Anonymous
Post 12/30/2021 12:58     Subject: For those well-meaning social workers
Anonymous wrote:
All I was looking for was why my aunt was legally entitled to via Medicare. Why be cagey about that? Surely there is a directive?


OP, I'm a caregiver for my husband, and I get where you are coming from.

The entire system is set up to assume and expect that the "loved one" will do everything to take care of the patient. With no training and certainly no compensation from the insurance company.

I learned that there is a diagnostic code that essentially says something like "no caregiver able or willing"

Here it is:

The following code(s) above Z74.2 contain annotation back-references that may be applicable to Z74.2:

Z00-Z99 Factors influencing health status and contact with health services
Z74 Problems related to care provider dependency

Approximate Synonyms
No able caregiver in household

ICD-10-CM Z74.2 is grouped within Diagnostic Related Group(s) (MS-DRG v39.0):
951 Other factors influencing health status


The Social Worker doesn't have anything to do with a diagnosis of course. But I assume her life is made easier if there is an able caregiver. Otherwise she has to do more work to ensure care for the patient.
Anonymous
Post 12/30/2021 12:55     Subject: For those well-meaning social workers
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm a social worker and deal with situations like this frequently. OP, your expectations are way off. First of all - our job is to help our clients self determine. If you and I were having this conversation, I would be empathizing and validating your concerns but nothing else. Your family members don't want to do what you want them to do. As far as I can tell from your post they are competent and making their own decisions. So what you want really doesn't matter. If you want something to change, work with your family members directly. We social workers are not in the business of pushing our clients to do what their nasty/entitled/condescending relatives want them to do.

Also - our elder care system sucks and is lacking in so many ways.


. We social workers are not in the business of pushing our clients to do what their nasty/entitled/condescending relatives want them to do. . Wow, here you go, OP. This is pretty telling as to what SW think of the tired, stressed, scared, overwhelmed family members with all the responsibilities but none of the authority, trying to help.


No, that's what we think of the family members who condescend to us and try to bully us into "doing something" that is out of the scope of our practice.


All I was looking for was why my aunt was legally entitled to via Medicare. Why be cagey about that? Surely there is a directive?


There's not really a directive- lots of factors influence what Medicare will pay for. But generally Medicare pays for basically none of the care your family members need. Which shocks most people when they find out.

Anonymous
Post 12/30/2021 12:54     Subject: For those well-meaning social workers
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm a social worker and deal with situations like this frequently. OP, your expectations are way off. First of all - our job is to help our clients self determine. If you and I were having this conversation, I would be empathizing and validating your concerns but nothing else. Your family members don't want to do what you want them to do. As far as I can tell from your post they are competent and making their own decisions. So what you want really doesn't matter. If you want something to change, work with your family members directly. We social workers are not in the business of pushing our clients to do what their nasty/entitled/condescending relatives want them to do.

Also - our elder care system sucks and is lacking in so many ways.


. We social workers are not in the business of pushing our clients to do what their nasty/entitled/condescending relatives want them to do. . Wow, here you go, OP. This is pretty telling as to what SW think of the tired, stressed, scared, overwhelmed family members with all the responsibilities but none of the authority, trying to help.


No, that's what we think of the family members who condescend to us and try to bully us into "doing something" that is out of the scope of our practice.


All I was looking for was why my aunt was legally entitled to via Medicare. Why be cagey about that? Surely there is a directive?


It may be worth calling the council on aging where your mom is to find out her rights under Medicare and go from there.
Anonymous
Post 12/30/2021 12:53     Subject: For those well-meaning social workers
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I think what the social workers and doctor are explaining OP, is something, is something we, the family members don't really understand until we are thrown into this. If the elderly person is stubborn, but deemed capable of making her own decisions, the professionals arr REQUIRED to follow her wishes. They cannot force anything.

Many of our relatives would like to think we have the magical powers we thought doctors and social workers had. They think we can somehow convince and force our highly difficult parents to do what the rest of think is best for them. To them you just say "I welcome your help. Please call her and tell her what to do and let me know how that goes."

I too had dreams of mom surrounded by friends playing card games at a lovely residential facility. For whatever reason she prefers living in her house of horrors as she scares off more and more friends. Her house has been adapted as much as it can for aging, but is still not appropriate. This is what she wants. Now she also wants US to become most of her social life as she has rage fits at us, guilt trips and tantrums. That is where I draw the line. We check on her and have a social worker checking on her, but we are not going to ENABLE. I spent years being at her beckon call. Now we have hired help and she scares them off then she and the social worker can work together to try someone new. I don't answer the phone when she calls to whine after she scared off and verbally abused another aide because I know if I go there, the abuse will turn on me.

