Anonymous
10/25/2021 12:35
Subject: Why isn’t the four-year sentence for a miscarriage a bigger story?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This is all an attempt by pro-lifers to establish that a fetus has the same rights as a person. Don't forget the pregnant Alabama woman who went to jail for getting in a fight and being shot by *someone else* . So-called "pro-lifers" want to be able to control every aspect of pregnant women's lives.
People have been charged with homicide for killing a fetus or double homicide for killing a pregnant woman. But then we want to say that any decision that a pregnant woman makes, whether legal or illegal, should be without consequence to herself.
It's possible to reconcile those positions but it's also very easy to see how other people cannot reconcile them. Is a 15 week old fetus a person or not? We want to say sometimes yes, sometimes no. But different people see the line in different places in different circumstances. It's definitely not a settled area, in courts or in our society.
A 15-week old fetus is NOT a person. It cannot survive outside the mother. That is not debatable. Men don't pay child support for a 15-week old fetus. We don't put it on our insurance plan or claim it on our taxes.
I don't see why this isn't an equal protection issue - a man and woman are both in possession of and doing meth, but the woman is charged with a crime against her fetus as well?
To be clear, do you also object to charging someone with double homicide when they kill a woman who is 15 weeks pregnant? Or do you agree in that case?
I am the pp, and no, I don't think people should be charged with a double homicide in the case of a fetus who couldn't live outside the mother. I'm not a lawyer, but I think there is also an area of difference based on what you do to yourself vs what others do to you. I.e. attempted suicide isn't a crime, but attempted homicide certainly is.
Anonymous
10/25/2021 12:31
Subject: Why isn’t the four-year sentence for a miscarriage a bigger story?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This is all an attempt by pro-lifers to establish that a fetus has the same rights as a person. Don't forget the pregnant Alabama woman who went to jail for getting in a fight and being shot by *someone else* . So-called "pro-lifers" want to be able to control every aspect of pregnant women's lives.
People have been charged with homicide for killing a fetus or double homicide for killing a pregnant woman. But then we want to say that any decision that a pregnant woman makes, whether legal or illegal, should be without consequence to herself.
It's possible to reconcile those positions but it's also very easy to see how other people cannot reconcile them. Is a 15 week old fetus a person or not? We want to say sometimes yes, sometimes no. But different people see the line in different places in different circumstances. It's definitely not a settled area, in courts or in our society.
A 15-week old fetus is NOT a person. It cannot survive outside the mother. That is not debatable. Men don't pay child support for a 15-week old fetus. We don't put it on our insurance plan or claim it on our taxes.
I don't see why this isn't an equal protection issue - a man and woman are both in possession of and doing meth, but the woman is charged with a crime against her fetus as well?
To be clear, do you also object to charging someone with double homicide when they kill a woman who is 15 weeks pregnant? Or do you agree in that case?
DP.
The difference is a matter of choice. It is the woman’s body. It is not up to someone else what happens to her body
I agree with that, personally, but the inconsistency is obvious and to some people, they cannot reconcile it. I was curious how PP felt about the different issues.
Anonymous
10/25/2021 12:28
Subject: Re:Why isn’t the four-year sentence for a miscarriage a bigger story?
Anonymous wrote:Why? Because she is brown and poor, and has a history of drug addiction. If she were white the other two would be reason for compassion.
Bingo.
Anonymous
10/25/2021 12:26
Subject: Why isn’t the four-year sentence for a miscarriage a bigger story?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This is all an attempt by pro-lifers to establish that a fetus has the same rights as a person. Don't forget the pregnant Alabama woman who went to jail for getting in a fight and being shot by *someone else* . So-called "pro-lifers" want to be able to control every aspect of pregnant women's lives.
People have been charged with homicide for killing a fetus or double homicide for killing a pregnant woman. But then we want to say that any decision that a pregnant woman makes, whether legal or illegal, should be without consequence to herself.
It's possible to reconcile those positions but it's also very easy to see how other people cannot reconcile them. Is a 15 week old fetus a person or not? We want to say sometimes yes, sometimes no. But different people see the line in different places in different circumstances. It's definitely not a settled area, in courts or in our society.
A 15-week old fetus is NOT a person. It cannot survive outside the mother. That is not debatable. Men don't pay child support for a 15-week old fetus. We don't put it on our insurance plan or claim it on our taxes.
I don't see why this isn't an equal protection issue - a man and woman are both in possession of and doing meth, but the woman is charged with a crime against her fetus as well?
To be clear, do you also object to charging someone with double homicide when they kill a woman who is 15 weeks pregnant? Or do you agree in that case?
DP.
The difference is a matter of choice. It is the woman’s body. It is not up to someone else what happens to her body
Anonymous
10/25/2021 12:22
Subject: Why isn’t the four-year sentence for a miscarriage a bigger story?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This is all an attempt by pro-lifers to establish that a fetus has the same rights as a person. Don't forget the pregnant Alabama woman who went to jail for getting in a fight and being shot by *someone else* . So-called "pro-lifers" want to be able to control every aspect of pregnant women's lives.
