Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:My personal opinion is that the police union exists to fight for the interests of its members (i.e. cops), not the interests of the people served by the sector (i.e. everyday citizens). The same is true of the WTU, which flights for the interests of its members (i.e. teachers) and not the people served by the sector (i.e. students). This was clearest during the absurd and seriously damaging school closures. And the WTU's political muscle is formidable. There's another thread highlighting the money flowing into local races through DFER and others, which raises good points. But what can parents who oppose the WTU's policies do to influence this election?

Only hole in your logic is police don't serve citizens. The police are not legally obligated to help you if you're in danger.....

er....not sure you want to make this analogy, given last year.

That's not an analogy, it's a legal fact and there have been several court cases that reinforces this....

Pretty sure PP was suggesting that teachers didn't seem to be legally obligated to teach last year.

I think the relevant point is: as a citizen, we generally don’t have an individual right to any specific thing from public services like the police and schools. There are some exceptions, like special education, but even there, citizens cannot dictate exactly what their child gets. Instead, we have a broader right to be able to influence public services through the political process - talking to our representatives, elections, etc. Public sector unions with a right to bargain and make political endorsements put a huge barrier to our ability to influence public services through politics

So teachers shouldn't have the right to organize for their working conditions?

It's a 3-way negotiation here. You can't ignore teachers. And why would you want to anyway? Teacher-run environments are the best. Do you remember early charter school days when there were more charters that were focused on freeing schools from bureaucracy (not the corporate charters most have become now).

Teachers shouldn’t have the right to hold public services hostage as a bargaining tactic, no. Just like the power company can’t cut off power as a labor tactic. Most charters don’t have unions - and that’s one of the elements of their success.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My personal opinion is that the police union exists to fight for the interests of its members (i.e. cops), not the interests of the people served by the sector (i.e. everyday citizens). The same is true of the WTU, which flights for the interests of its members (i.e. teachers) and not the people served by the sector (i.e. students). This was clearest during the absurd and seriously damaging school closures. And the WTU's political muscle is formidable. There's another thread highlighting the money flowing into local races through DFER and others, which raises good points. But what can parents who oppose the WTU's policies do to influence this election?

Only hole in your logic is police don't serve citizens. The police are not legally obligated to help you if you're in danger.....

er....not sure you want to make this analogy, given last year.

That's not an analogy, it's a legal fact and there have been several court cases that reinforces this....

Pretty sure PP was suggesting that teachers didn't seem to be legally obligated to teach last year.

I think the relevant point is: as a citizen, we generally don’t have an individual right to any specific thing from public services like the police and schools. There are some exceptions, like special education, but even there, citizens cannot dictate exactly what their child gets. Instead, we have a broader right to be able to influence public services through the political process - talking to our representatives, elections, etc. Public sector unions with a right to bargain and make political endorsements put a huge barrier to our ability to influence public services through politics

So teachers shouldn't have the right to organize for their working conditions?

It's a 3-way negotiation here. You can't ignore teachers. And why would you want to anyway? Teacher-run environments are the best. Do you remember early charter school days when there were more charters that were focused on freeing schools from bureaucracy (not the corporate charters most have become now).

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:In general, this is like hoping the right wing doesn’t gain too much power, or at least has a strong check to it. I’m also of the camp that believes the union is there to serve its members, and if the choice is between its members and the education of children, they.l pick their members. That’s problematic for me.

What can be done? Just don’t vote for anyone endorsed by the union.

I just want to make sure I’m following…you’re comparing teachers to the MAGA party? I’m thinking you are just trying to backdoor your way around the WTU obsessive trashing that Jeff has been responding to, because you aren’t making much sense. I have no idea why you wouldn’t want teachers to have what the WTU is advocating for. Smaller class sizes, safer and cleaner schools, and better pay for quality teachers seems like something you wouldn’t want a check on. Would you mind explaining why these policies trouble you?

