Anonymous wrote:Some of you on DCUM are out of touch with the reality.
Middle class does not mean:
- Not having to worry about money
- Having a house in the most attractive neighborhood.
- Sending kids to the best schools in the state
- Having college fully funded
- Multiple vacations

If that's what you think you should have to be middle class, you are wrong. That's what makes you upper middle class or rich.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is middle class - not $150K:

https://www.businessinsider.com/personal-finance/how-much-to-earn-middle-class-in-state-2021-4

+1. This is a tool you can use to see where you actually fall. It accounts for HHI, family size, and location.

https://grow.acorns.com/middle-class-calculator/

Thank you. Middle class isn’t a feeling. A family of 3 earning 400k isn’t middle class even if they feel that way.

Anonymous wrote:I don’t conceptualize it because it doesn’t apply to me, since I make what I make. What an odd question.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do think that middle class no longer refers to the middle of the income spectrum. Historically, in Europe the middle classes were people in the approx top 20% of the population. Just underneath the 1% who were primarily the aristocracy. The rest were the working classes, and then the outright poor.

When I consider the assumptions for a standard middle of the pack American middle class lifestyle, it means having a standard SFH, say 1800-2200 sqft, two cars that aren't junkers, one trip a year to a beach, some savings for rainy days and retirement, being able to help with college, going out to dinner once in a while - that's what people took for granted as a middle class life in the 1980s. The difference from the 1950s was that it could be had on one income in the 50s, in the 80s it was taking two incomes but it was still a middle class life.

Today? I'd think 150k is really the threshold when you can do this for a family. A family of four living off 80k in most metro area is not middle class, but working class.

There's been a lot of talk about the hollowing out of the middle classes and growing income disparities, and this is a big part of it.

Your idea of middle class is skewed. Middle class don’t take yearly beach vacations, two newer cars and larger homes.

It's probably not as warped as a poor family thinking they're still middle class.

In what society is a yearly family vacation not a middle class thing to do? Or driving two basic cars? Or where a 2,000 sqft house is a larger house?

A PP above commented that being middle class meant you had more than just addressing your basic needs.

I think a pretty good gauge of what a smack dab in the middle middle class HHI should be is a pair of married schoolteachers. In Howard County, two teachers with 15 years' teaching experience (so early 40s, prime family age) will have a joint HHI of between 150-160, because they will make between 75 to 80k each. 150k is very much the "real life" middle class HHI for a family in most metro areas in order to be able to afford a modest house, run two decent cars, and have a decent life that is a bit more than just addressing your basic needs. This is corroborated by that the national average price for a SFH is 360kish, which is what a family making 150k can afford. If that's the average price for a single family house, then it does strongly suggest the average smack dab in the middle class income is 150kish.

That’s not middle class. Upper middle maybe but middle class no. What you are describing is upper middle class.

Very few people would call married teachers upper middle class. Or a 360k house an upper middle class house. In Howard, for example, that buys you a simple townhouse. The hypothetical teacher couple could also chose to commute from Carroll County where the 360k can get them a very modest SFH. But in neither case are they upper middle class.

What's happened is that the overton window for a middle class has shifted upwards. You're trapping yourself into thinking that middle class has to be right in the middle, aka median income. Keep in mind a median income is disproportionately skewed by singles, couples without children, retirees and all that. For a functioning family unit of two working parents and children it's a very different story.

That's why the average price for a SFH nationally is 360k, because that represents the real middle class family HHI. Otherwise you are arguing that the middle classes can't afford SFH.

You need to get out of the DC mindset, but yes, its not middle class. It sucks money does not go as far in this area, but its not middle class.

So everyone is rich apparently.

We live in a 1000 square foot house we bought for around $400K. Middle class cannot afford our house. Be real.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do think that middle class no longer refers to the middle of the income spectrum. Historically, in Europe the middle classes were people in the approx top 20% of the population. Just underneath the 1% who were primarily the aristocracy. The rest were the working classes, and then the outright poor.

