Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a CS/math major and I make more per hour worked than my surgeon brother in law who didn’t start making money until nearly 40 (phd-md). The majority of his family’s major decisions revolve around his career, it constantly takes priority in his family’s life and has nearly led to divorce more than once. Granted, their life has gotten better since he finished his training, research and fellowship, but it was a grueling period of time while trying to also start a family. They have told us after going through the process to become an elite surgeon/researcher, they would never have either of their kids go into medicine unless they were the best of the brightest and could get into something cushy like dermatology (highly competitive).

I love my stress free job, complete flexibility, can work from anywhere, 20 hours per week. If you like and are good at math, are also good with people and American , you will do extremely well. Every industry is in desperate need of tech workers not just Big Tech.

I’ve been in software development and engineering management for almost 30 years. I’ve never met anyone in tech who worked 20 hours per week. Not doubting PP, just saying that experience is not typical. Much more common to work 60 hours per week. Also, you have to stay current. I spend at least 10 hours per week learning new languages, frameworks, and tools (outside of work). There have been some studies about the stress of needing to stay current on software developers over time, and it’s a more stressful gig than you would think for that reason. Also, something like 60% of software projects either fail outright or end up way over budget or late. Depending on your personality, that can be very stressful.

don’t they need to learn about need things in medicine? New research, new trratment, certifications also even for dentists

They do and they have to take medical board exams.
But the speed of change is not like in tech.

There’s a lot of opinions on this thread from non-doctors.

The speed of change is not that fast in general medicine; however, some fields are evolving so rapidly that it’s hard to keep up. Hematology/oncology comes to mind.
I’d strongly advise at least seeking an opinion from a specialist at an academic medical center if you are diagnosed with cancer because there is no way that a general community oncologist who treats all kinds of cancers can keep up with the explosion in new drugs and new molecular/cytogenetic findings that have therapeutic and/or prognostic implications.

And medicine really has been pretty miserable since the pandemic.
We are understaffed - with no way to fix it. Not just a national shortage doctors, but also nurses, support staff, laboratory techs, etc.
From what I can tell, my hours 20 years into my career rival those of a big law lawyer, but I earn about a third of what they do.
The people I know in tech work for home. With shorter hours.

I just can’t recommend medicine in its current iteration.

Don’t you feel good about helping people? I work in a teaching hospital and many of my colleagues stay even though they could be in far more lucrative positions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a CS/math major and I make more per hour worked than my surgeon brother in law who didn’t start making money until nearly 40 (phd-md). The majority of his family’s major decisions revolve around his career, it constantly takes priority in his family’s life and has nearly led to divorce more than once. Granted, their life has gotten better since he finished his training, research and fellowship, but it was a grueling period of time while trying to also start a family. They have told us after going through the process to become an elite surgeon/researcher, they would never have either of their kids go into medicine unless they were the best of the brightest and could get into something cushy like dermatology (highly competitive).

I love my stress free job, complete flexibility, can work from anywhere, 20 hours per week. If you like and are good at math, are also good with people and American , you will do extremely well. Every industry is in desperate need of tech workers not just Big Tech.

I’ve been in software development and engineering management for almost 30 years. I’ve never met anyone in tech who worked 20 hours per week. Not doubting PP, just saying that experience is not typical. Much more common to work 60 hours per week. Also, you have to stay current. I spend at least 10 hours per week learning new languages, frameworks, and tools (outside of work). There have been some studies about the stress of needing to stay current on software developers over time, and it’s a more stressful gig than you would think for that reason. Also, something like 60% of software projects either fail outright or end up way over budget or late. Depending on your personality, that can be very stressful.

don’t they need to learn about need things in medicine? New research, new trratment, certifications also even for dentists

They do and they have to take medical board exams.
But the speed of change is not like in tech.

There’s a lot of opinions on this thread from non-doctors.

