Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are so many posts about the income or wealth levels associated with being middle class. Setting aside dollar amount, what does MC mean to you.

For me:
Owning a home by your 30s, not necessarily at detached SFM
Can easily afford food, clothing, and utilities
Can afford a vehicle
Can retire someday

To me I've always felt the best depiction of middle class is the tv show Roseanne. The majority of "middle class" descriptions outlined on this board are all forms of the upper middle class to me.

Roseanne and Simpsons represented middle to lower middle class back when they came out. Now that area/house/lifestyle would require an upper middle class income.

Which means there is no longer a true middle class. Regular people with regular incomes can’t afford the same lifestyles people with the same relative incomes could 30 years ago. That’s significant. And no one is talking about it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MC in DC is UMC in Alabama.

This

Yes. Maybe there is a limited MC around here (I think there is). But middle class elsewhere looks a lot different. The trips, Disney and international happen for the factory worked and spouse that works. they also save something for retirement and something for college.

I think people are missing how out of touch this area is. Even in more rural New England 120k combined salary means needs and most wants met. And those jobs exist and families like that exist.

Anonymous wrote:MC means living on a budget and considering costs for everything, even ice cream. It's good for kids to learn these lessons that most UMC will not learn. Almost every UC kid will definitely not learn comparing grocery costs.

And that is the point isn't it. That is a part of the American Dream. Not that you go from rags to riches -- that was never the dream. But you go from poor to lower mc in one generation and maybe to middle in the next. UMC requires more of a push so it could take longer. But from the UMC launching pad to UC. If you are UC it would be odd to fall to poor in one generation. You could have UMC the next generation and MC the next or they could work back up. I grew up UMC. My mother grew up poor; father did not. I am currently UC. My mother asks me all the time how much things cost here at the grocery store or otherwise. I have no idea because I have not looked at prices at the grocery store my whole post-college/post grad life. It's a good thing that kids do not need to know that not a bad thing/

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are so many posts about the income or wealth levels associated with being middle class. Setting aside dollar amount, what does MC mean to you.

For me:
Owning a home by your 30s, not necessarily at detached SFM
Can easily afford food, clothing, and utilities
Can afford a vehicle
Can retire someday

To me I've always felt the best depiction of middle class is the tv show Roseanne. The majority of "middle class" descriptions outlined on this board are all forms of the upper middle class to me.

Roseanne and Simpsons represented middle to lower middle class back when they came out. Now that area/house/lifestyle would require an upper middle class income.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are so many posts about the income or wealth levels associated with being middle class. Setting aside dollar amount, what does MC mean to you.

For me:
Owning a home by your 30s, not necessarily at detached SFM
Can easily afford food, clothing, and utilities
Can afford a vehicle
Can retire someday

What you said is good, but I would change it to owning a home before 40s. Buying at 35 is still middle class since many people don’t have families until then.

I would add:

- can afford 1 vacation involving a plane per year (most likely domestic, but with an international vacation once every few years)
- can easily support a family of 4 including extra supplemental activities such as school sports, with spouse making income as well
- each child has their own bedroom, or at most 2 kids of the same gender share a large room
- can afford extras like going out to the movies or a meal at an average sit down chain restaurant without sweating at all about money
- has an emergency fund of approx 2 months income

You think middle class families of 4 take international vacations every few years????

Right? The bubble some people live in is insane.

Not PP but yes. Maybe top half but yes -- Mexico, Central America, London, Ireland -- yes this is what happens.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are so many posts about the income or wealth levels associated with being middle class. Setting aside dollar amount, what does MC mean to you.

For me:
Owning a home by your 30s, not necessarily at detached SFM
Can easily afford food, clothing, and utilities
Can afford a vehicle
Can retire someday

What you said is good, but I would change it to owning a home before 40s. Buying at 35 is still middle class since many people don’t have families until then.

I would add:

- can afford 1 vacation involving a plane per year (most likely domestic, but with an international vacation once every few years)
- can easily support a family of 4 including extra supplemental activities such as school sports, with spouse making income as well
- each child has their own bedroom, or at most 2 kids of the same gender share a large room
- can afford extras like going out to the movies or a meal at an average sit down chain restaurant without sweating at all about money
- has an emergency fund of approx 2 months income

Agree on this although it may be the upper half of middle class that has all of this. The lower half just portions.

Anonymous wrote:MC in DC is UMC in Alabama.

This

MC in DC is UMC in Alabama.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many of these comments are about using consumer goods/experiences as class signifiers. I think you are missing some obvious errors with this.

Middle class families, by definition, have some wiggle room. Meaning they can make some choices that might enable them to afford things that you normally associate with UMC or rich people. So you can't always ascertain someone's class status just looking at consumer goods or something like vacations, because you don't understand HOW they afforded that. If you don't know what they gave up in order to get it, or whether it was bought with cash or on credit, or whether it was new or used, or whether it was purchased or gifted, then consumer goods/vacations are actually not a great signifier for class status.