To further explain the comparison: I'm comparing the teachers UNION to the right wing, yes. Not individual teachers. Basically like saying "even if I don't know the exact policies of every candidate, I will till vote D rather than R." So "even if I don't know the exact policies of every candidate, I'll vote for the ones NOT endorsed by the union."

The point is that given too much unfettered power I think they make decisions that on the margin benefit them and not children. I've been alarmed by WTU CORE's January 2022 proposal to reclose schools based on an arbitrary case metric (one that seemed to be echoed by R. White's attempted proposal). I see that CORE is founded by some of WTU leadership. It's not a stretch to believe that CORE has power in the WTU. So CORE releases policy proposals that I find hurtful to children, and that leads me to be very wary of the power that WTU has.

You can say this is all in the past, but January 2022 wasn't that long ago, and it's not like coronavirus is going away. Based on recent past proposals, I am worried about their future proposals.

You’re making it clear here that you don’t understand the internal politics of WTU. CORE is an opposition faction. They want to win control of the union (and similar factions have done so in other cities). If you want that to happen here, the best way to do it is by doing things that make it clear that the current union leadership doesn’t have community support…like “voting only for people who aren’t endorsed by the union”.

Your choice, I guess. I like CORE so it would be fine with me.

Yeah I don't have to understand the internal workings of WTU, nor will I ever be able to, since I'm just a parent and not a WTU member. I see that CORE's main person is also on the executive board of WTU. They are the same to me.

That’s a mistake in your perception.

What you are arguing for is akin to "I will vote for the seemingly moderate R because I hope he doesn't turn out far-right, even though his constituency and staff include a bunch of far-right people." The extreme views of a section of WTU are easily identifiable. The struggle for the extreme viewpoint-holders to win leadership of the WTU has already partially happened. The extreme viewpoint holders have proposed policies HARMFUL TO CHILDREN. This is kind of a no-brainer.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even diehard union people hate police unions and teachers unions.

+1 I was even a leader in another public service union, but I have been displeased with WTU behavior. The sickout to prevent kids from going back to schools was an illegal strike. Laura Fuchs is still promoting the idea of striking. Here's the thing--strikes are meant to hurt the bosses, the people in power. The reason it's morally wrong (and illegal) for teachers to strike the way they did is that it hurts children if they stop teaching. Strikes are not meant to hurt the more vulnerable.

If they wanted an effective collective action that didn't hurt children, they'd keep teaching but stop fulfilling various administrative duties.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My personal opinion is that the police union exists to fight for the interests of its members (i.e. cops), not the interests of the people served by the sector (i.e. everyday citizens). The same is true of the WTU, which flights for the interests of its members (i.e. teachers) and not the people served by the sector (i.e. students). This was clearest during the absurd and seriously damaging school closures. And the WTU's political muscle is formidable. There's another thread highlighting the money flowing into local races through DFER and others, which raises good points. But what can parents who oppose the WTU's policies do to influence this election?

Only hole in your logic is police don't serve citizens. The police are not legally obligated to help you if you're in danger.....

er....not sure you want to make this analogy, given last year.

That's not an analogy, it's a legal fact and there have been several court cases that reinforces this....

Pretty sure PP was suggesting that teachers didn't seem to be legally obligated to teach last year.

I think the relevant point is: as a citizen, we generally don’t have an individual right to any specific thing from public services like the police and schools. There are some exceptions, like special education, but even there, citizens cannot dictate exactly what their child gets. Instead, we have a broader right to be able to influence public services through the political process - talking to our representatives, elections, etc. Public sector unions with a right to bargain and make political endorsements put a huge barrier to our ability to influence public services through politics

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My personal opinion is that the police union exists to fight for the interests of its members (i.e. cops), not the interests of the people served by the sector (i.e. everyday citizens). The same is true of the WTU, which flights for the interests of its members (i.e. teachers) and not the people served by the sector (i.e. students). This was clearest during the absurd and seriously damaging school closures. And the WTU's political muscle is formidable. There's another thread highlighting the money flowing into local races through DFER and others, which raises good points. But what can parents who oppose the WTU's policies do to influence this election?