When I consider the assumptions for a standard middle of the pack American middle class lifestyle, it means having a standard SFH, say 1800-2200 sqft, two cars that aren't junkers, one trip a year to a beach, some savings for rainy days and retirement, being able to help with college, going out to dinner once in a while - that's what people took for granted as a middle class life in the 1980s. The difference from the 1950s was that it could be had on one income in the 50s, in the 80s it was taking two incomes but it was still a middle class life.

Today? I'd think 150k is really the threshold when you can do this for a family. A family of four living off 80k in most metro area is not middle class, but working class.

There's been a lot of talk about the hollowing out of the middle classes and growing income disparities, and this is a big part of it.

Your idea of middle class is skewed. Middle class don’t take yearly beach vacations, two newer cars and larger homes.

It's probably not as warped as a poor family thinking they're still middle class.

In what society is a yearly family vacation not a middle class thing to do? Or driving two basic cars? Or where a 2,000 sqft house is a larger house?

A PP above commented that being middle class meant you had more than just addressing your basic needs.

I think a pretty good gauge of what a smack dab in the middle middle class HHI should be is a pair of married schoolteachers. In Howard County, two teachers with 15 years' teaching experience (so early 40s, prime family age) will have a joint HHI of between 150-160, because they will make between 75 to 80k each. 150k is very much the "real life" middle class HHI for a family in most metro areas in order to be able to afford a modest house, run two decent cars, and have a decent life that is a bit more than just addressing your basic needs. This is corroborated by that the national average price for a SFH is 360kish, which is what a family making 150k can afford. If that's the average price for a single family house, then it does strongly suggest the average smack dab in the middle class income is 150kish.

That’s not middle class. Upper middle maybe but middle class no. What you are describing is upper middle class.

Very few people would call married teachers upper middle class. Or a 360k house an upper middle class house. In Howard, for example, that buys you a simple townhouse. The hypothetical teacher couple could also chose to commute from Carroll County where the 360k can get them a very modest SFH. But in neither case are they upper middle class.

What's happened is that the overton window for a middle class has shifted upwards. You're trapping yourself into thinking that middle class has to be right in the middle, aka median income. Keep in mind a median income is disproportionately skewed by singles, couples without children, retirees and all that. For a functioning family unit of two working parents and children it's a very different story.

That's why the average price for a SFH nationally is 360k, because that represents the real middle class family HHI. Otherwise you are arguing that the middle classes can't afford SFH.

You need to get out of the DC mindset, but yes, its not middle class. It sucks money does not go as far in this area, but its not middle class.

So everyone is rich apparently.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do think that middle class no longer refers to the middle of the income spectrum. Historically, in Europe the middle classes were people in the approx top 20% of the population. Just underneath the 1% who were primarily the aristocracy. The rest were the working classes, and then the outright poor.

When I consider the assumptions for a standard middle of the pack American middle class lifestyle, it means having a standard SFH, say 1800-2200 sqft, two cars that aren't junkers, one trip a year to a beach, some savings for rainy days and retirement, being able to help with college, going out to dinner once in a while - that's what people took for granted as a middle class life in the 1980s. The difference from the 1950s was that it could be had on one income in the 50s, in the 80s it was taking two incomes but it was still a middle class life.

Today? I'd think 150k is really the threshold when you can do this for a family. A family of four living off 80k in most metro area is not middle class, but working class.

There's been a lot of talk about the hollowing out of the middle classes and growing income disparities, and this is a big part of it.

Your idea of middle class is skewed. Middle class don’t take yearly beach vacations, two newer cars and larger homes.

It's probably not as warped as a poor family thinking they're still middle class.

In what society is a yearly family vacation not a middle class thing to do? Or driving two basic cars? Or where a 2,000 sqft house is a larger house?

A PP above commented that being middle class meant you had more than just addressing your basic needs.