It is not ideal, but this is her choice not ours. Took me a long time and some therapy to accept this and draw boundaries. The anger will do you in OP. My health has improved since I got help and learned to accept reality.


This. Your hostility towards social workers is misplaced, OP. No one, including them, have magical powers to convince people to change their minds to align with your wishes. Yes, it sucks, but lashing out does exactly nothing to improve the situation.


I am the one this person is responding too and what I was doing was scapegoating. My relatives scapegoated me when mom refused to move. I scapegoated all the professionals at first until i learned to accept reality. I didn't know the legal rights of elderly, even nutty difficult elderly who are not the most rational. Mom, a very bright and capable lady, made all her decisions about her future while of sound mind. I was so angry at our social worker (though i didn't show it because I knew I needed her since she could evaluate mom). Her job was to follow mom's wishes and keep assessing mom's needs. I am glad I never showed my anger to her because it comes in handy when a sibling tries to scapegoat me I simply refer them to her for a recent professional assessment of how she is doing. If they complain about her I simply ask them to review the law or talk to a lawyer and then get back to me. One sibling did consult and attorney and after spending that money she understood there was nothing we could do, but keep in touch with mom, visit, consult with social worker and have boundaries.
Anonymous
Post 12/30/2021 12:34     Subject: For those well-meaning social workers
Anonymous wrote:I think what the social workers and doctor are explaining OP, is something, is something we, the family members don't really understand until we are thrown into this. If the elderly person is stubborn, but deemed capable of making her own decisions, the professionals arr REQUIRED to follow her wishes. They cannot force anything.

Many of our relatives would like to think we have the magical powers we thought doctors and social workers had. They think we can somehow convince and force our highly difficult parents to do what the rest of think is best for them. To them you just say "I welcome your help. Please call her and tell her what to do and let me know how that goes."

I too had dreams of mom surrounded by friends playing card games at a lovely residential facility. For whatever reason she prefers living in her house of horrors as she scares off more and more friends. Her house has been adapted as much as it can for aging, but is still not appropriate. This is what she wants. Now she also wants US to become most of her social life as she has rage fits at us, guilt trips and tantrums. That is where I draw the line. We check on her and have a social worker checking on her, but we are not going to ENABLE. I spent years being at her beckon call. Now we have hired help and she scares them off then she and the social worker can work together to try someone new. I don't answer the phone when she calls to whine after she scared off and verbally abused another aide because I know if I go there, the abuse will turn on me.

It is not ideal, but this is her choice not ours. Took me a long time and some therapy to accept this and draw boundaries. The anger will do you in OP. My health has improved since I got help and learned to accept reality.


This. Your hostility towards social workers is misplaced, OP. No one, including them, have magical powers to convince people to change their minds to align with your wishes. Yes, it sucks, but lashing out does exactly nothing to improve the situation.
Anonymous
Post 12/30/2021 12:26     Subject: For those well-meaning social workers
I think what the social workers and doctor are explaining OP, is something, is something we, the family members don't really understand until we are thrown into this. If the elderly person is stubborn, but deemed capable of making her own decisions, the professionals arr REQUIRED to follow her wishes. They cannot force anything.

Many of our relatives would like to think we have the magical powers we thought doctors and social workers had. They think we can somehow convince and force our highly difficult parents to do what the rest of think is best for them. To them you just say "I welcome your help. Please call her and tell her what to do and let me know how that goes."

I too had dreams of mom surrounded by friends playing card games at a lovely residential facility. For whatever reason she prefers living in her house of horrors as she scares off more and more friends. Her house has been adapted as much as it can for aging, but is still not appropriate. This is what she wants. Now she also wants US to become most of her social life as she has rage fits at us, guilt trips and tantrums. That is where I draw the line. We check on her and have a social worker checking on her, but we are not going to ENABLE. I spent years being at her beckon call. Now we have hired help and she scares them off then she and the social worker can work together to try someone new. I don't answer the phone when she calls to whine after she scared off and verbally abused another aide because I know if I go there, the abuse will turn on me.

