Anonymous wrote:Also it's unclear to me whether

A. therapy causes people to alienate their social connections/family, or
B. Individuals with mental health issues that are not receiving effective treatment may tend to alienate people and happen to use "therapy talk" to justify it

There is also the option of:

C. some people genuinely have abusive/dysfunctional family or other loved ones and need to separate from them for their own well-being.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s a low barrier to entry for “therapists” and very hard to find a good one. Good ones are often booked up too. I have been in therapy on and off for real traumas. It’s very helpful but on the other hand I think “therapy talk” is generally rude and offensive. Like I’m observing my boundaries by being a b***h to you.

+1

There are some separate issues here:
- Some therapists are not great
- "Therapy talk" is part of our culture and some people use it to justify horrible behavior. I don't think this is a new insight from Bustle - I've seen this phenomenon parodied on TV shows. Some people that do this may be doing so because they are in therapy. I suspect most just use terms like self care and setting boundaries in problematic ways because it's part of our culture and they've heard it from their friends/social media

Agree. The problem is that there ARE actually people for whom "therapy speak" is actually functional, valuable information that helps them to overcome trauma and dysfunction.

I am uncomfortable with the attitude on this thread (and also often on DCUM generally) that everyone who talks about trauma or stuff like setting boundaries, being gaslit, etc., is simply being selfish and dramatic and using these terms to mistreat others. This does happen, but also, some people are actually overcoming abuse and severe dysfunction and genuinely need these things to help them through it.

Dismissing everyone because SOME people misuse and abuse these terms is not great because it's unlikely to dissuade the peopel using these terms for selfish reasons, and can really harm people who are actually trying to heal and become more functional.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do think there's a level of introspection that's unhealthy. I see it most in younger adults who don't have children yet. I even felt it in myself in my 20s. I felt untethered and had too much time to myself.

Now that I'm a parent it seems unreal to me how some young adults can cut off their parents for such minor things. Like a video I watched recently of a woman blaming her mom (always the mom...) for making her a people pleaser and saying that it was a trauma response. At some point you have to realize that your parents did the best they could do (absent REAL trauma like the ACE indicators) and everyone deserves grace.

The bolded is part of growing up. You are confused and anxious for a while and then you figure it out. It's a phase.

Unfortunately some people get stuck in it.

To be fair, I think sometimes the people who get stuck in it do so because their problems are more severe. So to use the example PP provided, lots of women grow up as people-pleasers because of the way they were raised, often with gendered expectations, and it's normal to feel frustrated by that programming when you become and adult and push back against it.

But smaller percentage of women (and men) develop severe people pleasing behaviors because they grew up in actually abusive homes where they had to walk on eggshells to avoid being physically or emotionally abused, or to convince their parents to engage in basic, non-neglect levels of parenting.

For the first group, it should be enough to recognize their parents did the best they could, look to improve in their own adulthood and as parents, and move on.

For the second group, their "people pleasing" is legitimately a trauma response, can be hard to de-program (because if you learned to people please in order to avoid being hit, or in order to help your bipolar parent stay functional enough to keep you safe, it is terrifying to stop), and they deserve empathy for working at it. And the parents they are cutting off may be genuinely abusive.

I guess it's possible for someone in the first group to try to act like they are in the second group, but if so, I assume they have big issues because why would you want to claim your parents were abusive? Why would you want to live as though you'd been abused and neglected as a child -- that's hard and horrible.

So as a rule, I try to give peopel the benefit of the doubt. If they say they were abused as a kid, I believe them. Because, again, why would you lie about this? Also, abuse victims are constantly told they are being dramatic, it wasn't that bad, and they should "get over it". So why be one more person saying this? Just accept that's their experience and they will deal with it as they need to.

(I was physically and verbally abused, and emotionally neglected, as a child, and I have not cut off my parents and actually have a pretty decent and empathetic relationship with them, all things considered, but I have empathy for people who decide that's what they need to do to recover.)

Also it's unclear to me whether

A. therapy causes people to alienate their social connections/family, or
B. Individuals with mental health issues that are not receiving effective treatment may tend to alienate people and happen to use "therapy talk" to justify it

Anonymous wrote:There’s a low barrier to entry for “therapists” and very hard to find a good one. Good ones are often booked up too. I have been in therapy on and off for real traumas. It’s very helpful but on the other hand I think “therapy talk” is generally rude and offensive. Like I’m observing my boundaries by being a b***h to you.

