Anonymous
Post 01/24/2023 11:39     Subject: Son pledging there’s definitely hazing
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Contrary to many other posts, there's really no way anyone can advise you on a course of action without knowing what "pretty bad" means.


Agree, if the pledge is uncomfortable and in danger, report and drop. If the kid is just pissed for having to clean up the house after a party or drive a drunk brother home (the right thing to do) than a whole other story...technically "hazing" but part of the deal and if it bothers him than a fraternity probably is not for him.


He was fully prepared for that kind of thing. No this is forced eating of horrible stuff with vomit of 40 guys for hours ensuing that were allowed only the floor to do so then “activities” in the vomit. Literally all day everyone yelling at you you’re a piece of shit, etc. yes stupid stuff like driving he could care less about that. He actually believes one guy is psychotic/sociopath. It’s 7 weeks. Severe, dangerous sleep deprivation. 10 guys left after first night. I want him to quit but has to come from him. We’d wholeheartedly support him and he has the confidence to quit. He is well- liked, has a lot of friends, a girlfriend, has a good future ahead of him

The comment about, if he stays, doing this to others was something we talked about last night. He’s worried about that. He also said he’s “mentally tough” but I reminded him none of us know where are breaking point may be.


Eating other frat members' vomit is a common practice during hazing at at least one Dartmouth College frat. Dartmouth hazing has been documented in a book--which I cannot recall at this time. Relative confirmed a few years ago--pre-Covid--that the practice was still part of the hazing process.


Yes well Animal House was based on something.
Anonymous
Post 01/24/2023 11:38     Subject: Son pledging there’s definitely hazing
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Contrary to many other posts, there's really no way anyone can advise you on a course of action without knowing what "pretty bad" means.


Agree, if the pledge is uncomfortable and in danger, report and drop. If the kid is just pissed for having to clean up the house after a party or drive a drunk brother home (the right thing to do) than a whole other story...technically "hazing" but part of the deal and if it bothers him than a fraternity probably is not for him.


He was fully prepared for that kind of thing. No this is forced eating of horrible stuff with vomit of 40 guys for hours ensuing that were allowed only the floor to do so then “activities” in the vomit. Literally all day everyone yelling at you you’re a piece of shit, etc. yes stupid stuff like driving he could care less about that. He actually believes one guy is psychotic/sociopath. It’s 7 weeks. Severe, dangerous sleep deprivation. 10 guys left after first night. I want him to quit but has to come from him. We’d wholeheartedly support him and he has the confidence to quit. He is well- liked, has a lot of friends, a girlfriend, has a good future ahead of him

The comment about, if he stays, doing this to others was something we talked about last night. He’s worried about that. He also said he’s “mentally tough” but I reminded him none of us know where are breaking point may be.


Are these the kind of people who are worth having as "friends"? It's so crazy how guys convince themselves that THIS is how you "prove" you are worthy to be in a group. Why does your kid or anyone need this kind of "approval" from these kinds of people?
Anonymous
Post 01/24/2023 11:34     Subject: Re:Son pledging there’s definitely hazing
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:He’s an adult (presumably) and can make his own choices. Land the helicopter.


This is not a helicopter situation. Their frontal lobes are still developing. We had a nephew end up in a coma. This is still a parenting moment.

OP - Definitely talk with him about the values of this fraternity and joining means he will have to subject others to these actions. I hope that makes an impact.


+1000

The fact he's telling mom/dad about it means he's concerned and does NOT know how to respond. Peer pressure is huge, especially at college freshman year who you are trying to navigate a new social life. He's asking for help and it's your job as a parent to advise him and help him make the correct choice


Completely agree. What he and others accept as pledges will be recorded and he will be expected to do the same next year and following years. It is extremely difficult to leave this kind of situation b/c they have psychologically conditioned him to thinking that they want him as a friend, and he knows that he will be marked if he either tells or gets out without telling. It's coercion straight up. And you can't expect an 18 yr old in a new school/social circle to know how to handle it.

Help him find his inner values and whether he would be proud for people to know what he is witnessing, experiencing, or will be doing. I'm sure the threat of videoing behavior and publishing it is huge.