A lot of the stuff people on this thread are saying are "out of reach" for MC, I know a lot of MC how have them. But in most cases they are compromising elsewhere in a way that's harder to see.

I think you’re missing a nuance as well. A middle class person can go on say, a Bahamas vacation on credit. But they cannot *afford* it. Thus the debt.

Oh, I'm not missing that. My point is that you can not, as an outsider, look at that person and say "Well they went to the Bahamas last year, so they can't be middle class!" Which is the mistake a lot of people seem to make. Or conversely "Well my middle class sibling went to the Bahamas last year, so all middle class people can afford the Bahamas."

But also, a middle class person might be able to actually afford the Bahamas. Not every year, but as a for instance: I decided I wanted to celebrate my 45th birthday with a family trip to an all inclusive resort in the Caribbean. I shifted some of my savings into a ladder CD to keep it fairly liquid but earn a little better interest, and also instituted a couple other cost savings (doing really cheap lunches, asking DH to forgo birthday gifts for me so we could put the money toward the trip, bought no new clothes for two years) to build that fund up. And then we took a nice vacation to a resort we would never have normally gone too. It was so worth it! And paid for in cash without changing retirement or college savings practices.

The point is: you can't look at someone's consumer activity and assume you know whether they are middle class. The peopel on here saying that a middle class family simply CANNOT go to Europe are just not thinking very creatively. Of course they can. It just takes diligence, sacrifice, and a little luck (MC people always have to worry about a job loss or health emergency derailing them financially).

Wait what is your HHI and PITI? Because what you describe actually doesn’t sound very MC to me. It sounds more like a UMC person pretending. Or someone with unusually low housing costs.

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about -- you just can't believe that someone could simply save up for a splurge as a middle class person. Why is this so hard for people to understand.

Anyway, Our HHI is 180k now but it was around 140k around the time I was doing this. Our mortgage payment back then was $2800 (we were actually house poor back then, so the opposite of having low housing costs -- have since sold that place and moved further out so now have a much lower PITI). So yes, absolutely MC. If we'd had any kind of emergency, even like our dog getting sick or a major appliance breaking, we would not have been able to do it. But we got lucky and it worked out.

Please understand that that’s a very low PITI for the DC area today. And with inflation your income was probably more than you think in today’s dollars.

SO actually, yes, this is EXACTLY what I’M talking about. People who are wealthier than they are admitting to themselves crediting stupid stuff like “cheap lunches” for the fact they can afford stuff that they should of course be able to afford because they have a high income. And in your case, YES very LOW housing costs.

Is it a low PITI for a 2 bedroom condo in a neighborhood with high crime and poor schools? Because that's what it paid for. And we only moved last year, so actually I know exactly how much housing in the DC area costs "in today's dollars."

You can twist yourself in knots to convince yourself that I must be UMC (on 140k, with a kid, in DC!) because I went on one nice vacation. If you want to say I'm "faking" becaus I spent 6 days at a resort, wait until you hear about some of the MC people I know who go to Disney every.single.year (no, I do not know how they do it, but these people are not rich -- I suspect some grandparent help coupled with credit card debt I'd not be comfortable with). You cannot ascertain someone's income or class based on their consumer choices. You just can't. You don't know how they are affording whatever it is -- vacation, house, private school, dinners out, designer clothes. You don't know what you don't know.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are so many posts about the income or wealth levels associated with being middle class. Setting aside dollar amount, what does MC mean to you.

For me:
Owning a home by your 30s, not necessarily at detached SFM
Can easily afford food, clothing, and utilities
Can afford a vehicle
Can retire someday

Poor struggle for needs. Lower middle can afford most of the needs but no wants. Middle can afford all needs and few wants. Upper middle can afford needs and many wants. Rich can afford needs and wants. Wealthy have lot more even after throwing a lot on needs, wants, not needs, whims etc.

This is the best definition I've seen on this thread.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many of these comments are about using consumer goods/experiences as class signifiers. I think you are missing some obvious errors with this.

Middle class families, by definition, have some wiggle room. Meaning they can make some choices that might enable them to afford things that you normally associate with UMC or rich people. So you can't always ascertain someone's class status just looking at consumer goods or something like vacations, because you don't understand HOW they afforded that. If you don't know what they gave up in order to get it, or whether it was bought with cash or on credit, or whether it was new or used, or whether it was purchased or gifted, then consumer goods/vacations are actually not a great signifier for class status.

A lot of the stuff people on this thread are saying are "out of reach" for MC, I know a lot of MC how have them. But in most cases they are compromising elsewhere in a way that's harder to see.