Only hole in your logic is police don't serve citizens. The police are not legally obligated to help you if you're in danger.....

er....not sure you want to make this analogy, given last year.

That's not an analogy, it's a legal fact and there have been several court cases that reinforces this....

Pretty sure PP was suggesting that teachers didn't seem to be legally obligated to teach last year.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My personal opinion is that the police union exists to fight for the interests of its members (i.e. cops), not the interests of the people served by the sector (i.e. everyday citizens). The same is true of the WTU, which flights for the interests of its members (i.e. teachers) and not the people served by the sector (i.e. students). This was clearest during the absurd and seriously damaging school closures. And the WTU's political muscle is formidable. There's another thread highlighting the money flowing into local races through DFER and others, which raises good points. But what can parents who oppose the WTU's policies do to influence this election?

Only hole in your logic is police don't serve citizens. The police are not legally obligated to help you if you're in danger.....

er....not sure you want to make this analogy, given last year.

That's not an analogy, it's a legal fact and there have been several court cases that reinforces this....

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My personal opinion is that the police union exists to fight for the interests of its members (i.e. cops), not the interests of the people served by the sector (i.e. everyday citizens). The same is true of the WTU, which flights for the interests of its members (i.e. teachers) and not the people served by the sector (i.e. students). This was clearest during the absurd and seriously damaging school closures. And the WTU's political muscle is formidable. There's another thread highlighting the money flowing into local races through DFER and others, which raises good points. But what can parents who oppose the WTU's policies do to influence this election?

Only hole in your logic is police don't serve citizens. The police are not legally obligated to help you if you're in danger.....

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My personal opinion is that the police union exists to fight for the interests of its members (i.e. cops), not the interests of the people served by the sector (i.e. everyday citizens). The same is true of the WTU, which flights for the interests of its members (i.e. teachers) and not the people served by the sector (i.e. students). This was clearest during the absurd and seriously damaging school closures. And the WTU's political muscle is formidable. There's another thread highlighting the money flowing into local races through DFER and others, which raises good points. But what can parents who oppose the WTU's policies do to influence this election?

Only hole in your logic is police don't serve citizens. The police are not legally obligated to help you if you're in danger.....

er....not sure you want to make this analogy, given last year.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My personal opinion is that the police union exists to fight for the interests of its members (i.e. cops), not the interests of the people served by the sector (i.e. everyday citizens). The same is true of the WTU, which flights for the interests of its members (i.e. teachers) and not the people served by the sector (i.e. students). This was clearest during the absurd and seriously damaging school closures. And the WTU's political muscle is formidable. There's another thread highlighting the money flowing into local races through DFER and others, which raises good points. But what can parents who oppose the WTU's policies do to influence this election?

Only hole in your logic is police don't serve citizens. The police are not legally obligated to help you if you're in danger.....

Anonymous wrote:My personal opinion is that the police union exists to fight for the interests of its members (i.e. cops), not the interests of the people served by the sector (i.e. everyday citizens). The same is true of the WTU, which flights for the interests of its members (i.e. teachers) and not the people served by the sector (i.e. students). This was clearest during the absurd and seriously damaging school closures. And the WTU's political muscle is formidable. There's another thread highlighting the money flowing into local races through DFER and others, which raises good points. But what can parents who oppose the WTU's policies do to influence this election?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I personally think the teachers’ interests are almost perfectly aligned with my kids‘ interest. If all the teachers quit because they are afraid of getting sick, my kid is going to be up a creek. We did have a ton who retired or left. I don’t always agree 100% but the views of teachers are extremely important to me.

I feel the same way. I'm not 100% aligned with the WTU, but close enough to have a healthy tension. I would work collaboratively with them any day. The Mayor on the other hand... she's gotta go.

how are you going to “work collaboratively” with any union? you’re not a stakeholder - that’s been made very very clear. OTOH you actually elect a mayor and have specific ways to give feedback or can campaign against her.

