Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I guess if you'd never been, it's still "Paris!"

But having studied in Europe years ago and then returned to Paris many times over the years, it's gone quite downhill. Sad about this. I remember how holy Notre Dame used to be - the aura was something to behold - inside you could just feel so much inside. The fire impacted but even before that, last time I was there, I was mortified by the tourist environment that overwhelmed it. I'm hesitant returning as I don't think I want to ruin my memory of it.

Is it like this everywhere in Europe? I studied in Innsbruck around the 1990, and it really was wonderful to see so much of W Europe at that time. I remember the first time I visited Mont St. Michel and then when I returned, I was just so sad. I haven't been back to W Europe for more than a decade and wonder if there's some cities that have retained their magic? I've done more E Europe since and wonder if I should take my kids there or Scandinavia.

Please re-read your post to understand how entitled you sound. You had the means to travel to these places in the 90s. Many did not. Now things have changed, travel is more accessible to everyone, not just elitist white people who don't want others to encroach on their precious travel.

Maybe *you* should read what you wrote along with your assumption about the race of people who are well travelled.

Anonymous wrote:Reminds me of this phenomenon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_syndrome

That reads like an Onion article.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just go further off the beaten track if you want the "real" European experience. Do stuff that Rick Steves says to do. You're just in a different stage of life and want a different kind of travel now.

AVOID DOING STUFF Rick Steves says to do. These restaurants, hotels, and tourist sites will be over run with Americans. You may as well go to Orlando.
Rick Steves has ruined many towns throughout Europe.

We’ll him and the bus loads of Chinese tourists that would push you off a ledge for a photograph….guess they aren’t back though.

Reminds me of this phenomenon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_syndrome

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not just about crowds. I went to Paris mid Covid when only Americans and EU tourists were allowed so crowds were tiny. I still loved the museums of Paris. But the thing that made me fall in love with Paris - the amazing food - lost its charm. The American food scene has boomed in the last two decades and Paris has stagnated. Now major US cities have better options than Paris. I still enjoyed myself though.

Yes. I was VERY disappointed in the food when I was in Paris.

Then you don’t know where to eat in Paris.

Anonymous wrote:It’s not just about crowds. I went to Paris mid Covid when only Americans and EU tourists were allowed so crowds were tiny. I still loved the museums of Paris. But the thing that made me fall in love with Paris - the amazing food - lost its charm. The American food scene has boomed in the last two decades and Paris has stagnated. Now major US cities have better options than Paris. I still enjoyed myself though.

Yes. I was VERY disappointed in the food when I was in Paris.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I guess if you'd never been, it's still "Paris!"

But having studied in Europe years ago and then returned to Paris many times over the years, it's gone quite downhill. Sad about this. I remember how holy Notre Dame used to be - the aura was something to behold - inside you could just feel so much inside. The fire impacted but even before that, last time I was there, I was mortified by the tourist environment that overwhelmed it. I'm hesitant returning as I don't think I want to ruin my memory of it.

Is it like this everywhere in Europe? I studied in Innsbruck around the 1990, and it really was wonderful to see so much of W Europe at that time. I remember the first time I visited Mont St. Michel and then when I returned, I was just so sad. I haven't been back to W Europe for more than a decade and wonder if there's some cities that have retained their magic? I've done more E Europe since and wonder if I should take my kids there or Scandinavia.

Please re-read your post to understand how entitled you sound. You had the means to travel to these places in the 90s. Many did not. Now things have changed, travel is more accessible to everyone, not just elitist white people who don't want others to encroach on their precious travel.

PP may be “entitled,” but they’re not wrong.

The cool places are always changing.

Anonymous wrote:I guess if you'd never been, it's still "Paris!"

But having studied in Europe years ago and then returned to Paris many times over the years, it's gone quite downhill. Sad about this. I remember how holy Notre Dame used to be - the aura was something to behold - inside you could just feel so much inside. The fire impacted but even before that, last time I was there, I was mortified by the tourist environment that overwhelmed it. I'm hesitant returning as I don't think I want to ruin my memory of it.

Is it like this everywhere in Europe? I studied in Innsbruck around the 1990, and it really was wonderful to see so much of W Europe at that time. I remember the first time I visited Mont St. Michel and then when I returned, I was just so sad. I haven't been back to W Europe for more than a decade and wonder if there's some cities that have retained their magic? I've done more E Europe since and wonder if I should take my kids there or Scandinavia.

Please re-read your post to understand how entitled you sound. You had the means to travel to these places in the 90s. Many did not. Now things have changed, travel is more accessible to everyone, not just elitist white people who don't want others to encroach on their precious travel.

Interesting article about this phenomenon. Although I’d argue that only is the experience not what the Instagram hordes thought it would be, they themselves killed the experience even for those who can afford it.

https://apple.news/Af_kjfIRKQeek5fYVGdQgcA

Nor is it really the fault of the crowds, though like seemingly everywhere else in Italy, they are rampant and inescapable and at times contribute to a sense of claustrophobic doom so great that the only way out is divorcing yourself from your body and disassociating until you finally reach open air. Rather, what’s most disturbing about being in Positano is the knowledge that you have been suckered, and the realization that just because you have the means to go somewhere does not mean that you are owed anything more than the experiential equivalent of flying Basic Economy.