It is not ideal, but this is her choice not ours. Took me a long time and some therapy to accept this and draw boundaries. The anger will do you in OP. My health has improved since I got help and learned to accept reality.
Anonymous
Post 12/30/2021 12:03     Subject: For those well-meaning social workers
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm a social worker and deal with situations like this frequently. OP, your expectations are way off. First of all - our job is to help our clients self determine. If you and I were having this conversation, I would be empathizing and validating your concerns but nothing else. Your family members don't want to do what you want them to do. As far as I can tell from your post they are competent and making their own decisions. So what you want really doesn't matter. If you want something to change, work with your family members directly. We social workers are not in the business of pushing our clients to do what their nasty/entitled/condescending relatives want them to do.

Also - our elder care system sucks and is lacking in so many ways.


. We social workers are not in the business of pushing our clients to do what their nasty/entitled/condescending relatives want them to do. . Wow, here you go, OP. This is pretty telling as to what SW think of the tired, stressed, scared, overwhelmed family members with all the responsibilities but none of the authority, trying to help.


No, that's what we think of the family members who condescend to us and try to bully us into "doing something" that is out of the scope of our practice.


All I was looking for was why my aunt was legally entitled to via Medicare. Why be cagey about that? Surely there is a directive?
Anonymous
Post 12/30/2021 11:28     Subject: For those well-meaning social workers
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm a social worker and deal with situations like this frequently. OP, your expectations are way off. First of all - our job is to help our clients self determine. If you and I were having this conversation, I would be empathizing and validating your concerns but nothing else. Your family members don't want to do what you want them to do. As far as I can tell from your post they are competent and making their own decisions. So what you want really doesn't matter. If you want something to change, work with your family members directly. We social workers are not in the business of pushing our clients to do what their nasty/entitled/condescending relatives want them to do.

Also - our elder care system sucks and is lacking in so many ways.


. We social workers are not in the business of pushing our clients to do what their nasty/entitled/condescending relatives want them to do. . Wow, here you go, OP. This is pretty telling as to what SW think of the tired, stressed, scared, overwhelmed family members with all the responsibilities but none of the authority, trying to help.


No, that's what we think of the family members who condescend to us and try to bully us into "doing something" that is out of the scope of our practice.
Anonymous
Post 12/30/2021 11:04     Subject: Re:For those well-meaning social workers
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I think you aren’t getting it, OP. These aren’t just well-meaning words. The SW is trying to explain something to you. Your parents are adults, and they can make their own decisions about where to live and how to run their lives whether you agree with them or not. In fact, there is no other option. Medical professionals can’t force people to make better decisions about their health and finances.


If they are competent nothing can be done.


And if they aren’t competent, then what? OP is going to become their legal guardian?


My experience is someone can clearly be incompetent, but still be considered competent after an doctor evaluates. If that is the case, there is nothing you can do, though the relatives and unhelpful siblings will think you have a magic wand you can wave. If the person is declared incompetent then Health POA can make some choices, but good luck. Sometimes it takes a lot of meds to get the difficult ones to comply. It's pretty miserable. Sure you go for guardianship too. Someone on here kept saying how easy it was. Not for us.


Doctor here. I can’t say whether someone is competent or incompetent, only a judge can do that. I can only say whether or not someone has the capacity to make a particular urgent medical decision in that moment.
If you drank bleach because you thought that you were given godlike powers, you accidentally blotted out the sun, and you needed to cleanse yourself, then you don’t have the capacity to decide whether or not to have your esophagus removed before you die. You cannot understand the risks and benefits due to delusions that you are immortal.

If you don’t want to have a c-section because you believe in natural birth, and you understand that your baby might die, then you have that right. Despite the claims of people saying they were forced into c-sections, that’s not how it works in the US. I have been in the room and watched babies die while their mothers refused a section.

I cannot force people to make the choices that I think they should make. I can not force heroin addicted young men and women into rehab. I cannot force people with paranoid schizophrenia to live in an apartment instead of a homeless shelter, and I cannot force elderly people into a nursing facility. I know that you think that I don’t get the fear that you are living with, but I do. It’s painful. I’m sorry that you are going through this. I hope that you find a community that can support you.
Anonymous
Post 12/30/2021 09:56     Subject: For those well-meaning social workers
OP here. For those starting this journey, beware. All the social worker did was ask me who could pay, and would not answer any questions about what Medicare benefits they are entitled to in a meaningful way. She went as far as asking me about which relatives had money and which didn’t. I thought that was beyond the pale.
Anonymous
Post 12/30/2021 09:52     Subject: For those well-meaning social workers
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm a social worker and deal with situations like this frequently. OP, your expectations are way off. First of all - our job is to help our clients self determine. If you and I were having this conversation, I would be empathizing and validating your concerns but nothing else. Your family members don't want to do what you want them to do. As far as I can tell from your post they are competent and making their own decisions. So what you want really doesn't matter. If you want something to change, work with your family members directly. We social workers are not in the business of pushing our clients to do what their nasty/entitled/condescending relatives want them to do.