Please help your kid know how to own his standards. He knows it's wrong.
Anonymous
Post 01/24/2023 11:30     Subject: Son pledging there’s definitely hazing
OP. Go ahead and name the school and the frat here. It's anonymous after all.. It's not like they are going to sue you. It will end up helping a lot of other kids/parents.

FWIW, my DS (at Michigan) considered a Frat last year but realized most of them are predominantly White and filled with a bunch of racist a-holes. His decision to not keep going was validated when he saw other kids that persevered being abused, crying in the dorms, etc. He's moved on and now has plenty of friends and activities he's part of. The familiar argument about "brothers" after college and 'network' is all BS. Do you really want your son to have racist, a-hole brothers and benefit from their network?
Anonymous
Post 01/24/2023 11:23     Subject: Re:Son pledging there’s definitely hazing
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Physical hazing or property damage? Both are bad but for me there’s a huge difference.

If it’s anything physical or humiliating, I wouldn't sugarcoat. Tell him there’s a trend in kids secretly recording these rites and to imagine the world watching a tape of him forcing this on others next year. Having his future ruined and family embarrassed may motivate him if the moral qualms aren’t enough.

You might also tell him that half of his future dating pool won’t touch a frat guy who hazed others with a ten foot pole.


Hazing goes way beyond just "humiliating." It can be violent and deadly. Watch that PBS documentary or the "Breath Nolan Breath" linked earlier in this thread.


Taking the worst incidents and projecting it onto hazing as a whole isn't a way to get a realistic picture of what's going on. We have no idea what OP's son is going through and, in terms of actual risk, how it compares to - say - getting in a car.

Could be that there's very real danger here or it could be that there's very limited risk of significant harm.
Anonymous
Post 01/24/2023 11:08     Subject: Son pledging there’s definitely hazing
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Contrary to many other posts, there's really no way anyone can advise you on a course of action without knowing what "pretty bad" means.


Agree, if the pledge is uncomfortable and in danger, report and drop. If the kid is just pissed for having to clean up the house after a party or drive a drunk brother home (the right thing to do) than a whole other story...technically "hazing" but part of the deal and if it bothers him than a fraternity probably is not for him.


Why is "technically hazing a part of the deal"? that's the issue!!! It should not be. It's stupid, dangerous and ends up killing/injuring kids each year


Picking up trash and being a DD is not stupid and dangerous, in fact being a DD is a positive thing.


My ds has told me about MUCH MUCH worse that his roommate had to endure. Dangerous physical risks. NP


Yes, I don't consider being a DD and picking up trash/cleanup to be "hazing". That's just being a responsible part of a group. If that is ALL a frat does, then I'm good with that. But we all know that's not what is being discussed as hazing
Anonymous
Post 01/24/2023 11:05     Subject: Son pledging there’s definitely hazing
Anonymous wrote:Is this UVA?


It can’t be UVA as they just started rush also 40 pledges is more than UVA would have.

My DS is at UVA and in a frat and what OP describes would've been a hard no for him. The worst thing his frat did was make them clean the house after parties and they had to be sober to work during parties. No forced consumption of ANY kind.
Anonymous
Post 01/24/2023 11:04     Subject: Son pledging there’s definitely hazing
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:He should report it and not join.


Call the school - presidents office.


You can also report it to the fraternity's national offices. They have a vested interest, if only because of the liability issues involved.

If they know you've documented your report to them, it could be used in a lawsuit if something ever happened at that chapter. Even if your kid survives unscathed, the report could be used years later to demonstrate they knew there was a potential problem at that chapter and it was never investigated.
Anonymous
Post 01/24/2023 11:03     Subject: Son pledging there’s definitely hazing
Are these the people you want him to socialize with for the next four years. If he is “successful,” he will become the gazer (torturer).

Anonymous
Post 01/24/2023 10:55     Subject: Son pledging there’s definitely hazing
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Contrary to many other posts, there's really no way anyone can advise you on a course of action without knowing what "pretty bad" means.


Agree, if the pledge is uncomfortable and in danger, report and drop. If the kid is just pissed for having to clean up the house after a party or drive a drunk brother home (the right thing to do) than a whole other story...technically "hazing" but part of the deal and if it bothers him than a fraternity probably is not for him.