I think you’re missing a nuance as well. A middle class person can go on say, a Bahamas vacation on credit. But they cannot *afford* it. Thus the debt.

Oh, I'm not missing that. My point is that you can not, as an outsider, look at that person and say "Well they went to the Bahamas last year, so they can't be middle class!" Which is the mistake a lot of people seem to make. Or conversely "Well my middle class sibling went to the Bahamas last year, so all middle class people can afford the Bahamas."

But also, a middle class person might be able to actually afford the Bahamas. Not every year, but as a for instance: I decided I wanted to celebrate my 45th birthday with a family trip to an all inclusive resort in the Caribbean. I shifted some of my savings into a ladder CD to keep it fairly liquid but earn a little better interest, and also instituted a couple other cost savings (doing really cheap lunches, asking DH to forgo birthday gifts for me so we could put the money toward the trip, bought no new clothes for two years) to build that fund up. And then we took a nice vacation to a resort we would never have normally gone too. It was so worth it! And paid for in cash without changing retirement or college savings practices.

The point is: you can't look at someone's consumer activity and assume you know whether they are middle class. The peopel on here saying that a middle class family simply CANNOT go to Europe are just not thinking very creatively. Of course they can. It just takes diligence, sacrifice, and a little luck (MC people always have to worry about a job loss or health emergency derailing them financially).

People here are saying the MC can afford things so they can justify that their 300k+ HHI is "only" UMC. There has never been a complaint on DCUM that a "low" earning family "falsely" described themselves as UMC. The complaints are when out of touch UC/rich people describe themselves as UMC and then don't understand why others cannot afford retirement and college.

But this is why using people's consumer choices to define middle class doesn't work.

Being middle class (or any class) is about the choices you HAVE, not the decisions you make.

A middle class person can have a nice vacation, but they will have to forgo something else. If you don't know what it took to afford the vacation, you can't decide what class they are in on that basis.

And the people who are claiming they are MC when they are actually UMC/UC using consumer choices are making the same mistake. They want to say "well I drive an 8 year old Subaru, so I'm MC." But they have the option of buying a $60k car tomorrow if they want to, they just choose not to.

It's the choice you are offered that determines your class, not necessarily the choice you make that is visible to others. Middle class people have more choices than working class people but less than upper class people. They have middling choices, but still choices. And the "middle class squeeze" is when rising costs in housing, healthcare, college, and food, shrink their choices. All classes experience this, but it's more acute for MC people. Poor people had so few choices to begin with -- they aren't lamenting the loss of their annual beach vacation to rising gas prices. And upper class people might feel a pinch, but still have so many choices that it's not that painful. But low prices make middle class peopel feel flush, and inflation makes them feel poor. It's not about what they have, it's about the choices they are presented with more than anything.

Anonymous wrote:That’s not middle class. That is upper or upper middle.

That is not upper class. OP described what Middle Class has always been (at a minimum!).

Currently, middle class incomes are so low and stagnant that people have less buying power and thus feel lower class.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many of these comments are about using consumer goods/experiences as class signifiers. I think you are missing some obvious errors with this.

Middle class families, by definition, have some wiggle room. Meaning they can make some choices that might enable them to afford things that you normally associate with UMC or rich people. So you can't always ascertain someone's class status just looking at consumer goods or something like vacations, because you don't understand HOW they afforded that. If you don't know what they gave up in order to get it, or whether it was bought with cash or on credit, or whether it was new or used, or whether it was purchased or gifted, then consumer goods/vacations are actually not a great signifier for class status.

A lot of the stuff people on this thread are saying are "out of reach" for MC, I know a lot of MC how have them. But in most cases they are compromising elsewhere in a way that's harder to see.

I think you’re missing a nuance as well. A middle class person can go on say, a Bahamas vacation on credit. But they cannot *afford* it. Thus the debt.

Oh, I'm not missing that. My point is that you can not, as an outsider, look at that person and say "Well they went to the Bahamas last year, so they can't be middle class!" Which is the mistake a lot of people seem to make. Or conversely "Well my middle class sibling went to the Bahamas last year, so all middle class people can afford the Bahamas."

But also, a middle class person might be able to actually afford the Bahamas. Not every year, but as a for instance: I decided I wanted to celebrate my 45th birthday with a family trip to an all inclusive resort in the Caribbean. I shifted some of my savings into a ladder CD to keep it fairly liquid but earn a little better interest, and also instituted a couple other cost savings (doing really cheap lunches, asking DH to forgo birthday gifts for me so we could put the money toward the trip, bought no new clothes for two years) to build that fund up. And then we took a nice vacation to a resort we would never have normally gone too. It was so worth it! And paid for in cash without changing retirement or college savings practices.