The speed of change is not that fast in general medicine; however, some fields are evolving so rapidly that it’s hard to keep up. Hematology/oncology comes to mind.
I’d strongly advise at least seeking an opinion from a specialist at an academic medical center if you are diagnosed with cancer because there is no way that a general community oncologist who treats all kinds of cancers can keep up with the explosion in new drugs and new molecular/cytogenetic findings that have therapeutic and/or prognostic implications.

And medicine really has been pretty miserable since the pandemic.
We are understaffed - with no way to fix it. Not just a national shortage doctors, but also nurses, support staff, laboratory techs, etc.
From what I can tell, my hours 20 years into my career rival those of a big law lawyer, but I earn about a third of what they do.
The people I know in tech work for home. With shorter hours.

I just can’t recommend medicine in its current iteration.

I am 30 years old and I work in cybersecurity and I make 400K/year with no student loans debt. My 35 years old brother just finished his PhD/MD in medicine and his salary is around 425K/year but he has about 400K in student loan debt. My work is very stressful but not as stressful as his. I made money at the age of 22 after graduation up until now so I am about 2M ahead of him in earnings with no debt while he has 400K in student loan debt.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a CS/math major and I make more per hour worked than my surgeon brother in law who didn’t start making money until nearly 40 (phd-md). The majority of his family’s major decisions revolve around his career, it constantly takes priority in his family’s life and has nearly led to divorce more than once. Granted, their life has gotten better since he finished his training, research and fellowship, but it was a grueling period of time while trying to also start a family. They have told us after going through the process to become an elite surgeon/researcher, they would never have either of their kids go into medicine unless they were the best of the brightest and could get into something cushy like dermatology (highly competitive).

I love my stress free job, complete flexibility, can work from anywhere, 20 hours per week. If you like and are good at math, are also good with people and American , you will do extremely well. Every industry is in desperate need of tech workers not just Big Tech.

I’ve been in software development and engineering management for almost 30 years. I’ve never met anyone in tech who worked 20 hours per week. Not doubting PP, just saying that experience is not typical. Much more common to work 60 hours per week. Also, you have to stay current. I spend at least 10 hours per week learning new languages, frameworks, and tools (outside of work). There have been some studies about the stress of needing to stay current on software developers over time, and it’s a more stressful gig than you would think for that reason. Also, something like 60% of software projects either fail outright or end up way over budget or late. Depending on your personality, that can be very stressful.

don’t they need to learn about need things in medicine? New research, new trratment, certifications also even for dentists

They do and they have to take medical board exams.
But the speed of change is not like in tech.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a CS/math major and I make more per hour worked than my surgeon brother in law who didn’t start making money until nearly 40 (phd-md). The majority of his family’s major decisions revolve around his career, it constantly takes priority in his family’s life and has nearly led to divorce more than once. Granted, their life has gotten better since he finished his training, research and fellowship, but it was a grueling period of time while trying to also start a family. They have told us after going through the process to become an elite surgeon/researcher, they would never have either of their kids go into medicine unless they were the best of the brightest and could get into something cushy like dermatology (highly competitive).

I love my stress free job, complete flexibility, can work from anywhere, 20 hours per week. If you like and are good at math, are also good with people and American , you will do extremely well. Every industry is in desperate need of tech workers not just Big Tech.

I’ve been in software development and engineering management for almost 30 years. I’ve never met anyone in tech who worked 20 hours per week. Not doubting PP, just saying that experience is not typical. Much more common to work 60 hours per week. Also, you have to stay current. I spend at least 10 hours per week learning new languages, frameworks, and tools (outside of work). There have been some studies about the stress of needing to stay current on software developers over time, and it’s a more stressful gig than you would think for that reason. Also, something like 60% of software projects either fail outright or end up way over budget or late. Depending on your personality, that can be very stressful.

don’t they need to learn about need things in medicine? New research, new trratment, certifications also even for dentists

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a CS/math major and I make more per hour worked than my surgeon brother in law who didn’t start making money until nearly 40 (phd-md). The majority of his family’s major decisions revolve around his career, it constantly takes priority in his family’s life and has nearly led to divorce more than once. Granted, their life has gotten better since he finished his training, research and fellowship, but it was a grueling period of time while trying to also start a family. They have told us after going through the process to become an elite surgeon/researcher, they would never have either of their kids go into medicine unless they were the best of the brightest and could get into something cushy like dermatology (highly competitive).

