Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see it as part of a larger trend toward coddling grown adults so they don't have to be responsible adults making good on their obligations. It's along the same line as people shouting "cancel rent!" I mean, come on. It's time to grow up all the way.

I mean, in the nostalgic past to which you are referring, most people did not go to college and if they did, loans were not available to them at all. You could actually work your way through a public college in 4 years with a relatively low paying job (waiting tables, retail, etc.).

I do actually think that young people today are immature and expect things to be easy. But ask yourself why that is true. Is it something inherent to this generation? No, it's how they were raised. We've created a culture where kids feel entitled to an education, but also feel pressured to get one. Where we have replaced expectations of independence (supporting yourself and your family) at a relatively young age with an amorphous expectation of "success" (impressive degrees, owning a home) at a relatively young age. The expectations for young people today are often shallow and nonsensical, but they are being pushed not by peers but by THEIR PARENTS. You think kids get expensive graduate degrees because their friends are doing it? No, they do it because their families have expectations of a certain kind of success and class status, and graduate school has been presented as a way to get there.

This is a mess of our own making. The idea that young people independently decided to start going to college and graduate school in bigger numbers, decided on their own to take out loans (which didn't used to even be available like this!), and are now struggling with the consequences of their own choices is silly -- this is a Boomer problem and it needs Boomers to help solve it. Yup, that might mean some loan forgiveness. The whole situation is dumb but it wasn't created by 18 yo kids making bad choices. It was created by their parents.

If we want social mobility, then kids should feel entitled to higher education. Independence at 18 usually means a crappy minimum wage job with no future prospects. This isn't 1960 where you can leave high school, join at local factory and have a great union job until you are ready to retire with a nice pension

Exactly -- this is the attitude of most Boomer and Gen X parents I know. But a college education now costs somewhere between 80-300k (and that 80k is increasingly hard to find). Some parents obviously save for this but many, many don't, or can't afford to do it for all of their kids. Schools offer less aid than they used to, especially as a percentage of actual costs, which go up every year.

Our society (and our parents) tell kids that they MUST get a college education to even have a chance at a middle class lifestyle for themselves and their kids. But that education is expensive and loans are presented as the de facto method for paying for it. This is what we've done for 40 years -- tell young people that anything less than a college degree is a failure, and then charge them increasing amounts for that degree while freely lending them money to pay for it. And now people act like the student loan crisis emerged because greedy 18 yo kids wanted "fancy" college degrees in art history and didn't think it through? No. We created this system and now it's blowing up in our faces, and our kids are the ones (literally) paying for it.

They don't have to. "For Virginia community colleges, the average tuition is approximately $3,736 per year for in-state students". That's about $15k for four years.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see it as part of a larger trend toward coddling grown adults so they don't have to be responsible adults making good on their obligations. It's along the same line as people shouting "cancel rent!" I mean, come on. It's time to grow up all the way.

It's part of a trend in things that are affordable in the rest of the developed world becoming increasingly unaffordable here. I do love grandma telling the kids how they waited table to pay their way through undergrad with no debt

Go look at the "affordable education" in the rest of the world. Some of it's affordable, but not accessible - the affordable colleges/universities are only available to a select few students. The US is in fact one of the few places where local community colleges provide an accessible and affordable college education. But no, most people don't want a community college degree. They are looking for a luxurious cocoon for 4 years to affirm their self-image and identity, on other people's dime.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see it as part of a larger trend toward coddling grown adults so they don't have to be responsible adults making good on their obligations. It's along the same line as people shouting "cancel rent!" I mean, come on. It's time to grow up all the way.

I mean, in the nostalgic past to which you are referring, most people did not go to college and if they did, loans were not available to them at all. You could actually work your way through a public college in 4 years with a relatively low paying job (waiting tables, retail, etc.).

I do actually think that young people today are immature and expect things to be easy. But ask yourself why that is true. Is it something inherent to this generation? No, it's how they were raised. We've created a culture where kids feel entitled to an education, but also feel pressured to get one. Where we have replaced expectations of independence (supporting yourself and your family) at a relatively young age with an amorphous expectation of "success" (impressive degrees, owning a home) at a relatively young age. The expectations for young people today are often shallow and nonsensical, but they are being pushed not by peers but by THEIR PARENTS. You think kids get expensive graduate degrees because their friends are doing it? No, they do it because their families have expectations of a certain kind of success and class status, and graduate school has been presented as a way to get there.

This is a mess of our own making. The idea that young people independently decided to start going to college and graduate school in bigger numbers, decided on their own to take out loans (which didn't used to even be available like this!), and are now struggling with the consequences of their own choices is silly -- this is a Boomer problem and it needs Boomers to help solve it. Yup, that might mean some loan forgiveness. The whole situation is dumb but it wasn't created by 18 yo kids making bad choices. It was created by their parents.

