Anonymous
01/09/2023 16:08
Subject: Picture of Mohammed
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Apparently this is terribly offensive. Why is that? The oldest pictures are Muslim?
And how can we tell more Americans so they don't accidentally upset people?
So, I'm not going to show a picture just to try to upset people, but this isn't that case and I can't believe the university fired this professor.
So much for moderate Muslims.
Actual, I've read several Muslims condemning the university and supporting the teacher.
The president of the Muslim Student Association is the one who got the ball rolling on her dismissal
The Hamline University MSA doesn't speak for all Muslims.
Which ones doesn't it speak for? I haven't seen any Muslim complain
I am offended as a Muslim. In choosing to label this image of Muhammad as Islamophobic, in endorsing the view that figurative representations of the Prophet are prohibited in Islam, Hamline has privileged a most extreme and conservative Muslim point of view
Professor Amna Khalid, who supports the fired Hamline professor
Anonymous
01/09/2023 16:08
Subject: Picture of Mohammed
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Apparently this is terribly offensive. Why is that? The oldest pictures are Muslim?
And how can we tell more Americans so they don't accidentally upset people?
So, I'm not going to show a picture just to try to upset people, but this isn't that case and I can't believe the university fired this professor.
So much for moderate Muslims.
Actual, I've read several Muslims condemning the university and supporting the teacher.
The president of the Muslim Student Association is the one who got the ball rolling on her dismissal
The Hamline University MSA doesn't speak for all Muslims.
Which ones doesn't it speak for? I haven't seen any Muslim complain
The NY Times article somebody linked to above quotes a Muslim complaining. There's even a photo of him with his painting of Mohammed that he smuggled out of Iran during the revolution.
Interestingly, this was an online class. Making it even easier for the student to look away after being warned. Some in the NY Times comments section are comparing this to entrapment: the student was given multiple warnings but chose to remain and then criticize the prof after the fact.
The bigger issue is, should we stop teaching and testing kids about evolution so as not to offend creationists in all religions? Where does it end?
Anonymous
01/09/2023 15:57
Subject: Picture of Mohammed
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Apparently this is terribly offensive. Why is that? The oldest pictures are Muslim?
And how can we tell more Americans so they don't accidentally upset people?
So, I'm not going to show a picture just to try to upset people, but this isn't that case and I can't believe the university fired this professor.
So much for moderate Muslims.
Actual, I've read several Muslims condemning the university and supporting the teacher.
The president of the Muslim Student Association is the one who got the ball rolling on her dismissal
The Hamline University MSA doesn't speak for all Muslims.
Which ones doesn't it speak for? I haven't seen any Muslim complain
Anonymous
01/09/2023 15:56
Subject: Picture of Mohammed
Anonymous wrote:What’s odd is that, as I understand the Muslim belief, it bans depictions of the deity in general, as well as the prophet. But presumably the art history class can show the sistene chapel and other famous pieces of art that depict god, right? Which would be equally offensive to a devout Muslim.
It seems to me that the right answer here is to provide a warning and allow students who are offended to be excused from those assignments,
I don’t think it’s at all equivalent to the instances of newspapers running cartoons that depict Mohammad to make a political point.
It's complicated, but basically Islam can explain away Jesus as "they're another people of the book". That's why they are relatively tolerant of Jews and Christians. Real idol worship, like Hindu, they are required to destroy.
Anonymous
01/09/2023 15:54
Subject: Picture of Mohammed
It's not really surprising that in a religion where the extremists kill themselves in order to kill non believers, the non extremists will protest a picture of Mohammed. The issue here is the professor being fired.
Anonymous
01/09/2023 15:52
Subject: Picture of Mohammed
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I feel like everyone tempted to show a picture of Mohammad knows they're being inflammatory. For them, this is a bug rather than a feature. I don't believe there is an ignorance crisis.
The crisis is one of jerkiness. Whether or not you agree it should be offensive, understand that it is. Only jerks deliberately offend in this way.