To be in Positano as a middle-class person — someone who can afford to travel and take time off work but not, say, afford to buy real estate in the city where they live — is to feel like an idiot for believing it could have been any better, or that being there is actually a benefit to the lives of the people who live there.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's you that changed. I'm not even interested in Paris, Rome, London. But when I was young I was thrilled to do the most trivial things in these places. Even getting a cup of coffee or walking down a street!

THIS. nothing is ever the same as it was, but it may offer something new the next time you go. You're too hung up on what was.

Crowds are undeniably worse, in every single remotely popular tourist destination. And its not accounted for simply by population increase. Its more than that. And it does really diminish the experience. Its not a faulty memory or getting old.

Agree. It’s not just perception from experience/getting older. I recently went somewhere that I visited often as a young person that has truly remained relatively undiscovered, and it was as good as (and maybe even better than) I remembered. There was another place nearby that had been “discovered” and it was a mess.

I have no problem admitting that I’m a snob about this. We’d all have a better experience if travel were more expensive and people traveled less often. How many people on here boast about how they travel abroad 3-4 times a year on a some improbably small budget? It wouldn’t hurt them to go once or twice a year instead and have the experience be better for everyone.

My kids are out of the house and we plan to try to do some traveling off peak and see if it’s better, but if it’s not, we’ll just stick to a few undiscovered places we know and let the masses have the more “famous” destinations.

This is so hilarious, I can't stop laughing. Your trip is fine, you aren't making places crowded. It's just all the other people.

Math is apparently not your strong suit.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's you that changed. I'm not even interested in Paris, Rome, London. But when I was young I was thrilled to do the most trivial things in these places. Even getting a cup of coffee or walking down a street!

THIS. nothing is ever the same as it was, but it may offer something new the next time you go. You're too hung up on what was.

Crowds are undeniably worse, in every single remotely popular tourist destination. And its not accounted for simply by population increase. Its more than that. And it does really diminish the experience. Its not a faulty memory or getting old.

Agree. It’s not just perception from experience/getting older. I recently went somewhere that I visited often as a young person that has truly remained relatively undiscovered, and it was as good as (and maybe even better than) I remembered. There was another place nearby that had been “discovered” and it was a mess.

I have no problem admitting that I’m a snob about this. We’d all have a better experience if travel were more expensive and people traveled less often. How many people on here boast about how they travel abroad 3-4 times a year on a some improbably small budget? It wouldn’t hurt them to go once or twice a year instead and have the experience be better for everyone.

My kids are out of the house and we plan to try to do some traveling off peak and see if it’s better, but if it’s not, we’ll just stick to a few undiscovered places we know and let the masses have the more “famous” destinations.

This is so hilarious, I can't stop laughing. Your trip is fine, you aren't making places crowded. It's just all the other people.

It’s not just about crowds. I went to Paris mid Covid when only Americans and EU tourists were allowed so crowds were tiny. I still loved the museums of Paris. But the thing that made me fall in love with Paris - the amazing food - lost its charm. The American food scene has boomed in the last two decades and Paris has stagnated. Now major US cities have better options than Paris. I still enjoyed myself though.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's you that changed. I'm not even interested in Paris, Rome, London. But when I was young I was thrilled to do the most trivial things in these places. Even getting a cup of coffee or walking down a street!

THIS. nothing is ever the same as it was, but it may offer something new the next time you go. You're too hung up on what was.

Crowds are undeniably worse, in every single remotely popular tourist destination. And its not accounted for simply by population increase. Its more than that. And it does really diminish the experience. Its not a faulty memory or getting old.

Agree. It’s not just perception from experience/getting older. I recently went somewhere that I visited often as a young person that has truly remained relatively undiscovered, and it was as good as (and maybe even better than) I remembered. There was another place nearby that had been “discovered” and it was a mess.

I have no problem admitting that I’m a snob about this. We’d all have a better experience if travel were more expensive and people traveled less often. How many people on here boast about how they travel abroad 3-4 times a year on a some improbably small budget? It wouldn’t hurt them to go once or twice a year instead and have the experience be better for everyone.

My kids are out of the house and we plan to try to do some traveling off peak and see if it’s better, but if it’s not, we’ll just stick to a few undiscovered places we know and let the masses have the more “famous” destinations.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of tourist everywhere is off putting. We now stay clear of most big cities in Europe and even in US. There are still plenty of options.

That's the thing. The number of beautiful little cities I will never visit in Europe is astounding. If you want to go off the beaten track, just pick a less known destination.

My most fun trips in the US have absolutely been little stopovers to places I didn't expect to be so charming. Pittsburgh. Savannah. Albany. Whereas L.A. and Chicago were disappointing.

+1
This has been my experience too. I was really excited to visit Sedona a few years ago but the people taking selfies everywhere totally killed the vibe. Like, standing on the trail trying to get the perfect pic, rejecting it, trying again, etc. Zero self awareness about anyone around them trying to get around them.