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Anonymous wrote:My kid scored 1590 on the first try. Also NMS We love that there are many candidates who go TO. It does not harm us or them.

You are naive. My child with a similar score got waitlisted for HYPSM last year. If it wasn't test optional, I'm fairly certain they would have been accepted. The school has a small waitlist, and some TO kids have been accepted instead of my kid.

Maybe those TO kids were more interesting, wrote a better application, had better recs, or overall seemed to be a better fit for the school.

I'm not disputing they must have nice application, otherwise they would not have been accepted. But my kid also had a nice application, otherwise they would not be able to make it to a small waitlist. At the end, it is a number game. All I am saying, if TO acceptances revealed their scores, you would think SOME of those acceptances would become rejection. Why is this so hard to grasp

And that doesn’t translate into your kid getting in. Face it they were judged to be subpar. How hard is that to grasp.

NP: how hard is it to grasp that those who would not have been accepted if TO never existed would have allowed other more capable students to be admitted. PPs child might be one of them…

“capable” by one measure (test scores) but apparently not others. The colleges have decided that test scores are not significant enough to gate keep on that measure. Sounds like the other kids were more capable on other measures.

I think this makes some people here happy to believe this, but the vast majority of kids being admitted to T20 are still being admitted primarily on the basis of test scores and grades. The data absolutely supports this.

NP: I agree but this doesn't negate what the PP stated. If the OP's kid got a 1590 and submitted the score and ultimately didn't get accepted to a top-tier school, admissions determined that the kid's test score was not enough to gain acceptance over the TO kids that did get in. That means that for 20-40% of students that were accepted TO, other aspects of their applications tipped the scale compared to OP's kid.

However, I do think that the OP's kid would have had a better chance (e.g., 20% vs 5%) of getting in if TO didn't exist because TO did significantly increase the number of applicants at T20 schools. Still, this is hard to determine because we don't know how many kids went TO because they didn't score in the 75% but before TO would have submitted scores at the 25-50% and still been accepted over a 1590, which definitely happened pre-Covid.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:My kid scored 1590 on the first try. Also NMS We love that there are many candidates who go TO. It does not harm us or them.

You are naive. My child with a similar score got waitlisted for HYPSM last year. If it wasn't test optional, I'm fairly certain they would have been accepted. The school has a small waitlist, and some TO kids have been accepted instead of my kid.

Maybe those TO kids were more interesting, wrote a better application, had better recs, or overall seemed to be a better fit for the school.

I'm not disputing they must have nice application, otherwise they would not have been accepted. But my kid also had a nice application, otherwise they would not be able to make it to a small waitlist. At the end, it is a number game. All I am saying, if TO acceptances revealed their scores, you would think SOME of those acceptances would become rejection. Why is this so hard to grasp

And that doesn’t translate into your kid getting in. Face it they were judged to be subpar. How hard is that to grasp.

NP: how hard is it to grasp that those who would not have been accepted if TO never existed would have allowed other more capable students to be admitted. PPs child might be one of them…

“capable” by one measure (test scores) but apparently not others. The colleges have decided that test scores are not significant enough to gate keep on that measure. Sounds like the other kids were more capable on other measures.

I think this makes some people here happy to believe this, but the vast majority of kids being admitted to T20 are still being admitted primarily on the basis of test scores and grades. The data absolutely supports this.

where is this data?

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Anonymous wrote:My kid scored 1590 on the first try. Also NMS We love that there are many candidates who go TO. It does not harm us or them.

You are naive. My child with a similar score got waitlisted for HYPSM last year. If it wasn't test optional, I'm fairly certain they would have been accepted. The school has a small waitlist, and some TO kids have been accepted instead of my kid.

Maybe those TO kids were more interesting, wrote a better application, had better recs, or overall seemed to be a better fit for the school.

I'm not disputing they must have nice application, otherwise they would not have been accepted. But my kid also had a nice application, otherwise they would not be able to make it to a small waitlist. At the end, it is a number game. All I am saying, if TO acceptances revealed their scores, you would think SOME of those acceptances would become rejection. Why is this so hard to grasp

And that doesn’t translate into your kid getting in. Face it they were judged to be subpar. How hard is that to grasp.

NP: how hard is it to grasp that those who would not have been accepted if TO never existed would have allowed other more capable students to be admitted. PPs child might be one of them…

“capable” by one measure (test scores) but apparently not others. The colleges have decided that test scores are not significant enough to gate keep on that measure. Sounds like the other kids were more capable on other measures.

I think this makes some people here happy to believe this, but the vast majority of kids being admitted to T20 are still being admitted primarily on the basis of test scores and grades. The data absolutely supports this.

TO has allowed my DC with significant learning disabilities/dyslexia but high grades (4.3 weighted) to compete for top-tier schools. Even with testing accommodations, DC has “bombed” the SAT. We are grateful for TO.

AO's haven't relied on test scores in a long time. COVID cancellations gave them the way to finally get their VPs, Presidents, and boards to allow them to go TO.

Now that they've shown they can bring in classes without testing, they're hoping they get to keep doing what they've been doing all along: holistic review that considers the full applicant.

There is a theory out there that schools that have gone back to testing have admission departments run by College Board board members or ties to Sal Khan's businesses.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid scored 1590 on the first try. Also NMS We love that there are many candidates who go TO. It does not harm us or them.

You are naive. My child with a similar score got waitlisted for HYPSM last year. If it wasn't test optional, I'm fairly certain they would have been accepted. The school has a small waitlist, and some TO kids have been accepted instead of my kid.

Maybe those TO kids were more interesting, wrote a better application, had better recs, or overall seemed to be a better fit for the school.