He was fully prepared for that kind of thing. No this is forced eating of horrible stuff with vomit of 40 guys for hours ensuing that were allowed only the floor to do so then “activities” in the vomit. Literally all day everyone yelling at you you’re a piece of shit, etc. yes stupid stuff like driving he could care less about that. He actually believes one guy is psychotic/sociopath. It’s 7 weeks. Severe, dangerous sleep deprivation. 10 guys left after first night. I want him to quit but has to come from him. We’d wholeheartedly support him and he has the confidence to quit. He is well- liked, has a lot of friends, a girlfriend, has a good future ahead of him

The comment about, if he stays, doing this to others was something we talked about last night. He’s worried about that. He also said he’s “mentally tough” but I reminded him none of us know where are breaking point may be.


OP, I would press hard on him to quit under these circumstances. Reassure him that it doesn't mean that his isn't "mentally tough". Instead, it means that he has respect for himself and others and isn't willing to be treated this way, watch others be treated this way, or treat others this way in future years. Assure him (and get his father to assure him if possible) that dropping out isn't a sign that he isn't a real man - it is a sign that he is a real man.


Yes, it’s “mentally tough” to leave. That takes real fortitude and confidence.

I would also really lean on “next year someone might report the hazing, then you’re the one who gets punished”; seems like he’s not moved by the risk to himself as a haze-ee, but he could be moved by the risk to himself as a future haze-er.
Anonymous
Post 01/24/2023 10:41     Subject: Son pledging there’s definitely hazing
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Contrary to many other posts, there's really no way anyone can advise you on a course of action without knowing what "pretty bad" means.


Agree, if the pledge is uncomfortable and in danger, report and drop. If the kid is just pissed for having to clean up the house after a party or drive a drunk brother home (the right thing to do) than a whole other story...technically "hazing" but part of the deal and if it bothers him than a fraternity probably is not for him.


He was fully prepared for that kind of thing. No this is forced eating of horrible stuff with vomit of 40 guys for hours ensuing that were allowed only the floor to do so then “activities” in the vomit. Literally all day everyone yelling at you you’re a piece of shit, etc. yes stupid stuff like driving he could care less about that. He actually believes one guy is psychotic/sociopath. It’s 7 weeks. Severe, dangerous sleep deprivation. 10 guys left after first night. I want him to quit but has to come from him. We’d wholeheartedly support him and he has the confidence to quit. He is well- liked, has a lot of friends, a girlfriend, has a good future ahead of him

The comment about, if he stays, doing this to others was something we talked about last night. He’s worried about that. He also said he’s “mentally tough” but I reminded him none of us know where are breaking point may be.


OP, I would press hard on him to quit under these circumstances. Reassure him that it doesn't mean that his isn't "mentally tough". Instead, it means that he has respect for himself and others and isn't willing to be treated this way, watch others be treated this way, or treat others this way in future years. Assure him (and get his father to assure him if possible) that dropping out isn't a sign that he isn't a real man - it is a sign that he is a real man.


+1 times 1,000,000
Anonymous
Post 01/24/2023 10:41     Subject: Son pledging there’s definitely hazing
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Contrary to many other posts, there's really no way anyone can advise you on a course of action without knowing what "pretty bad" means.


Agree, if the pledge is uncomfortable and in danger, report and drop. If the kid is just pissed for having to clean up the house after a party or drive a drunk brother home (the right thing to do) than a whole other story...technically "hazing" but part of the deal and if it bothers him than a fraternity probably is not for him.


He was fully prepared for that kind of thing. No this is forced eating of horrible stuff with vomit of 40 guys for hours ensuing that were allowed only the floor to do so then “activities” in the vomit. Literally all day everyone yelling at you you’re a piece of shit, etc. yes stupid stuff like driving he could care less about that. He actually believes one guy is psychotic/sociopath. It’s 7 weeks. Severe, dangerous sleep deprivation. 10 guys left after first night. I want him to quit but has to come from him. We’d wholeheartedly support him and he has the confidence to quit. He is well- liked, has a lot of friends, a girlfriend, has a good future ahead of him

The comment about, if he stays, doing this to others was something we talked about last night. He’s worried about that. He also said he’s “mentally tough” but I reminded him none of us know where are breaking point may be.