Also - our elder care system sucks and is lacking in so many ways.


. We social workers are not in the business of pushing our clients to do what their nasty/entitled/condescending relatives want them to do. . Wow, here you go, OP. This is pretty telling as to what SW think of the tired, stressed, scared, overwhelmed family members with all the responsibilities but none of the authority, trying to help.


The funny thing is, my nasty/entitled/condescending self only wants my relatives to live out the rest of their lives stress-free, in a free to them home, so they can play bridge and mah-jong and simply ENJOY. I’m an awful person, I know
Anonymous
Post 12/30/2021 01:06     Subject: For those well-meaning social workers
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm a social worker and deal with situations like this frequently. OP, your expectations are way off. First of all - our job is to help our clients self determine. If you and I were having this conversation, I would be empathizing and validating your concerns but nothing else. Your family members don't want to do what you want them to do. As far as I can tell from your post they are competent and making their own decisions. So what you want really doesn't matter. If you want something to change, work with your family members directly. We social workers are not in the business of pushing our clients to do what their nasty/entitled/condescending relatives want them to do.

Also - our elder care system sucks and is lacking in so many ways.


. We social workers are not in the business of pushing our clients to do what their nasty/entitled/condescending relatives want them to do. . Wow, here you go, OP. This is pretty telling as to what SW think of the tired, stressed, scared, overwhelmed family members with all the responsibilities but none of the authority, trying to help.


NO surprise at all. I was actually shamed today for asking what benefits my aunt was entitled to - that she's paid for involuntarily for most of her life.
Anonymous
Post 12/29/2021 23:13     Subject: For those well-meaning social workers
Anonymous wrote:I'm a social worker and deal with situations like this frequently. OP, your expectations are way off. First of all - our job is to help our clients self determine. If you and I were having this conversation, I would be empathizing and validating your concerns but nothing else. Your family members don't want to do what you want them to do. As far as I can tell from your post they are competent and making their own decisions. So what you want really doesn't matter. If you want something to change, work with your family members directly. We social workers are not in the business of pushing our clients to do what their nasty/entitled/condescending relatives want them to do.

Also - our elder care system sucks and is lacking in so many ways.


. We social workers are not in the business of pushing our clients to do what their nasty/entitled/condescending relatives want them to do. . Wow, here you go, OP. This is pretty telling as to what SW think of the tired, stressed, scared, overwhelmed family members with all the responsibilities but none of the authority, trying to help.
Anonymous
Post 12/29/2021 23:06     Subject: For those well-meaning social workers
Anonymous wrote:I lived through a similar situation with my parents and it almost ruined my own health. I really think that the government needs to help elderly people who are sick and broke. The resources of a family are rarely enough to care for sick, aging parents. Other countries take better care of elderly through government resources, the US is failing the elderly.


My cousin had a stroke from the stress. I get it.
Anonymous
Post 12/29/2021 23:05     Subject: Re:For those well-meaning social workers
Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm really sorry that there are people on this thread taking shots at you/telling you that you need anger management/saying you're not a nice person/whatever. They haven't been there, and they don't know what it is like. And I totally get how hard it can be to talk to the SW who is the professional who is supposed to be helping your parents and to have that professional unwilling to recognize that the parents are making a very bad choice that affects the whole family, not just them.

It's easy to say "hire help" but then the parents reject the help or bully the help. I've had people quit on my elderly relative after one afternoon and tell their managers that they will never set foot in her house again. Out there just isn't money for help. People have no idea how expensive it is. And as the child, what are your options? It's fine to say "it's the parents' money and the parents' choice and if they go bankrupt that's their choice," but the truth is that you as the child will feel enormous internal and external pressure to start paying their bills.

I'm really sorry - this stuff is so difficult. Hang in there.


Thank you SO much for your kindness. It's been hard but they are finally seeing the light themselves, due to my aunt's struggles. Reminds me of a friend who's parents would not leave until their neighbor had to be helicoptered out. That changed their minds REAL fast.

Hope all is well with you. Shout out here if you need any support. I've got your back.