People have been charged with homicide for killing a fetus or double homicide for killing a pregnant woman. But then we want to say that any decision that a pregnant woman makes, whether legal or illegal, should be without consequence to herself.
It's possible to reconcile those positions but it's also very easy to see how other people cannot reconcile them. Is a 15 week old fetus a person or not? We want to say sometimes yes, sometimes no. But different people see the line in different places in different circumstances. It's definitely not a settled area, in courts or in our society.
A 15-week old fetus is NOT a person. It cannot survive outside the mother. That is not debatable. Men don't pay child support for a 15-week old fetus. We don't put it on our insurance plan or claim it on our taxes.
I don't see why this isn't an equal protection issue - a man and woman are both in possession of and doing meth, but the woman is charged with a crime against her fetus as well?
To be clear, do you also object to charging someone with double homicide when they kill a woman who is 15 weeks pregnant? Or do you agree in that case?
Anonymous
10/25/2021 12:20
Subject: Why isn’t the four-year sentence for a miscarriage a bigger story?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This is all an attempt by pro-lifers to establish that a fetus has the same rights as a person. Don't forget the pregnant Alabama woman who went to jail for getting in a fight and being shot by *someone else* . So-called "pro-lifers" want to be able to control every aspect of pregnant women's lives.
People have been charged with homicide for killing a fetus or double homicide for killing a pregnant woman. But then we want to say that any decision that a pregnant woman makes, whether legal or illegal, should be without consequence to herself.
It's possible to reconcile those positions but it's also very easy to see how other people cannot reconcile them. Is a 15 week old fetus a person or not? We want to say sometimes yes, sometimes no. But different people see the line in different places in different circumstances. It's definitely not a settled area, in courts or in our society.
A 15-week old fetus is NOT a person. It cannot survive outside the mother. That is not debatable. Men don't pay child support for a 15-week old fetus. We don't put it on our insurance plan or claim it on our taxes.
I don't see why this isn't an equal protection issue - a man and woman are both in possession of and doing meth, but the woman is charged with a crime against her fetus as well?
Anonymous
10/25/2021 12:19
Subject: Why isn’t the four-year sentence for a miscarriage a bigger story?
Anonymous wrote:Sorry not much sympathy. I was just pregnant. There were so many resources if you were a smoker, drug addict or alcoholic to get you sober. There were hotlines to call and lots of free resources. This baby shouldn’t have had to suffer. I’m very pro choice and she should have had an abortion.
She could have had an abortion. It would have been legal. So how does she get four years in jail for having the same end result as an abortion? I'll note that I'm not "very pro-choice". I'm very ambivalent in my feelings about it, but I prefer to live in a society where it is legal than one where it is not. I don't really understand how someone could call themselves "very pro choice" and not be horrified by this case.
Anonymous
10/25/2021 12:13
Subject: Why isn’t the four-year sentence for a miscarriage a bigger story?
Anonymous wrote:This is all an attempt by pro-lifers to establish that a fetus has the same rights as a person. Don't forget the pregnant Alabama woman who went to jail for getting in a fight and being shot by *someone else* . So-called "pro-lifers" want to be able to control every aspect of pregnant women's lives.
People have been charged with homicide for killing a fetus or double homicide for killing a pregnant woman. But then we want to say that any decision that a pregnant woman makes, whether legal or illegal, should be without consequence to herself.
It's possible to reconcile those positions but it's also very easy to see how other people cannot reconcile them. Is a 15 week old fetus a person or not? We want to say sometimes yes, sometimes no. But different people see the line in different places in different circumstances. It's definitely not a settled area, in courts or in our society.
Anonymous
10/25/2021 12:06
Subject: Why isn’t the four-year sentence for a miscarriage a bigger story?
She was between 15-17 weeks. I’m almost any state, it is still legal to have an abortion at this point.
Anonymous
10/25/2021 12:01
Subject: Why isn’t the four-year sentence for a miscarriage a bigger story?
This is all an attempt by pro-lifers to establish that a fetus has the same rights as a person. Don't forget the pregnant Alabama woman who went to jail for getting in a fight and being shot by *someone else* . So-called "pro-lifers" want to be able to control every aspect of pregnant women's lives.
Anonymous
10/25/2021 11:57
Subject: Why isn’t the four-year sentence for a miscarriage a bigger story?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I’m just glad that poor kid never had to be born to such a loser mom. At least she won’t be having another drug addicted baby for the next four years.
100% this
This is so stupid. Laws like these won’t hit home with UMC women until it’s too late.
Imagine a college boyfriend who’s angry you broke up with him retaliating by saying you were drinking so you caused your miscarriage. Or better yet, a contentious divorce. What better way to get everything than to put the ex-wife in jail? Have you ever taken medication for depression? Anxiety? A glass of wine? An edible? Deli meat? Sushi? Exercised?
Once you open the door to criminalizing miscarriages, all adult women can be a target any time.
Everything in your list is legal. Do you understand the difference between sushi and crystal meth? One is ordinary life, the other is illegal to possess.
This is a *really* naive view.