I think all public sector unions should have less influence, period. The fact that police unions & teachers unions can disrupt the ability of citizens to have properly administered public services is a huge problem. Look how WTU supporters manage to silence public criticism here.

Can I ask what about the WTU you are interested in criticizing? Specifically?

Do you have to ask? School closures, for one. That taught me that every WTU advocacy item is primarily about teachers, not about children. I am glad that WTU seems more conciliatory now (eg not fighting the end of the mask mandate). I follow WTU on twitter, and it seems to me that their primary advocacy points that they put muscle behind all have to do with strengthening their bargaining unit - their main campaign this year was librarians in every school. I mean that's great an all, but there's absolutely no reason to believe that libraries, among all else, are the most important additional staff we need in each school.

Oh, and they are against accountability (IMPACT) - that's probably their primary political ask, since DC law (correctly) says that Impact cannot be part of the contract. Once the WTU gets to negotiate teacher evaluation system, just see how hard it is to remove failing and even dangerous teachers.

I'm a parent and I hate Impact / PARCC

Same same same

Schools & teachers have to be accountable and measurable in some way.

When I was growing up, it was through classroom observations and failure/graduation rates. It worked pretty well, and we didn’t spend a week-plus of class time each year taking a bunch of standardized tests. The idea that data is the answer for everything is one of the great cons of the 21st century.

+1
Just because you can measure it doesn't mean it's what you should value.

I also think every school should have a librarian, and a school nurse. School libraries are so important, especially for disadvantaged kids.

I don't really think anyone is OPPOSED to school librarians or nurses. Just that budgets aren't infinite and sometimes you have to make choices.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I personally think the teachers’ interests are almost perfectly aligned with my kids‘ interest. If all the teachers quit because they are afraid of getting sick, my kid is going to be up a creek. We did have a ton who retired or left. I don’t always agree 100% but the views of teachers are extremely important to me.

I feel the same way. I'm not 100% aligned with the WTU, but close enough to have a healthy tension. I would work collaboratively with them any day. The Mayor on the other hand... she's gotta go.

how are you going to “work collaboratively” with any union? you’re not a stakeholder - that’s been made very very clear. OTOH you actually elect a mayor and have specific ways to give feedback or can campaign against her.

I think all public sector unions should have less influence, period. The fact that police unions & teachers unions can disrupt the ability of citizens to have properly administered public services is a huge problem. Look how WTU supporters manage to silence public criticism here.

Can I ask what about the WTU you are interested in criticizing? Specifically?

Do you have to ask? School closures, for one. That taught me that every WTU advocacy item is primarily about teachers, not about children. I am glad that WTU seems more conciliatory now (eg not fighting the end of the mask mandate). I follow WTU on twitter, and it seems to me that their primary advocacy points that they put muscle behind all have to do with strengthening their bargaining unit - their main campaign this year was librarians in every school. I mean that's great an all, but there's absolutely no reason to believe that libraries, among all else, are the most important additional staff we need in each school.

Oh, and they are against accountability (IMPACT) - that's probably their primary political ask, since DC law (correctly) says that Impact cannot be part of the contract. Once the WTU gets to negotiate teacher evaluation system, just see how hard it is to remove failing and even dangerous teachers.

I'm a parent and I hate Impact / PARCC

Same same same

Schools & teachers have to be accountable and measurable in some way.

When I was growing up, it was through classroom observations and failure/graduation rates. It worked pretty well, and we didn’t spend a week-plus of class time each year taking a bunch of standardized tests. The idea that data is the answer for everything is one of the great cons of the 21st century.

+1
Just because you can measure it doesn't mean it's what you should value.

I also think every school should have a librarian, and a school nurse. School libraries are so important, especially for disadvantaged kids.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In general, this is like hoping the right wing doesn’t gain too much power, or at least has a strong check to it. I’m also of the camp that believes the union is there to serve its members, and if the choice is between its members and the education of children, they.l pick their members. That’s problematic for me.

