in the lower age group can still earn the points the strongest swimmer would have scored. Again, if it helps the team score more points, I see no problem with it. If older kids don't like it, they should swim faster than the kids who are coming up to take their place in the older age groups anyway. (By 15-18, kids who were separated into 11-12 and 13-14 are all in the same age group.)



This is really just too much goofy rigamarole for summer swim.
Anonymous
Post 07/06/2023 20:22     Subject: swimming up someone nvsl
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
But the younger kid would swim in their own age group. I hate the idea of bumping a teenager to give their spot to a 12 year old.


"You play to win the game! You don't just play to play"

Swim the faster swimmer. Period. If your kid doesn't get to swim tell them to get faster. It's a great life lesson to learn.


It's not the Olympic, crazy swimming mom.


ABOUT NORTHERN VIRGINIA SWIMMING LEAGUE
The Northern Virginia Swimming League was founded in 1956 to sponsor competitive swimming and diving in and among the community swimming pools in that area of Northern Virginia contiguous to the District of Columbia, and to develop in the children participating in this program--
A love for the sport, advanced aquatic skills, teamwork, and the principles of good sportsmanship.


Then why hold dual scores meets? Why have points at all or divisions? Serious question.

Hold non-scored meets and swim everyone.







No, it is just that they should swim their age. That is fair. It is summer swim, not NCAP 2.0.


So if you have 4 really fast 12 year breaststrokers, and 2 competitive 13-14 year breaststrokers, and then a bunch who are slower than the 4 fast 12 year olds you think the slower 13-14 year olds should swim over the 4th 12 year old (keep in mind 4th 12 year old isn't swimming unless she swims up.) Swim the fastest kids.
Anonymous
Post 07/06/2023 18:25     Subject: swimming up someone nvsl
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
But the younger kid would swim in their own age group. I hate the idea of bumping a teenager to give their spot to a 12 year old.


"You play to win the game! You don't just play to play"

Swim the faster swimmer. Period. If your kid doesn't get to swim tell them to get faster. It's a great life lesson to learn.


My kid is the faster swimmer, and would absolutely hate being made to swim up. Her older teammates would be mad they didn't get to swim as much, and the same age teammates would be mad their relay got weaker. There are age groups for a reason!


Some teams teams swim up kids on relays to gain an advantage in Saturday meets too. For example, a team with one really strong 11-12 swimmer might know going in that barring a DQ they will lose the 11-12 relay, but calculate that they might be close in the 13-14 relay with the addition of the strong 11-12 swimmer (who would in turn bump the weakest link on the 13-14 relay). By swimming up that swimmer, the team improves their chances of winning one of those relays which is a favorable outcome relative to not giving yourself the best chance and losing both events. It's a team competition after all, so there's no need to hold "spots" for slower swimmers only to weaken the team's chances of winning.

In the individual events, it only makes sense to swim up a swimmer who might "bump" someone else when that swimmer is likely to win their own age group by a wide enough margin to be competitive in the older age group and someone else in the lower age group can still earn the points the strongest swimmer would have scored. Again, if it helps the team score more points, I see no problem with it. If older kids don't like it, they should swim faster than the kids who are coming up to take their place in the older age groups anyway. (By 15-18, kids who were separated into 11-12 and 13-14 are all in the same age group.)