Is violent retaliation appropriate? I think not, but we all need to understand that the action can be understood as deeply offensive and just not do it in the first place.
Signed, traditional Jew who thinks a lot of ultra-secular and progressive faith Americans and Europeans have a bizarre blind spot when it comes to respecting the traditions of groups that have traditions.
It was an art history class! The professor repeatedly warned the students that there would be an image of Mohammed; why does the intersection of history, art, and religion need to be inflammatory?
People that are religious need to understand that the world should not revolve around their fairy tale beliefs and outdated traditions. It's a-OK to have these beliefs but it's stupid to expect others to adhere to them.
If she gave warnings and no one spoke up earlier, then she shouldn't have been fired.
It's news, because she was fired.
I had a professor who tried to bait me into defending my religion. It never even occured to me to complain. I worry about the confidence these kids are showing, that their feelings are more important than anyone else's. It's a consequence of being raised as self absorbed children
Anonymous
01/09/2023 15:30
Subject: Picture of Mohammed
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I feel like everyone tempted to show a picture of Mohammad knows they're being inflammatory. For them, this is a bug rather than a feature. I don't believe there is an ignorance crisis.
The crisis is one of jerkiness. Whether or not you agree it should be offensive, understand that it is. Only jerks deliberately offend in this way.
Is violent retaliation appropriate? I think not, but we all need to understand that the action can be understood as deeply offensive and just not do it in the first place.
Signed, traditional Jew who thinks a lot of ultra-secular and progressive faith Americans and Europeans have a bizarre blind spot when it comes to respecting the traditions of groups that have traditions.
It was an art history class! The professor repeatedly warned the students that there would be an image of Mohammed; why does the intersection of history, art, and religion need to be inflammatory?
People that are religious need to understand that the world should not revolve around their fairy tale beliefs and outdated traditions. It's a-OK to have these beliefs but it's stupid to expect others to adhere to them.
If she gave warnings and no one spoke up earlier, then she shouldn't have been fired.
Anonymous
01/09/2023 15:25
Subject: Picture of Mohammed
the real test Is if they fire profs depicting their thee prophets like Moses as Islam forbids depicting them all . Islam forbids crucifixes too as it depicts Jesus whom they view as a prophetAnonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This was a 14th century image that was shown in an art history class. The instructor did not depict the prophet.
Shouldn't have been fired.
As a former academic I can tell you there is really very little "academic freedom" out there, no matter what side of the political spectrum you are on.
Anonymous
01/09/2023 15:16
Subject: Picture of Mohammed
Anonymous wrote:This was a 14th century image that was shown in an art history class. The instructor did not depict the prophet.
Shouldn't have been fired.
As a former academic I can tell you there is really very little "academic freedom" out there, no matter what side of the political spectrum you are on.
Anonymous
01/09/2023 14:10
Subject: Picture of Mohammed
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I feel like everyone tempted to show a picture of Mohammad knows they're being inflammatory. For them, this is a bug rather than a feature. I don't believe there is an ignorance crisis.
The crisis is one of jerkiness. Whether or not you agree it should be offensive, understand that it is. Only jerks deliberately offend in this way.
Is violent retaliation appropriate? I think not, but we all need to understand that the action can be understood as deeply offensive and just not do it in the first place.
Signed, traditional Jew who thinks a lot of ultra-secular and progressive faith Americans and Europeans have a bizarre blind spot when it comes to respecting the traditions of groups that have traditions.
So, should the cafeteria at a secular college that your kids might attend stop serving cheeseburgers?
You're confusing a lot of things, and your example is a poor one. There's nothing offensive to a Jewish person about not-Jewish people eating cheeseburgers. No conflict.
There would be a really big problem, on the other hand, if the people at this secular college gathered Torah scrolls and urinated on them. That would be incredibly offensive. But people who aren't jerks wouldn't do that, you see.
I don't think dogmatically secular people should have so much trouble imagining that something a different community has TOLD them it considers incredibly offensive is going to offend them a whole lot. There are a lot of things you probably understand as complete jerk actions. Wearing blackface comes to mind. Add depicting Mohammed to the list. Just don't do it. Because only jerks and bullies offend intentionally.