If we want social mobility, then kids should feel entitled to higher education. Independence at 18 usually means a crappy minimum wage job with no future prospects. This isn't 1960 where you can leave high school, join at local factory and have a great union job until you are ready to retire with a nice pension

Exactly -- this is the attitude of most Boomer and Gen X parents I know. But a college education now costs somewhere between 80-300k (and that 80k is increasingly hard to find). Some parents obviously save for this but many, many don't, or can't afford to do it for all of their kids. Schools offer less aid than they used to, especially as a percentage of actual costs, which go up every year.

Our society (and our parents) tell kids that they MUST get a college education to even have a chance at a middle class lifestyle for themselves and their kids. But that education is expensive and loans are presented as the de facto method for paying for it. This is what we've done for 40 years -- tell young people that anything less than a college degree is a failure, and then charge them increasing amounts for that degree while freely lending them money to pay for it. And now people act like the student loan crisis emerged because greedy 18 yo kids wanted "fancy" college degrees in art history and didn't think it through? No. We created this system and now it's blowing up in our faces, and our kids are the ones (literally) paying for it.

They don't have to. "For Virginia community colleges, the average tuition is approximately $3,736 per year for in-state students". That's about $15k for four years.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see it as part of a larger trend toward coddling grown adults so they don't have to be responsible adults making good on their obligations. It's along the same line as people shouting "cancel rent!" I mean, come on. It's time to grow up all the way.

I mean, in the nostalgic past to which you are referring, most people did not go to college and if they did, loans were not available to them at all. You could actually work your way through a public college in 4 years with a relatively low paying job (waiting tables, retail, etc.).

I do actually think that young people today are immature and expect things to be easy. But ask yourself why that is true. Is it something inherent to this generation? No, it's how they were raised. We've created a culture where kids feel entitled to an education, but also feel pressured to get one. Where we have replaced expectations of independence (supporting yourself and your family) at a relatively young age with an amorphous expectation of "success" (impressive degrees, owning a home) at a relatively young age. The expectations for young people today are often shallow and nonsensical, but they are being pushed not by peers but by THEIR PARENTS. You think kids get expensive graduate degrees because their friends are doing it? No, they do it because their families have expectations of a certain kind of success and class status, and graduate school has been presented as a way to get there.

This is a mess of our own making. The idea that young people independently decided to start going to college and graduate school in bigger numbers, decided on their own to take out loans (which didn't used to even be available like this!), and are now struggling with the consequences of their own choices is silly -- this is a Boomer problem and it needs Boomers to help solve it. Yup, that might mean some loan forgiveness. The whole situation is dumb but it wasn't created by 18 yo kids making bad choices. It was created by their parents.

If we want social mobility, then kids should feel entitled to higher education. Independence at 18 usually means a crappy minimum wage job with no future prospects. This isn't 1960 where you can leave high school, join at local factory and have a great union job until you are ready to retire with a nice pension

Exactly -- this is the attitude of most Boomer and Gen X parents I know. But a college education now costs somewhere between 80-300k (and that 80k is increasingly hard to find). Some parents obviously save for this but many, many don't, or can't afford to do it for all of their kids. Schools offer less aid than they used to, especially as a percentage of actual costs, which go up every year.

Our society (and our parents) tell kids that they MUST get a college education to even have a chance at a middle class lifestyle for themselves and their kids. But that education is expensive and loans are presented as the de facto method for paying for it. This is what we've done for 40 years -- tell young people that anything less than a college degree is a failure, and then charge them increasing amounts for that degree while freely lending them money to pay for it. And now people act like the student loan crisis emerged because greedy 18 yo kids wanted "fancy" college degrees in art history and didn't think it through? No. We created this system and now it's blowing up in our faces, and our kids are the ones (literally) paying for it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see it as part of a larger trend toward coddling grown adults so they don't have to be responsible adults making good on their obligations. It's along the same line as people shouting "cancel rent!" I mean, come on. It's time to grow up all the way.

It's part of a trend in things that are affordable in the rest of the developed world becoming increasingly unaffordable here. I do love grandma telling the kids how they waited table to pay their way through undergrad with no debt

Anonymous wrote:Our society is structured to keep the masses struggling with financial insecurity. There are not a lot of great jobs for people without a college education. So in order to get the education, the price of it was raised until most people go into debt. Who does that debt benefit? Really think about that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see it as part of a larger trend toward coddling grown adults so they don't have to be responsible adults making good on their obligations. It's along the same line as people shouting "cancel rent!" I mean, come on. It's time to grow up all the way.

I mean, in the nostalgic past to which you are referring, most people did not go to college and if they did, loans were not available to them at all. You could actually work your way through a public college in 4 years with a relatively low paying job (waiting tables, retail, etc.).

I do actually think that young people today are immature and expect things to be easy. But ask yourself why that is true. Is it something inherent to this generation? No, it's how they were raised. We've created a culture where kids feel entitled to an education, but also feel pressured to get one. Where we have replaced expectations of independence (supporting yourself and your family) at a relatively young age with an amorphous expectation of "success" (impressive degrees, owning a home) at a relatively young age. The expectations for young people today are often shallow and nonsensical, but they are being pushed not by peers but by THEIR PARENTS. You think kids get expensive graduate degrees because their friends are doing it? No, they do it because their families have expectations of a certain kind of success and class status, and graduate school has been presented as a way to get there.