I love my stress free job, complete flexibility, can work from anywhere, 20 hours per week. If you like and are good at math, are also good with people and American , you will do extremely well. Every industry is in desperate need of tech workers not just Big Tech.

I’ve been in software development and engineering management for almost 30 years. I’ve never met anyone in tech who worked 20 hours per week. Not doubting PP, just saying that experience is not typical. Much more common to work 60 hours per week. Also, you have to stay current. I spend at least 10 hours per week learning new languages, frameworks, and tools (outside of work). There have been some studies about the stress of needing to stay current on software developers over time, and it’s a more stressful gig than you would think for that reason. Also, something like 60% of software projects either fail outright or end up way over budget or late. Depending on your personality, that can be very stressful.

I realize that many CS people look down on government work, but that’s where I took my CS degree over 20 years ago and I have worked 24 hours a week (part-time when my kids were little). I know it’s not the same thing, and you’re right that longer weeks are standard. When I was an IT PM I used to tease one of the contractors I was closer with by telling him I never work weekends because I have people to do that for me. It wasn’t really true, because I filled in for people on leave and would participate in testing for deployments when it was needed, but nothing like they were doing in a regular basis.

I don’t make what other people in my field make in private, but my CS degree had been an ever present asset to my career since so few in Federal Service have that educational background. I have never worked more than 40 hours a week without getting paid. I am not a tech geek….I went into the field because my Parents insisted on a degree that would land a job. I don’t have to keep up with brand new tech because government is basically always 10 years behind, but I do have to attend training and read websites and go to conferences and vendor presentations and learn new platforms and talk very skeptical people into shifting their entire work process based on me saying I know it will help them. So, while it’s not the career path that many take, it’s one that’s available to new graduates who value their time more than a higher paycheck.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a CS/math major and I make more per hour worked than my surgeon brother in law who didn’t start making money until nearly 40 (phd-md). The majority of his family’s major decisions revolve around his career, it constantly takes priority in his family’s life and has nearly led to divorce more than once. Granted, their life has gotten better since he finished his training, research and fellowship, but it was a grueling period of time while trying to also start a family. They have told us after going through the process to become an elite surgeon/researcher, they would never have either of their kids go into medicine unless they were the best of the brightest and could get into something cushy like dermatology (highly competitive).

I love my stress free job, complete flexibility, can work from anywhere, 20 hours per week. If you like and are good at math, are also good with people and American , you will do extremely well. Every industry is in desperate need of tech workers not just Big Tech.

I’ve been in software development and engineering management for almost 30 years. I’ve never met anyone in tech who worked 20 hours per week. Not doubting PP, just saying that experience is not typical. Much more common to work 60 hours per week. Also, you have to stay current. I spend at least 10 hours per week learning new languages, frameworks, and tools (outside of work). There have been some studies about the stress of needing to stay current on software developers over time, and it’s a more stressful gig than you would think for that reason. Also, something like 60% of software projects either fail outright or end up way over budget or late. Depending on your personality, that can be very stressful.

What type of company or govt entity?

Anonymous wrote:I’m a CS/math major and I make more per hour worked than my surgeon brother in law who didn’t start making money until nearly 40 (phd-md). The majority of his family’s major decisions revolve around his career, it constantly takes priority in his family’s life and has nearly led to divorce more than once. Granted, their life has gotten better since he finished his training, research and fellowship, but it was a grueling period of time while trying to also start a family. They have told us after going through the process to become an elite surgeon/researcher, they would never have either of their kids go into medicine unless they were the best of the brightest and could get into something cushy like dermatology (highly competitive).