Eating other frat members' vomit is a common practice during hazing at at least one Dartmouth College frat. Dartmouth hazing has been documented in a book--which I cannot recall at this time. Relative confirmed a few years ago--pre-Covid--that the practice was still part of the hazing process.
Anonymous
Post 01/24/2023 10:39     Subject: Son pledging there’s definitely hazing
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Contrary to many other posts, there's really no way anyone can advise you on a course of action without knowing what "pretty bad" means.


Agree, if the pledge is uncomfortable and in danger, report and drop. If the kid is just pissed for having to clean up the house after a party or drive a drunk brother home (the right thing to do) than a whole other story...technically "hazing" but part of the deal and if it bothers him than a fraternity probably is not for him.


He was fully prepared for that kind of thing. No this is forced eating of horrible stuff with vomit of 40 guys for hours ensuing that were allowed only the floor to do so then “activities” in the vomit. Literally all day everyone yelling at you you’re a piece of shit, etc. yes stupid stuff like driving he could care less about that. He actually believes one guy is psychotic/sociopath. It’s 7 weeks. Severe, dangerous sleep deprivation. 10 guys left after first night. I want him to quit but has to come from him. We’d wholeheartedly support him and he has the confidence to quit. He is well- liked, has a lot of friends, a girlfriend, has a good future ahead of him

The comment about, if he stays, doing this to others was something we talked about last night. He’s worried about that. He also said he’s “mentally tough” but I reminded him none of us know where are breaking point may be.


OP, I would press hard on him to quit under these circumstances. Reassure him that it doesn't mean that his isn't "mentally tough". Instead, it means that he has respect for himself and others and isn't willing to be treated this way, watch others be treated this way, or treat others this way in future years. Assure him (and get his father to assure him if possible) that dropping out isn't a sign that he isn't a real man - it is a sign that he is a real man.
Anonymous
Post 01/24/2023 10:37     Subject: Re:Son pledging there’s definitely hazing
Anonymous wrote:Physical hazing or property damage? Both are bad but for me there’s a huge difference.

If it’s anything physical or humiliating, I wouldn't sugarcoat. Tell him there’s a trend in kids secretly recording these rites and to imagine the world watching a tape of him forcing this on others next year. Having his future ruined and family embarrassed may motivate him if the moral qualms aren’t enough.

You might also tell him that half of his future dating pool won’t touch a frat guy who hazed others with a ten foot pole.


Hazing goes way beyond just "humiliating." It can be violent and deadly. Watch that PBS documentary or the "Breath Nolan Breath" linked earlier in this thread.
Anonymous
Post 01/24/2023 10:37     Subject: Son pledging there’s definitely hazing
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Contrary to many other posts, there's really no way anyone can advise you on a course of action without knowing what "pretty bad" means.


Agree, if the pledge is uncomfortable and in danger, report and drop. If the kid is just pissed for having to clean up the house after a party or drive a drunk brother home (the right thing to do) than a whole other story...technically "hazing" but part of the deal and if it bothers him than a fraternity probably is not for him.


He was fully prepared for that kind of thing. No this is forced eating of horrible stuff with vomit of 40 guys for hours ensuing that were allowed only the floor to do so then “activities” in the vomit. Literally all day everyone yelling at you you’re a piece of shit, etc. yes stupid stuff like driving he could care less about that. He actually believes one guy is psychotic/sociopath. It’s 7 weeks. Severe, dangerous sleep deprivation. 10 guys left after first night. I want him to quit but has to come from him. We’d wholeheartedly support him and he has the confidence to quit. He is well- liked, has a lot of friends, a girlfriend, has a good future ahead of him

The comment about, if he stays, doing this to others was something we talked about last night. He’s worried about that. He also said he’s “mentally tough” but I reminded him none of us know where are breaking point may be.


I can see that. And then others may tend to follow his lead bc they are hesitant to speak up. Only takes one.


Is the one guy a senior? If not, that guy is definitely going to be making your DS force this kind of thing on next year's frosh too.

Also, OP, I'm so sorry your son is going through this. I have friends who have had great positive experiences with Greek life, but I also had a childhood babysitter who got both her legs broken during a sorority initiation. I can be super dangerous. I hope he finds a way forward and most importantly all the kids come through safely.