+1

There are some separate issues here:
- Some therapists are not great
- "Therapy talk" is part of our culture and some people use it to justify horrible behavior. I don't think this is a new insight from Bustle - I've seen this phenomenon parodied on TV shows. Some people that do this may be doing so because they are in therapy. I suspect most just use terms like self care and setting boundaries in problematic ways because it's part of our culture and they've heard it from their friends/social media

There’s a low barrier to entry for “therapists” and very hard to find a good one. Good ones are often booked up too. I have been in therapy on and off for real traumas. It’s very helpful but on the other hand I think “therapy talk” is generally rude and offensive. Like I’m observing my boundaries by being a b***h to you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes! Thank you for bringing this up, op. Both siblings have been to therapy and both are estranged from my mom and me. Both have very high standards for others and lower standards for them. They expect forgiveness for things they do but are very harsh against ANY thing you do or say even if your intentions were meant for good. For example, sending a gift to their child because you love them but they tell you that you are " love bombing"

My one sibling cut us off but my other sibling wants a fake relationship where she just tells us how wonderful life is but never wanting to discuss any problems to have a real relationship

It is very frustrating but I have had to let go because there is nothing I can do.

So you are the arbiter of what a “real” relationship is? How very interesting.

I can’t imagine anyone wanting to cut you off or keep you at arm’s length, when you have all the answers and know all about how to have a Real Relationship. There can’t at all be a problem with YOU!

Ok I knew someone would attack. Real relationship to me is telling how things are not just the good stuff. I am nowhere near perfect but it is freeing to tell family members who love you that yes Billy failed math or didn't get into the college he wanted. The only time my sibling communicates is when her child has done something amazing. She can't take any criticism and one time I said the leaves weren't as bright and she took it as an insult. She lives in Vermont and I had to keep telling her this was " the most beautiful leaves" the most amazing soup she made etc.

So the sibling is afraid of intimacy and even when I apologize she never accepts it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do think there's a level of introspection that's unhealthy. I see it most in younger adults who don't have children yet. I even felt it in myself in my 20s. I felt untethered and had too much time to myself.

Now that I'm a parent it seems unreal to me how some young adults can cut off their parents for such minor things. Like a video I watched recently of a woman blaming her mom (always the mom...) for making her a people pleaser and saying that it was a trauma response. At some point you have to realize that your parents did the best they could do (absent REAL trauma like the ACE indicators) and everyone deserves grace.

Amen.

I just interviewed a young woman who referred to a bad work experience as “her trauma” . Can we stop calling every unpleasant experience a “trauma” and go back to teaching resiliency and empowerment? YOU decide how you react and YOU decide to give people power. YOU decide to move on. These kids have been told to marinate in their self-pity instead. it’s self-absorbed, unproductive, and unhelpful.

Yes! Please teach resiliency. I think schools have done a good job about teaching how to be kind, equal and to not bully. But it's gone a bit far. My dd told me that it's okay to not finish things and to just take time for yourself and to sit in a corner. What?! no. I told her life requires her to be brave and that we're all going to do things we don't want to do. We should always make our best effort. When you're in the middle of something hard, just keep going because you're likely almost done.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes! Thank you for bringing this up, op. Both siblings have been to therapy and both are estranged from my mom and me. Both have very high standards for others and lower standards for them. They expect forgiveness for things they do but are very harsh against ANY thing you do or say even if your intentions were meant for good. For example, sending a gift to their child because you love them but they tell you that you are " love bombing"

My one sibling cut us off but my other sibling wants a fake relationship where she just tells us how wonderful life is but never wanting to discuss any problems to have a real relationship

It is very frustrating but I have had to let go because there is nothing I can do.

Sounds very typical for someone who believes your mom (or you) is a narcissist and you are the “golden child.” There is an army of therapists and acolytes out there all pushing this same agenda of “boundaries” and having no insight into their own issues.

Funny thing is my mom loved us all but I was somewhat more 'difficult' and she had great relations with both and now I'm the only child who is accepting of her whole self..good bad and ugly as she is of me!

I'm a therapist, and I think this article is a fantastic indictment of a trend that has bothered me for a long time but which has become especially pervasive during/following the pandemic.

I hesitate to say anything negative about my client population because people on this board lose their sh*t about "judging patients" but the reality is that there are many people who enter a therapy space in a very self-indulgent way and use the skills they learn there to manipulate other people. My sister has done this in the past, and it's been really challenging for our relationship because it's hard for me to have patience with situations like the birthday dinner friend situation described in this article. That could totally have been my sister (the birthday girl OR the friend at various times in her 20s) and it could also have been 7 out of my current 36 active clients as well. That kind of thing happens all the time in my observation. I'm on a break right now, but later today, I have a session later this afternoon with a client whose brother has ghosted their parents with no explanation and left her to explain to them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, I’ve thought about this before in the context of “setting boundaries.” I think it’s overly simplistic for most human relationships to always put yourself first and draw unmovable lines. It’s not how we are inclined to interact with each other, so forcing it seems to mess things up in other ways.

In all the long-term studies of happiness, the biggest factor is the quality of your personal relationships. Like, it's very clear that having strong personal relationships throughout your life is the most reliable predictor of whether you will be happy.