I love my stress free job, complete flexibility, can work from anywhere, 20 hours per week. If you like and are good at math, are also good with people and American , you will do extremely well. Every industry is in desperate need of tech workers not just Big Tech.

I’ve been in software development and engineering management for almost 30 years. I’ve never met anyone in tech who worked 20 hours per week. Not doubting PP, just saying that experience is not typical. Much more common to work 60 hours per week. Also, you have to stay current. I spend at least 10 hours per week learning new languages, frameworks, and tools (outside of work). There have been some studies about the stress of needing to stay current on software developers over time, and it’s a more stressful gig than you would think for that reason. Also, something like 60% of software projects either fail outright or end up way over budget or late. Depending on your personality, that can be very stressful.

Anonymous wrote:I’m a CS/math major and I make more per hour worked than my surgeon brother in law who didn’t start making money until nearly 40 (phd-md). The majority of his family’s major decisions revolve around his career, it constantly takes priority in his family’s life and has nearly led to divorce more than once. Granted, their life has gotten better since he finished his training, research and fellowship, but it was a grueling period of time while trying to also start a family. They have told us after going through the process to become an elite surgeon/researcher, they would never have either of their kids go into medicine unless they were the best of the brightest and could get into something cushy like dermatology (highly competitive).

I love my stress free job, complete flexibility, can work from anywhere, 20 hours per week. If you like and are good at math, are also good with people and American , you will do extremely well. Every industry is in desperate need of tech workers not just Big Tech.

This is our DS, currently a college junior. What do you recommend for this type of CS major for first jobs? He’s not sure he could get a security clearance or would want a job with one since he’s a regular MJ smoker. He would thrive under what you describe as your current working conditions.

Anonymous wrote:I’m a CS/math major and I make more per hour worked than my surgeon brother in law who didn’t start making money until nearly 40 (phd-md). The majority of his family’s major decisions revolve around his career, it constantly takes priority in his family’s life and has nearly led to divorce more than once. Granted, their life has gotten better since he finished his training, research and fellowship, but it was a grueling period of time while trying to also start a family. They have told us after going through the process to become an elite surgeon/researcher, they would never have either of their kids go into medicine unless they were the best of the brightest and could get into something cushy like dermatology (highly competitive).

I love my stress free job, complete flexibility, can work from anywhere, 20 hours per week. If you like and are good at math, are also good with people and American , you will do extremely well. Every industry is in desperate need of tech workers not just Big Tech.

This shows the pitfalls of medicine and the advantages of CS if you have analytical mind.

I’m a CS/math major and I make more per hour worked than my surgeon brother in law who didn’t start making money until nearly 40 (phd-md). The majority of his family’s major decisions revolve around his career, it constantly takes priority in his family’s life and has nearly led to divorce more than once. Granted, their life has gotten better since he finished his training, research and fellowship, but it was a grueling period of time while trying to also start a family. They have told us after going through the process to become an elite surgeon/researcher, they would never have either of their kids go into medicine unless they were the best of the brightest and could get into something cushy like dermatology (highly competitive).

I love my stress free job, complete flexibility, can work from anywhere, 20 hours per week. If you like and are good at math, are also good with people and American , you will do extremely well. Every industry is in desperate need of tech workers not just Big Tech.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In CS you can make a lot of money very quickly. You don’t have to study for extra 8 years. You can be a millionaire in that time.

Over the course of your 30 or 40 year work career, the average doctor will still make a lot more than the average CS person. Not to mention there's more job security and stability.

+1. I think it's silly to compare MD vs CS

I also think it’s silly and I have a CS degree.

It’s just not a comparable career path and, honestly, even within the scope of MD or CS there are variations in occupation that make even subsets not that similar. The career of a research doctor isn’t the same as that of emergency room doctor. A gaming developer isn’t the same as a government contractor.