I think a pretty good gauge of what a smack dab in the middle middle class HHI should be is a pair of married schoolteachers. In Howard County, two teachers with 15 years' teaching experience (so early 40s, prime family age) will have a joint HHI of between 150-160, because they will make between 75 to 80k each. 150k is very much the "real life" middle class HHI for a family in most metro areas in order to be able to afford a modest house, run two decent cars, and have a decent life that is a bit more than just addressing your basic needs. This is corroborated by that the national average price for a SFH is 360kish, which is what a family making 150k can afford. If that's the average price for a single family house, then it does strongly suggest the average smack dab in the middle class income is 150kish.

That’s not middle class. Upper middle maybe but middle class no. What you are describing is upper middle class.

Very few people would call married teachers upper middle class. Or a 360k house an upper middle class house. In Howard, for example, that buys you a simple townhouse. The hypothetical teacher couple could also chose to commute from Carroll County where the 360k can get them a very modest SFH. But in neither case are they upper middle class.

What's happened is that the overton window for a middle class has shifted upwards. You're trapping yourself into thinking that middle class has to be right in the middle, aka median income. Keep in mind a median income is disproportionately skewed by singles, couples without children, retirees and all that. For a functioning family unit of two working parents and children it's a very different story.

That's why the average price for a SFH nationally is 360k, because that represents the real middle class family HHI. Otherwise you are arguing that the middle classes can't afford SFH.

You need to get out of the DC mindset, but yes, its not middle class. It sucks money does not go as far in this area, but its not middle class.

So everyone is rich apparently.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do think that middle class no longer refers to the middle of the income spectrum. Historically, in Europe the middle classes were people in the approx top 20% of the population. Just underneath the 1% who were primarily the aristocracy. The rest were the working classes, and then the outright poor.

When I consider the assumptions for a standard middle of the pack American middle class lifestyle, it means having a standard SFH, say 1800-2200 sqft, two cars that aren't junkers, one trip a year to a beach, some savings for rainy days and retirement, being able to help with college, going out to dinner once in a while - that's what people took for granted as a middle class life in the 1980s. The difference from the 1950s was that it could be had on one income in the 50s, in the 80s it was taking two incomes but it was still a middle class life.

Today? I'd think 150k is really the threshold when you can do this for a family. A family of four living off 80k in most metro area is not middle class, but working class.

There's been a lot of talk about the hollowing out of the middle classes and growing income disparities, and this is a big part of it.

Your idea of middle class is skewed. Middle class don’t take yearly beach vacations, two newer cars and larger homes.

It's probably not as warped as a poor family thinking they're still middle class.

In what society is a yearly family vacation not a middle class thing to do? Or driving two basic cars? Or where a 2,000 sqft house is a larger house?

A PP above commented that being middle class meant you had more than just addressing your basic needs.

I think a pretty good gauge of what a smack dab in the middle middle class HHI should be is a pair of married schoolteachers. In Howard County, two teachers with 15 years' teaching experience (so early 40s, prime family age) will have a joint HHI of between 150-160, because they will make between 75 to 80k each. 150k is very much the "real life" middle class HHI for a family in most metro areas in order to be able to afford a modest house, run two decent cars, and have a decent life that is a bit more than just addressing your basic needs. This is corroborated by that the national average price for a SFH is 360kish, which is what a family making 150k can afford. If that's the average price for a single family house, then it does strongly suggest the average smack dab in the middle class income is 150kish.

That’s not middle class. Upper middle maybe but middle class no. What you are describing is upper middle class.

Very few people would call married teachers upper middle class. Or a 360k house an upper middle class house. In Howard, for example, that buys you a simple townhouse. The hypothetical teacher couple could also chose to commute from Carroll County where the 360k can get them a very modest SFH. But in neither case are they upper middle class.

What's happened is that the overton window for a middle class has shifted upwards. You're trapping yourself into thinking that middle class has to be right in the middle, aka median income. Keep in mind a median income is disproportionately skewed by singles, couples without children, retirees and all that. For a functioning family unit of two working parents and children it's a very different story.