What can be done? Just don’t vote for anyone endorsed by the union.

I just want to make sure I’m following…you’re comparing teachers to the MAGA party? I’m thinking you are just trying to backdoor your way around the WTU obsessive trashing that Jeff has been responding to, because you aren’t making much sense. I have no idea why you wouldn’t want teachers to have what the WTU is advocating for. Smaller class sizes, safer and cleaner schools, and better pay for quality teachers seems like something you wouldn’t want a check on. Would you mind explaining why these policies trouble you?

To further explain the comparison: I'm comparing the teachers UNION to the right wing, yes. Not individual teachers. Basically like saying "even if I don't know the exact policies of every candidate, I will till vote D rather than R." So "even if I don't know the exact policies of every candidate, I'll vote for the ones NOT endorsed by the union."

The point is that given too much unfettered power I think they make decisions that on the margin benefit them and not children. I've been alarmed by WTU CORE's January 2022 proposal to reclose schools based on an arbitrary case metric (one that seemed to be echoed by R. White's attempted proposal). I see that CORE is founded by some of WTU leadership. It's not a stretch to believe that CORE has power in the WTU. So CORE releases policy proposals that I find hurtful to children, and that leads me to be very wary of the power that WTU has.

You can say this is all in the past, but January 2022 wasn't that long ago, and it's not like coronavirus is going away. Based on recent past proposals, I am worried about their future proposals.

You’re making it clear here that you don’t understand the internal politics of WTU. CORE is an opposition faction. They want to win control of the union (and similar factions have done so in other cities). If you want that to happen here, the best way to do it is by doing things that make it clear that the current union leadership doesn’t have community support…like “voting only for people who aren’t endorsed by the union”.

Your choice, I guess. I like CORE so it would be fine with me.

Yeah I don't have to understand the internal workings of WTU, nor will I ever be able to, since I'm just a parent and not a WTU member. I see that CORE's main person is also on the executive board of WTU. They are the same to me.

That’s a mistake in your perception.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I personally think the teachers’ interests are almost perfectly aligned with my kids‘ interest. If all the teachers quit because they are afraid of getting sick, my kid is going to be up a creek. We did have a ton who retired or left. I don’t always agree 100% but the views of teachers are extremely important to me.

I feel the same way. I'm not 100% aligned with the WTU, but close enough to have a healthy tension. I would work collaboratively with them any day. The Mayor on the other hand... she's gotta go.

how are you going to “work collaboratively” with any union? you’re not a stakeholder - that’s been made very very clear. OTOH you actually elect a mayor and have specific ways to give feedback or can campaign against her.

I think all public sector unions should have less influence, period. The fact that police unions & teachers unions can disrupt the ability of citizens to have properly administered public services is a huge problem. Look how WTU supporters manage to silence public criticism here.

Can I ask what about the WTU you are interested in criticizing? Specifically?

Do you have to ask? School closures, for one. That taught me that every WTU advocacy item is primarily about teachers, not about children. I am glad that WTU seems more conciliatory now (eg not fighting the end of the mask mandate). I follow WTU on twitter, and it seems to me that their primary advocacy points that they put muscle behind all have to do with strengthening their bargaining unit - their main campaign this year was librarians in every school. I mean that's great an all, but there's absolutely no reason to believe that libraries, among all else, are the most important additional staff we need in each school.

Oh, and they are against accountability (IMPACT) - that's probably their primary political ask, since DC law (correctly) says that Impact cannot be part of the contract. Once the WTU gets to negotiate teacher evaluation system, just see how hard it is to remove failing and even dangerous teachers.

I'm a parent and I hate Impact / PARCC

Same same same

Schools & teachers have to be accountable and measurable in some way.

When I was growing up, it was through classroom observations and failure/graduation rates. It worked pretty well, and we didn’t spend a week-plus of class time each year taking a bunch of standardized tests. The idea that data is the answer for everything is one of the great cons of the 21st century.