They’re both solid paths to choose, so whatever degree is decided upon should be something the person can complete and feel successful. Neither of these paths will likely end up unemployed for long stretches or don’t offer higher and lower stress career options.

It is not silly for STEM focused college freshman or sophomore to think about.

It’s silly for the Mom to equate the two degrees. It makes more sense to equate Biomedical Engineering to Medicine. I assume OP is looking for insight into the fields and it’s valuable to know the difference.

CS is not the same skillset, as pointed out by many people on this thread. One is a math based discipline and one is a hard science based discipline. STEM is a broad term and kids are not generally good at either math and science OR English and history. Many kids are great at math but terrible at biology. OP should talk to her child about what she’s interested in and then encourage a major that will appeal to that skill. There are very many options. One good option is to take a biology based engineering degree and then apply to medical school if they still want that after 4 years. Then they kid will have a degree that’s employable after a Bachelor’s Degree and still have the option to move forward in the medical field.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In CS you can make a lot of money very quickly. You don’t have to study for extra 8 years. You can be a millionaire in that time.

Over the course of your 30 or 40 year work career, the average doctor will still make a lot more than the average CS person. Not to mention there's more job security and stability.

+1. I think it's silly to compare MD vs CS

I also think it’s silly and I have a CS degree.

It’s just not a comparable career path and, honestly, even within the scope of MD or CS there are variations in occupation that make even subsets not that similar. The career of a research doctor isn’t the same as that of emergency room doctor. A gaming developer isn’t the same as a government contractor.

They’re both solid paths to choose, so whatever degree is decided upon should be something the person can complete and feel successful. Neither of these paths will likely end up unemployed for long stretches or don’t offer higher and lower stress career options.

As someone with both an MD and CS undergraduate, I would agree. I would also say that CS is definitely not for everybody in that not everyone has the mind for it (problem solving skills, abstract thinking, etc). My CS classes were far more challenging then any of my pre-med or medical school classes with the latter being much more memorization based. For many, the hardest part of medical school is just getting accepted.

Medicine is not one monolithic field that you can compare with. You have so many specialties, academic vs private practice, rural vs city, and non-clinical careers like research, pharma, consulting, etc. Each specialty can come with different lifestyle, salary, prestige, training period, etc.

Don’t discourage your dd from medicine.
Is that your advice for OP ?

Anonymous wrote:The MD degree is very versatile. You don’t have to be a practicing doctor all your life. There are positions in big Pharma, government, research institutes, VC, telehealth companies, insurance, and so on.

And hospital management. Executives make 7-figure salaries.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In CS you can make a lot of money very quickly. You don’t have to study for extra 8 years. You can be a millionaire in that time.

Over the course of your 30 or 40 year work career, the average doctor will still make a lot more than the average CS person. Not to mention there's more job security and stability.

+1. I think it's silly to compare MD vs CS

I also think it’s silly and I have a CS degree.

It’s just not a comparable career path and, honestly, even within the scope of MD or CS there are variations in occupation that make even subsets not that similar. The career of a research doctor isn’t the same as that of emergency room doctor. A gaming developer isn’t the same as a government contractor.

They’re both solid paths to choose, so whatever degree is decided upon should be something the person can complete and feel successful. Neither of these paths will likely end up unemployed for long stretches or don’t offer higher and lower stress career options.

As someone with both an MD and CS undergraduate, I would agree. I would also say that CS is definitely not for everybody in that not everyone has the mind for it (problem solving skills, abstract thinking, etc). My CS classes were far more challenging then any of my pre-med or medical school classes with the latter being much more memorization based. For many, the hardest part of medical school is just getting accepted.

Medicine is not one monolithic field that you can compare with. You have so many specialties, academic vs private practice, rural vs city, and non-clinical careers like research, pharma, consulting, etc. Each specialty can come with different lifestyle, salary, prestige, training period, etc.