That's why the average price for a SFH nationally is 360k, because that represents the real middle class family HHI. Otherwise you are arguing that the middle classes can't afford SFH.

You need to get out of the DC mindset, but yes, its not middle class. It sucks money does not go as far in this area, but its not middle class.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do think that middle class no longer refers to the middle of the income spectrum. Historically, in Europe the middle classes were people in the approx top 20% of the population. Just underneath the 1% who were primarily the aristocracy. The rest were the working classes, and then the outright poor.

When I consider the assumptions for a standard middle of the pack American middle class lifestyle, it means having a standard SFH, say 1800-2200 sqft, two cars that aren't junkers, one trip a year to a beach, some savings for rainy days and retirement, being able to help with college, going out to dinner once in a while - that's what people took for granted as a middle class life in the 1980s. The difference from the 1950s was that it could be had on one income in the 50s, in the 80s it was taking two incomes but it was still a middle class life.

Today? I'd think 150k is really the threshold when you can do this for a family. A family of four living off 80k in most metro area is not middle class, but working class.

There's been a lot of talk about the hollowing out of the middle classes and growing income disparities, and this is a big part of it.

Your idea of middle class is skewed. Middle class don’t take yearly beach vacations, two newer cars and larger homes.

It's probably not as warped as a poor family thinking they're still middle class.

In what society is a yearly family vacation not a middle class thing to do? Or driving two basic cars? Or where a 2,000 sqft house is a larger house?

A PP above commented that being middle class meant you had more than just addressing your basic needs.

I think a pretty good gauge of what a smack dab in the middle middle class HHI should be is a pair of married schoolteachers. In Howard County, two teachers with 15 years' teaching experience (so early 40s, prime family age) will have a joint HHI of between 150-160, because they will make between 75 to 80k each. 150k is very much the "real life" middle class HHI for a family in most metro areas in order to be able to afford a modest house, run two decent cars, and have a decent life that is a bit more than just addressing your basic needs. This is corroborated by that the national average price for a SFH is 360kish, which is what a family making 150k can afford. If that's the average price for a single family house, then it does strongly suggest the average smack dab in the middle class income is 150kish.

That’s not middle class. Upper middle maybe but middle class no. What you are describing is upper middle class.

Very few people would call married teachers upper middle class. Or a 360k house an upper middle class house. In Howard, for example, that buys you a simple townhouse. The hypothetical teacher couple could also chose to commute from Carroll County where the 360k can get them a very modest SFH. But in neither case are they upper middle class.

What's happened is that the overton window for a middle class has shifted upwards. You're trapping yourself into thinking that middle class has to be right in the middle, aka median income. Keep in mind a median income is disproportionately skewed by singles, couples without children, retirees and all that. For a functioning family unit of two working parents and children it's a very different story.

That's why the average price for a SFH nationally is 360k, because that represents the real middle class family HHI. Otherwise you are arguing that the middle classes can't afford SFH.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do think that middle class no longer refers to the middle of the income spectrum. Historically, in Europe the middle classes were people in the approx top 20% of the population. Just underneath the 1% who were primarily the aristocracy. The rest were the working classes, and then the outright poor.

When I consider the assumptions for a standard middle of the pack American middle class lifestyle, it means having a standard SFH, say 1800-2200 sqft, two cars that aren't junkers, one trip a year to a beach, some savings for rainy days and retirement, being able to help with college, going out to dinner once in a while - that's what people took for granted as a middle class life in the 1980s. The difference from the 1950s was that it could be had on one income in the 50s, in the 80s it was taking two incomes but it was still a middle class life.

Today? I'd think 150k is really the threshold when you can do this for a family. A family of four living off 80k in most metro area is not middle class, but working class.

There's been a lot of talk about the hollowing out of the middle classes and growing income disparities, and this is a big part of it.