But all the therapy-speak of "setting boundaries" and "grey-rocking" and "cutting off" anyone who you deem "toxic" or a "narcissist" (super-overused terms IMO) encourages people to drop their relationships in favor of focusing on their happiness. When it's clear that relationships are what make us happy long-term.

I get that in an abuse situation, the victim needs to cut off the abuser. And some people may be loners who do feel better with fewer interpersonal obligations and interactions. But cutting people off because they are too needy or pushy or opinionated or competitive (flaws! people have them) is just recipe to end up alone with no personal relationships. And for most people, that will make you unhappy.

Setting boundaries and grey rocking are used for people with patterns of very destructive behavior - not a one time perceived slight. I don’t know any therapists telling anyone to drop someone because of a misunderstanding or a minor character flaw. I work with women who are actually survivors of very serious abuse and having this language is not only beneficial, it’s necessary.

Anonymous wrote:Yes, I’ve thought about this before in the context of “setting boundaries.” I think it’s overly simplistic for most human relationships to always put yourself first and draw unmovable lines. It’s not how we are inclined to interact with each other, so forcing it seems to mess things up in other ways.

In all the long-term studies of happiness, the biggest factor is the quality of your personal relationships. Like, it's very clear that having strong personal relationships throughout your life is the most reliable predictor of whether you will be happy.

But all the therapy-speak of "setting boundaries" and "grey-rocking" and "cutting off" anyone who you deem "toxic" or a "narcissist" (super-overused terms IMO) encourages people to drop their relationships in favor of focusing on their happiness. When it's clear that relationships are what make us happy long-term.

I get that in an abuse situation, the victim needs to cut off the abuser. And some people may be loners who do feel better with fewer interpersonal obligations and interactions. But cutting people off because they are too needy or pushy or opinionated or competitive (flaws! people have them) is just recipe to end up alone with no personal relationships. And for most people, that will make you unhappy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Therapist here. Check your priviilege---it is far easier to maintain sound mental health when you are well resourced and have no genetic predisposition to or family history of mental illness and substance abuse. Many people are not so fortunate.

Some people live in houses with a sturdy foundation and solid materials and they don't need to hire professionals to make major repairs. Other people live in cheaply built homes (genetic predisposition to mental illness/substance abuse) with crumbling foundations (significantly traumatizing developmental years) --and they do everything they can to keep the house standing. We've all hired contractors who suck at their jobs and make our homes worse---that doesn't mean we should never hire a contractor--just that we should be wary of who we hire--and quick to fire an underperforming or sketchy contractor.

I think some people are too quick to take what a random therapist says as gospel--but people also do that with teachers, auto mechanics, physicians, etc.

Maybe you should check yours. Quality mental healthcare like what you describe is generally only available to those who are able to afford it. Most don’t take insurance so therapy is actually a luxury. What’s worse, is that, as another PP pointed out, you barely even know anything about the person you are meeting with the first time before you are stuck.

Stuck??

DP but I understand and agree with PP. it’s so hard to find anyone that to see someone at all, you have to pay out of pocket and you have to give them a few sessions to see of they’re a fit. If not, you’re back to searching again or on a waitlist. It’s hard to get in at all so some people might feel like they have to make the best of what was available rather go without completely.

+1 Seeking mental health services is really hard for me. When I've encountered a therapist I didn't mesh with, it also made me feel unmotivated to keep seeking services (especially when the therapist made me uncomfortable).

Anonymous wrote:I do think there's a level of introspection that's unhealthy. I see it most in younger adults who don't have children yet. I even felt it in myself in my 20s. I felt untethered and had too much time to myself.

Now that I'm a parent it seems unreal to me how some young adults can cut off their parents for such minor things. Like a video I watched recently of a woman blaming her mom (always the mom...) for making her a people pleaser and saying that it was a trauma response. At some point you have to realize that your parents did the best they could do (absent REAL trauma like the ACE indicators) and everyone deserves grace.

Amen.

I just interviewed a young woman who referred to a bad work experience as “her trauma” . Can we stop calling every unpleasant experience a “trauma” and go back to teaching resiliency and empowerment? YOU decide how you react and YOU decide to give people power. YOU decide to move on. These kids have been told to marinate in their self-pity instead. it’s self-absorbed, unproductive, and unhelpful.

Anonymous wrote:I do think there's a level of introspection that's unhealthy. I see it most in younger adults who don't have children yet. I even felt it in myself in my 20s. I felt untethered and had too much time to myself.

Now that I'm a parent it seems unreal to me how some young adults can cut off their parents for such minor things. Like a video I watched recently of a woman blaming her mom (always the mom...) for making her a people pleaser and saying that it was a trauma response. At some point you have to realize that your parents did the best they could do (absent REAL trauma like the ACE indicators) and everyone deserves grace.

The bolded is part of growing up. You are confused and anxious for a while and then you figure it out. It's a phase.

Unfortunately some people get stuck in it.