It might be, but you can't get to a misdemeanor without a misdemeanor.
Start with jaywalking or public intoxication or something like that. Not sushi.
The concept you're looking for is endangering a fetus and it's already illegal in many states. Stuff like this gets fit under that envelope or not depending on who the mom is. It's outrageous. No one should be here defending it.
The examples are exactly the same.
A 20 year old who drank alcohol has committed a misdemeanor.
A middle aged mom who takes an edible has committed a misdemeanor (in all but a few locations.)
Both these hypotheticals include possession of controlled substances which is a misdemeanor crime. This is no different than the woman who went to jail for having a miscarriage and a history of using meth.
Anonymous
10/25/2021 11:50
Subject: Why isn’t the four-year sentence for a miscarriage a bigger story?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I’m just glad that poor kid never had to be born to such a loser mom. At least she won’t be having another drug addicted baby for the next four years.
100% this
This is so stupid. Laws like these won’t hit home with UMC women until it’s too late.
Imagine a college boyfriend who’s angry you broke up with him retaliating by saying you were drinking so you caused your miscarriage. Or better yet, a contentious divorce. What better way to get everything than to put the ex-wife in jail? Have you ever taken medication for depression? Anxiety? A glass of wine? An edible? Deli meat? Sushi? Exercised?
Once you open the door to criminalizing miscarriages, all adult women can be a target any time.
Everything in your list is legal. Do you understand the difference between sushi and crystal meth? One is ordinary life, the other is illegal to possess.
This is a *really* naive view.
It might be, but you can't get to a misdemeanor without a misdemeanor.
Start with jaywalking or public intoxication or something like that. Not sushi.
The concept you're looking for is endangering a fetus and it's already illegal in many states. Stuff like this gets fit under that envelope or not depending on who the mom is. It's outrageous. No one should be here defending it.
That's not what this woman was charged with or convicted of. She was convicted of a misdemeanor that also involved the death of a person.
Slippery slope doesn't lead to a different crime.
Anonymous
10/25/2021 11:38
Subject: Why isn’t the four-year sentence for a miscarriage a bigger story?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I’m just glad that poor kid never had to be born to such a loser mom. At least she won’t be having another drug addicted baby for the next four years.
100% this
This is so stupid. Laws like these won’t hit home with UMC women until it’s too late.
Imagine a college boyfriend who’s angry you broke up with him retaliating by saying you were drinking so you caused your miscarriage. Or better yet, a contentious divorce. What better way to get everything than to put the ex-wife in jail? Have you ever taken medication for depression? Anxiety? A glass of wine? An edible? Deli meat? Sushi? Exercised?
Once you open the door to criminalizing miscarriages, all adult women can be a target any time.
Everything in your list is legal. Do you understand the difference between sushi and crystal meth? One is ordinary life, the other is illegal to possess.
This is a *really* naive view.
It might be, but you can't get to a misdemeanor without a misdemeanor.
Start with jaywalking or public intoxication or something like that. Not sushi.
The concept you're looking for is endangering a fetus and it's already illegal in many states. Stuff like this gets fit under that envelope or not depending on who the mom is. It's outrageous. No one should be here defending it.
Anonymous
10/25/2021 11:37
Subject: Re:Why isn’t the four-year sentence for a miscarriage a bigger story?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I understand that drug addiction is an illness but I really don't feel bad for this woman. Maybe she can get clean in jail. My aunt was a NICU nurse and worked with too many inconsolable babies who were suffering, screaming and shaking from the symptoms of drug withdrawal. Her stories about these babies whom almost never had visitors and would often end up in foster care was heartbreaking.
Do you think people get drug treatment in jail? You sweet summer child.
Some do but it's also harder to get drugs in jail.
And what do you think happens when someone who was in jail, couldn't get drugs but also didn't get drug treatment, gets out? Think. It's on the tip of your tongue.
Anonymous
10/25/2021 10:19
Subject: Why isn’t the four-year sentence for a miscarriage a bigger story?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I’m just glad that poor kid never had to be born to such a loser mom. At least she won’t be having another drug addicted baby for the next four years.
100% this
This is so stupid. Laws like these won’t hit home with UMC women until it’s too late.
Imagine a college boyfriend who’s angry you broke up with him retaliating by saying you were drinking so you caused your miscarriage. Or better yet, a contentious divorce. What better way to get everything than to put the ex-wife in jail? Have you ever taken medication for depression? Anxiety? A glass of wine? An edible? Deli meat? Sushi? Exercised?
Once you open the door to criminalizing miscarriages, all adult women can be a target any time.
Everything in your list is legal. Do you understand the difference between sushi and crystal meth? One is ordinary life, the other is illegal to possess.
And your ignoring the law that’s being used to prosecute her. It sets the precedent that any action that could have an adverse impact on pregnancy is a criminal offense.
Okay let’s stick with illegal actions in my examples. What about the 20 year old college student who drinks and has a miscarriage? Drinking underage is illegal.
What about the middle aged mom who’s getting a divorce and takes an edible? Marijuana is illegal in most jurisdictions.
Should those women go to jail for murder if they miscarry?