Your idea of middle class is skewed. Middle class don’t take yearly beach vacations, two newer cars and larger homes.

It's probably not as warped as a poor family thinking they're still middle class.

In what society is a yearly family vacation not a middle class thing to do? Or driving two basic cars? Or where a 2,000 sqft house is a larger house?

A PP above commented that being middle class meant you had more than just addressing your basic needs.

I think a pretty good gauge of what a smack dab in the middle middle class HHI should be is a pair of married schoolteachers. In Howard County, two teachers with 15 years' teaching experience (so early 40s, prime family age) will have a joint HHI of between 150-160, because they will make between 75 to 80k each. 150k is very much the "real life" middle class HHI for a family in most metro areas in order to be able to afford a modest house, run two decent cars, and have a decent life that is a bit more than just addressing your basic needs. This is corroborated by that the national average price for a SFH is 360kish, which is what a family making 150k can afford. If that's the average price for a single family house, then it does strongly suggest the average smack dab in the middle class income is 150kish.

That’s not middle class. Upper middle maybe but middle class no. What you are describing is upper middle class.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do think that middle class no longer refers to the middle of the income spectrum. Historically, in Europe the middle classes were people in the approx top 20% of the population. Just underneath the 1% who were primarily the aristocracy. The rest were the working classes, and then the outright poor.

When I consider the assumptions for a standard middle of the pack American middle class lifestyle, it means having a standard SFH, say 1800-2200 sqft, two cars that aren't junkers, one trip a year to a beach, some savings for rainy days and retirement, being able to help with college, going out to dinner once in a while - that's what people took for granted as a middle class life in the 1980s. The difference from the 1950s was that it could be had on one income in the 50s, in the 80s it was taking two incomes but it was still a middle class life.

Today? I'd think 150k is really the threshold when you can do this for a family. A family of four living off 80k in most metro area is not middle class, but working class.

There's been a lot of talk about the hollowing out of the middle classes and growing income disparities, and this is a big part of it.

Your idea of middle class is skewed. Middle class don’t take yearly beach vacations, two newer cars and larger homes.

It's probably not as warped as a poor family thinking they're still middle class.

In what society is a yearly family vacation not a middle class thing to do? Or driving two basic cars? Or where a 2,000 sqft house is a larger house?

A PP above commented that being middle class meant you had more than just addressing your basic needs.

I think a pretty good gauge of what a smack dab in the middle middle class HHI should be is a pair of married schoolteachers. In Howard County, two teachers with 15 years' teaching experience (so early 40s, prime family age) will have a joint HHI of between 150-160, because they will make between 75 to 80k each. 150k is very much the "real life" middle class HHI for a family in most metro areas in order to be able to afford a modest house, run two decent cars, and have a decent life that is a bit more than just addressing your basic needs. This is corroborated by that the national average price for a SFH is 360kish, which is what a family making 150k can afford. If that's the average price for a single family house, then it does strongly suggest the average smack dab in the middle class income is 150kish.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do think that middle class no longer refers to the middle of the income spectrum. Historically, in Europe the middle classes were people in the approx top 20% of the population. Just underneath the 1% who were primarily the aristocracy. The rest were the working classes, and then the outright poor.

When I consider the assumptions for a standard middle of the pack American middle class lifestyle, it means having a standard SFH, say 1800-2200 sqft, two cars that aren't junkers, one trip a year to a beach, some savings for rainy days and retirement, being able to help with college, going out to dinner once in a while - that's what people took for granted as a middle class life in the 1980s. The difference from the 1950s was that it could be had on one income in the 50s, in the 80s it was taking two incomes but it was still a middle class life.

Today? I'd think 150k is really the threshold when you can do this for a family. A family of four living off 80k in most metro area is not middle class, but working class.

There's been a lot of talk about the hollowing out of the middle classes and growing income disparities, and this is a big part of it.