The art historian who taught this class did not depict Mohammed. She showed an artwork that a Muslim artist created and told students beforehand they could leave if it would offend them.
Andres Serrano’s Piss Christ offended a lot of Christians. Should it be banned from a class about his photography?
Anonymous
01/09/2023 14:04
Subject: Picture of Mohammed
Anonymous wrote:I feel like everyone tempted to show a picture of Mohammad knows they're being inflammatory. For them, this is a bug rather than a feature. I don't believe there is an ignorance crisis.
The crisis is one of jerkiness. Whether or not you agree it should be offensive, understand that it is. Only jerks deliberately offend in this way.
Is violent retaliation appropriate? I think not, but we all need to understand that the action can be understood as deeply offensive and just not do it in the first place.
Signed, traditional Jew who thinks a lot of ultra-secular and progressive faith Americans and Europeans have a bizarre blind spot when it comes to respecting the traditions of groups that have traditions.
Look I understand there is a history of right-wing jerkiness about such things, but this was an academic setting and there were warnings given. If you can’t study historical items in a history class, for goodness sake where can you study them? What about a class devoted to Nazi propaganda, where the material to be studied is totally offensive. But it’s important to know these things exist(ed). Historians research and think about and look at offensive things every single day, because history is full of offense.
At any rate, the Muslim artist who made this particular artwork for a Muslim patron did not think it was offensive. That there are different visual traditions within Islamic culture is surely important to know for an art history class.
Anonymous
01/09/2023 13:00
Subject: Picture of Mohammed
I am so sick and tired of religious beliefs dictating and superseding the rights and enjoyment of the whole. Your religious belief is no more special or right or true than anything else anyone else believes. In the US you have the right to practice it but you don't and shouldn't have the right to impose it on the whole.
Anonymous
01/09/2023 13:00
Subject: Picture of Mohammed
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Apparently this is terribly offensive. Why is that? The oldest pictures are Muslim?
And how can we tell more Americans so they don't accidentally upset people?
So, I'm not going to show a picture just to try to upset people, but this isn't that case and I can't believe the university fired this professor.
So much for moderate Muslims.
Actual, I've read several Muslims condemning the university and supporting the teacher.
The president of the Muslim Student Association is the one who got the ball rolling on her dismissal
The Hamline University MSA doesn't speak for all Muslims.
Anonymous
01/09/2023 12:51
Subject: Picture of Mohammed
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I feel like everyone tempted to show a picture of Mohammad knows they're being inflammatory. For them, this is a bug rather than a feature. I don't believe there is an ignorance crisis.
The crisis is one of jerkiness. Whether or not you agree it should be offensive, understand that it is. Only jerks deliberately offend in this way.
Is violent retaliation appropriate? I think not, but we all need to understand that the action can be understood as deeply offensive and just not do it in the first place.
Signed, traditional Jew who thinks a lot of ultra-secular and progressive faith Americans and Europeans have a bizarre blind spot when it comes to respecting the traditions of groups that have traditions.
It was an art history class! The professor repeatedly warned the students that there would be an image of Mohammed; why does the intersection of history, art, and religion need to be inflammatory?
People that are religious need to understand that the world should not revolve around their fairy tale beliefs and outdated traditions. It's a-OK to have these beliefs but it's stupid to expect others to adhere to them.
People need to be able to understand things from one another's perspectives. Sometimes that means knowing not to do something culturally insensitive.
It's not a madressa! It's an institution of higher learning where everyone's views should be broadened and challenged. We should not be sterilizing all of our conversations and history. Geez!!!
Anonymous
01/09/2023 12:51
Subject: Picture of Mohammed
but Islam prohibits displaying an image of any prophetAnonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Someone should find professors there posting images of jesus , especially as black . Will they get fired ?
Of course not. Jesus was a POC and images of him as a POC are everywhere in modern churches.