I'm not disputing they must have nice application, otherwise they would not have been accepted. But my kid also had a nice application, otherwise they would not be able to make it to a small waitlist. At the end, it is a number game. All I am saying, if TO acceptances revealed their scores, you would think SOME of those acceptances would become rejection. Why is this so hard to grasp

And that doesn’t translate into your kid getting in. Face it they were judged to be subpar. How hard is that to grasp.

NP: how hard is it to grasp that those who would not have been accepted if TO never existed would have allowed other more capable students to be admitted. PPs child might be one of them…

“capable” by one measure (test scores) but apparently not others. The colleges have decided that test scores are not significant enough to gate keep on that measure. Sounds like the other kids were more capable on other measures.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid scored 1590 on the first try. Also NMS We love that there are many candidates who go TO. It does not harm us or them.

You are naive. My child with a similar score got waitlisted for HYPSM last year. If it wasn't test optional, I'm fairly certain they would have been accepted. The school has a small waitlist, and some TO kids have been accepted instead of my kid.

Maybe those TO kids were more interesting, wrote a better application, had better recs, or overall seemed to be a better fit for the school.

I'm not disputing they must have nice application, otherwise they would not have been accepted. But my kid also had a nice application, otherwise they would not be able to make it to a small waitlist. At the end, it is a number game. All I am saying, if TO acceptances revealed their scores, you would think SOME of those acceptances would become rejection. Why is this so hard to grasp

And that doesn’t translate into your kid getting in. Face it they were judged to be subpar. How hard is that to grasp.

NP: how hard is it to grasp that those who would not have been accepted if TO never existed would have allowed other more capable students to be admitted. PPs child might be one of them…

And if my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle. PP is “fairly certain” of it? Give me a break.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid scored 1590 on the first try. Also NMS We love that there are many candidates who go TO. It does not harm us or them.

You are naive. My child with a similar score got waitlisted for HYPSM last year. If it wasn't test optional, I'm fairly certain they would have been accepted. The school has a small waitlist, and some TO kids have been accepted instead of my kid.

Maybe those TO kids were more interesting, wrote a better application, had better recs, or overall seemed to be a better fit for the school.

I'm not disputing they must have nice application, otherwise they would not have been accepted. But my kid also had a nice application, otherwise they would not be able to make it to a small waitlist. At the end, it is a number game. All I am saying, if TO acceptances revealed their scores, you would think SOME of those acceptances would become rejection. Why is this so hard to grasp

And that doesn’t translate into your kid getting in. Face it they were judged to be subpar. How hard is that to grasp.

NP: how hard is it to grasp that those who would not have been accepted if TO never existed would have allowed other more capable students to be admitted. PPs child might be one of them…

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Anonymous wrote:Stop being dramatic. Lots of schools have been test option for 10+ years and are doing fine.

Yes, but most kids used to submit scores. That’s now changing and causing problems for admissions officers, like too many applicants and an inability to fairly judge student records. Tests are coming back.

What makes you think that the goal of admissions officers is to "fairly judge student records". It is not. it is to advance institutional priorities. They couldn't care less about the students.

The whole system is getting more and more messy

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Anonymous wrote:My prediction is that starting with this year’s ED, kids with test scores are going to start winning more seats, particularly at selective schools.

That has been the case for the past years as well. If you have two candidates and one submits a good score and one is test optional, reason suggests the first one gets the slot.

Except that with holistic review, you won’t have candidates exactly alike. There will be other factors.

What are the most relevant of the other factors?

There is not one standard and will vary from school to school and they will never say. Jeff Selingo explains this well in his book.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid scored 1590 on the first try. Also NMS We love that there are many candidates who go TO. It does not harm us or them.

You are naive. My child with a similar score got waitlisted for HYPSM last year. If it wasn't test optional, I'm fairly certain they would have been accepted. The school has a small waitlist, and some TO kids have been accepted instead of my kid.

Maybe those TO kids were more interesting, wrote a better application, had better recs, or overall seemed to be a better fit for the school.

This whole thing about "fit" seems somewhat preposterous to me. As though there is one place each of our kids "fits"....or that colleges and universities cater to one "type" of student.

+ One Million.

In this ridiculous theory and nomenclature, from nursery school to grad school, there is a "right fit school" for every person. This PP has consumed way too much of the independent school Kool-Aid.

Anonymous wrote:My prediction is that starting with this year’s ED, kids with test scores are going to start winning more seats, particularly at selective schools.

Agreed.

Anonymous wrote:I am seeing recommendations that you should only submit your score if you are at or above the mean for the college.
The reason is that colleges want to look good in national stats, so they don't want students who will lower their numbers.

However, not every student will be at exactly the mean, so this means the average for that college will go up.
The next year, only students who score at or higher than that new higher average will be reporting their scores, producing a still higher average.
Pretty soon only 1600s will be reporting their scores. The colleges will be getting no information except for this small group.

How about if they are going to be test optional, the College Board reports the average for each college's acceptances and enrolled students in the aggregate?
That way you at least don't have this vicious cycle.

Correct. I have a 1200s kid who is highly anxious that her scores aren't good enough for any college. This is ridiculous.

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stop being dramatic. Lots of schools have been test option for 10+ years and are doing fine.

Yes, but most kids used to submit scores. That’s now changing and causing problems for admissions officers, like too many applicants and an inability to fairly judge student records. Tests are coming back.

Is that why Williams just extended three more years and Harvard is TO through 2030?

TO allows the most selective schools to accept the students that they want rather than to be "forced" to accept a high or higher percentage of students from certain groups (such as Asians & Jewish students) which typically do well on standardized tests.