Your idea of middle class is skewed. Middle class don’t take yearly beach vacations, two newer cars and larger homes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We used to make HHI 150k and now make over $550k. Our lives have changed considerably. While we don’t feel wealthy, we’re not worried about money. But we still budget. I spent a very long time paying off law school loans. That limited savings. Now that loans have been paid, all extra cash goes to savings. Our home is not new construction but an older home that we renovated. Kids in public, as private would kill savings.

With increased income, we save more, travel more and don’t worry about most kids’ extracurricular costs (music, sports, private tutoring). At 150, we were stressed about groceries, daycare, travel costs and just about everything. We can breath more easily but I know that we’re behind in retirement bc we only recently increased income to comfortably level

This sounds like a spending issue if you stress at that income.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes it is middle class. I standard government or military salary is middle class. If you have to live far from the city and have a long commute to work in order to comfortably afford housing, you are middle class.

The point is that people in the >400k range don’t need to make those compromises. That is the difference. Whdd we n you are rich you can have what you want.

$150 is Not middle class. You don't have to have a far commute, you just get a smaller house, like we did. And very few people need to live close to DC/city. We don't.

At under $150K we live very comfortably. Kids are in multiple activities (expensive), private weekly music lessons, almost paid off house, college savings (at this point enough to pay for a state school, room and board and extras), retirement savings, paid cash for our last vehicle and will for our next. And, we do things like carry out a few times a week. Its how you spend your money. If you choose crazy high housing costs, sure, you can be house poor but is poor financial decisions not middle class.

PP, when did you buy your home? You say it's almost paid off, so did you buy a long time ago, put down a huge downpayment, or double-up on payments? What is your PITI?

100% thus person bought 20+ years ago. That is not the reality of someone today warning 150K. There are 0 homes or condos under 400K.

There are plenty of houses in Wheaton, Silver Spring and other areas of MoCo for that price. We have a 900 square foot house. Its very doable. Buying a condo is dumb as you have HOA fees. But, there are plenty of condos for that price or less too. Maybe not in DC but not everyone wants to live in DC and you live where you can afford, not always where you want. We also bought a shack that no one else except builders and flippers wanted and had to invest money in repairs.

...what?

NP here. I live in DTSS, and only bought 3 years ago, without a huge budget. There were very few non-condos that were under $500k, let alone $400k, and the few homes under $500k were 1) major fixer-uppers and/or 2) very very small (<1000 sq ft) or 3) townhomes with condo fees, of which there aren't many anyway, like a few dozen that even exist, forget about them coming up for sale more than 1 or 2 at a time. This also meant bidding wars that usually pushed them over $500k.

But under $400k? Not really, no. I just looked at realtor.com and found 0 non-condos under $400k in SS below the Beltway.

Now, Wheaton? I'm seeing a few under $400k, but believe me, I looked at those 3 years ago, too, and they are either sort of "half-townhomes"-- like duplexes, more like 2-3 story <1000 sq ft condos-- AND they have condo fees-- or a couple SFH that were very small, like yours-- 900 sq ft, 2 BR, 1 BA.

Silver Spring being unincorporated and half the county having a "Silver Spring" address-- sure, you can go up closer to Leisure World or even close to Howard County and get something modest, but totally reasonable for under $400k. You won't have a million options, but you'll definitely have a few if you want to live up Columbia Pike or wherever.

Before we bought our SFH-- about 1200 sq ft for us and we could afford it only because we rent out the basement-- we lived in a 900 sq ft apartment with a kid. I am always happier with less space in a more convenient location, so this was fine enough at the time, pre-pandemic, with one kid <5 years old. And of course, lots of families make do with more kids and less space. But in general, people with the average 2 kids are going to want/"need" more than 1000 sq ft. Ideally at least 1200.

So, yeah, actually-- virtually no options for that in "Silver Spring/Wheaton" under $400k without a condo/HOA fee.

Want vs need are two different things. We have 1000 square feet and yes double would be nice but that is a want not need. There are some houses around $400k. You may not want them but then that’s on you.