The point is: you can't look at someone's consumer activity and assume you know whether they are middle class. The peopel on here saying that a middle class family simply CANNOT go to Europe are just not thinking very creatively. Of course they can. It just takes diligence, sacrifice, and a little luck (MC people always have to worry about a job loss or health emergency derailing them financially).

Wait what is your HHI and PITI? Because what you describe actually doesn’t sound very MC to me. It sounds more like a UMC person pretending. Or someone with unusually low housing costs.

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about -- you just can't believe that someone could simply save up for a splurge as a middle class person. Why is this so hard for people to understand.

Anyway, Our HHI is 180k now but it was around 140k around the time I was doing this. Our mortgage payment back then was $2800 (we were actually house poor back then, so the opposite of having low housing costs -- have since sold that place and moved further out so now have a much lower PITI). So yes, absolutely MC. If we'd had any kind of emergency, even like our dog getting sick or a major appliance breaking, we would not have been able to do it. But we got lucky and it worked out.

Please understand that that’s a very low PITI for the DC area today. And with inflation your income was probably more than you think in today’s dollars.

SO actually, yes, this is EXACTLY what I’M talking about. People who are wealthier than they are admitting to themselves crediting stupid stuff like “cheap lunches” for the fact they can afford stuff that they should of course be able to afford because they have a high income. And in your case, YES very LOW housing costs.

Middle class where I grew up in Pa is VERY different than middle class here. There are “middle class” families in DC with a $90k-180k HHI living in a 2BR noisy townhouse, scrambling to lottery into an adequately performing charter or a school across town, paying $2500/month for daycare, walking blocks with groceries & so on.

Middle class where I grew up, if there is a family in that HHI range, it is a two-teacher couple. One of them becomes a principal eventually. It means having a 3+ BR SFH, whether that’s a historic one on a street lined with mature trees or a new build in a subdivision. Schools are at least a 7/10 on GS. All the kids play a travel sport. This couple has 3-4 kids who are watched by a family member; no daycare expenses. One vacation/year, either to Cancún or renting a house near the water in OBX.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many of these comments are about using consumer goods/experiences as class signifiers. I think you are missing some obvious errors with this.

Middle class families, by definition, have some wiggle room. Meaning they can make some choices that might enable them to afford things that you normally associate with UMC or rich people. So you can't always ascertain someone's class status just looking at consumer goods or something like vacations, because you don't understand HOW they afforded that. If you don't know what they gave up in order to get it, or whether it was bought with cash or on credit, or whether it was new or used, or whether it was purchased or gifted, then consumer goods/vacations are actually not a great signifier for class status.

A lot of the stuff people on this thread are saying are "out of reach" for MC, I know a lot of MC how have them. But in most cases they are compromising elsewhere in a way that's harder to see.

I think you’re missing a nuance as well. A middle class person can go on say, a Bahamas vacation on credit. But they cannot *afford* it. Thus the debt.

Oh, I'm not missing that. My point is that you can not, as an outsider, look at that person and say "Well they went to the Bahamas last year, so they can't be middle class!" Which is the mistake a lot of people seem to make. Or conversely "Well my middle class sibling went to the Bahamas last year, so all middle class people can afford the Bahamas."

But also, a middle class person might be able to actually afford the Bahamas. Not every year, but as a for instance: I decided I wanted to celebrate my 45th birthday with a family trip to an all inclusive resort in the Caribbean. I shifted some of my savings into a ladder CD to keep it fairly liquid but earn a little better interest, and also instituted a couple other cost savings (doing really cheap lunches, asking DH to forgo birthday gifts for me so we could put the money toward the trip, bought no new clothes for two years) to build that fund up. And then we took a nice vacation to a resort we would never have normally gone too. It was so worth it! And paid for in cash without changing retirement or college savings practices.

The point is: you can't look at someone's consumer activity and assume you know whether they are middle class. The peopel on here saying that a middle class family simply CANNOT go to Europe are just not thinking very creatively. Of course they can. It just takes diligence, sacrifice, and a little luck (MC people always have to worry about a job loss or health emergency derailing them financially).

Wait what is your HHI and PITI? Because what you describe actually doesn’t sound very MC to me. It sounds more like a UMC person pretending. Or someone with unusually low housing costs.

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about -- you just can't believe that someone could simply save up for a splurge as a middle class person. Why is this so hard for people to understand.

Anyway, Our HHI is 180k now but it was around 140k around the time I was doing this. Our mortgage payment back then was $2800 (we were actually house poor back then, so the opposite of having low housing costs -- have since sold that place and moved further out so now have a much lower PITI). So yes, absolutely MC. If we'd had any kind of emergency, even like our dog getting sick or a major appliance breaking, we would not have been able to do it. But we got lucky and it worked out.