This is a mess of our own making. The idea that young people independently decided to start going to college and graduate school in bigger numbers, decided on their own to take out loans (which didn't used to even be available like this!), and are now struggling with the consequences of their own choices is silly -- this is a Boomer problem and it needs Boomers to help solve it. Yup, that might mean some loan forgiveness. The whole situation is dumb but it wasn't created by 18 yo kids making bad choices. It was created by their parents.

If we want social mobility, then kids should feel entitled to higher education. Independence at 18 usually means a crappy minimum wage job with no future prospects. This isn't 1960 where you can leave high school, join at local factory and have a great union job until you are ready to retire with a nice pension

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see it as part of a larger trend toward coddling grown adults so they don't have to be responsible adults making good on their obligations. It's along the same line as people shouting "cancel rent!" I mean, come on. It's time to grow up all the way.

I mean, in the nostalgic past to which you are referring, most people did not go to college and if they did, loans were not available to them at all. You could actually work your way through a public college in 4 years with a relatively low paying job (waiting tables, retail, etc.).

I do actually think that young people today are immature and expect things to be easy. But ask yourself why that is true. Is it something inherent to this generation? No, it's how they were raised. We've created a culture where kids feel entitled to an education, but also feel pressured to get one. Where we have replaced expectations of independence (supporting yourself and your family) at a relatively young age with an amorphous expectation of "success" (impressive degrees, owning a home) at a relatively young age. The expectations for young people today are often shallow and nonsensical, but they are being pushed not by peers but by THEIR PARENTS. You think kids get expensive graduate degrees because their friends are doing it? No, they do it because their families have expectations of a certain kind of success and class status, and graduate school has been presented as a way to get there.

This is a mess of our own making. The idea that young people independently decided to start going to college and graduate school in bigger numbers, decided on their own to take out loans (which didn't used to even be available like this!), and are now struggling with the consequences of their own choices is silly -- this is a Boomer problem and it needs Boomers to help solve it. Yup, that might mean some loan forgiveness. The whole situation is dumb but it wasn't created by 18 yo kids making bad choices. It was created by their parents.

Anonymous wrote:Our society is structured to keep the masses struggling with financial insecurity. There are not a lot of great jobs for people without a college education. So in order to get the education, the price of it was raised until most people go into debt. Who does that debt benefit? Really think about that.

Anonymous wrote:I see it as part of a larger trend toward coddling grown adults so they don't have to be responsible adults making good on their obligations. It's along the same line as people shouting "cancel rent!" I mean, come on. It's time to grow up all the way.

Anonymous wrote:Student debt should never be canceled. It's an investment in someone's future.

Anonymous wrote:I see it as part of a larger trend toward coddling grown adults so they don't have to be responsible adults making good on their obligations. It's along the same line as people shouting "cancel rent!" I mean, come on. It's time to grow up all the way.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one keeps track of how student loan money is spent either.

There are many kids who use loans to fund their spring break trips. Hell, while I was in grad school, we had a guy in our program take out $40k in loans so he could buy studio equipment for his side rap career/hobby. I know tons and tons and tons of med students who took out student loans 'for med school' and used it to spend on going out to the bars every weekend, traveling during the summer, and for all other stupid garbage. But yeah, let's forgive it all without tracking how any of it was spent.

It's safe to say that at least 10k per borrower went towards tuition

+1. I knew one person in my grad program who was very irresponsible with how she spent money and she had loans, but this is not common. You cannot take out that much over what you need for living expenses and tuition. Many people are like me and work full-time, live with many roommates, never go out, and budget a lot to reduce the amount of loans they need to take out.

Anonymous wrote:I see it as part of a larger trend toward coddling grown adults so they don't have to be responsible adults making good on their obligations. It's along the same line as people shouting "cancel rent!" I mean, come on. It's time to grow up all the way.[/quote

That would make sense if this kind of student loan debt had always been around and people always just "manned up" and paid if off. But it's exploded due to lenders lobbying to remove bankruptcy protections from student borrowers, state governments pulling funding from higher education, and all manner of jobs demanding college degrees when they have nothing to do with the work. Lenders have gotten insanely rich off of this broken system, it is lopsided to say 'you there, boy, fix it with your entry level salary" and make it a moral failing that these people have been systemically bilked. The system used to work, then it was broken on purpose so that a select few could profit. The broken system is not the fault of 17 year old graduating seniors, and all responsibility for it should not rest on their shoulders.

And no, I have no student debt to be forgiven. But I did have to pay off almost $200k, and I am now facing secondary infertility because that debt delayed us starting a family for so long. So I have no interest in perpetuating that cycle of BS for another generation if we don't have to do it. And we don't have to.