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Anonymous wrote:141 5th graders to 58 11th graders?

For a public school?

Wow.

60% attention rate.

Range is going to be anywhere between 40-60%.

DCI 4-5%

Latin - I would guess also similar under 5%.

Huge contrast

Latin has a much higher retention, but they also backfill at every grade level. First number is number of students enrolled, number in parentheses is the number of students who continued on from the prior year.

SY19-20 5th grade class: 95 > 94 (92) > 91 (89) > 96 (91) > 94 (77) > 89 (89)
SY20-21 5th grade class: 95 > 96 (94) > 95 (95) > 97 (93) > 95 (78)
SY21-22 5th grade class: 96 > 93 (91) > 100 (93) > 98 (96)
SY22-23 5th grade class: 99 > 99 (95) > 98 (97)
SY23-24 5th grade class: 97 > 97 (96)

Same data for DCI.

First number is number of students enrolled, number in parentheses is the number of students who continued on from the prior year.

SY19-20 6th grade class: 254 > 260 (242) > 249 (241) > 247 (211) > 208 (205) > 203 (196)
SY20-21 6th grade class: 262 > 258 (248) > 268 (249) > 241 (222) > 228 (227)
SY21-22 6th grade class: 259 > 246 (235) > 246 (238) > 240 (201)
SY22-23 6th grade class: 272 > 257 (253) > 247 (239)
SY23-24 6th grade class: 274 > 262 (259)

If we make the simplifying assumption that all Latin and DCI attrition comes from the original class, we get retention rates from original class as follows:

BASIS retention through 8th: 59-73%
BASIS retention through 9th: 42-43%
DCI retention through 8th: 86-91%
DCI retention through 9th: 70-74%
Latin retention through 8th: 91-96%
Latin retention through 9th: 72-76%

Now provide the percentages for kids below grade level at Latin and DCI that are socially promoted every year.

Just because kids don’t leave doesn’t mean the school is any good.

Meeting or exceeding on CAPE, SY24-25 8th grade

BASIS ELA: 84%
BASIS Math: 79%
DCI ELA: 58%
DCI Math: 41%
Latin ELA: 72%
Latin Math: 63%

Citywide, the highest meeting or exceeding percentages were BASIS, Deal, and Latin for ELA and BASIS, Center City Congress Heights, Deal, and Latin for Math.

Interesting that Basis has the highest test scores in DC in BOTH ELA and math.

It does not just excel in math.

Sure. But how much of that is driven by the school vs the students? And what matters more (school pedagogy vs student body) in perceived success of a school? I think rational people will land at different points along that spectrum.

BASIS has the lowest at-risk percentage for any middle or high school in the city.

BASIS: 6%
SWW: 10%
Deal: 11%
Latin MS: 12%
Hardy: 13%
Latin HS: 14%
DCI: 18%
Latin Cooper MS: 19%
Banneker: 23%
Jackson-Reed: 26%
Stuart-Hobson: 27%
Duke Ellington: 30%
McKinley HS: 32%

Also O-A: 7%, ITDS: 21%,CHML: 24%, John-Francis: 27%, but these are not really comparable as the values also include PK-5 students.

Not only does Basis have the lowest at risk percentages, look at the SPED and ELL, basically negligible.

Also it really is not a fair comparison because one could argue it is a “test in” school from 6th on.

Take out the at risk, SPED, ELL, and be a test in school, then you will see comparable stats at Latin, DCI, Deal.

I mean just look at DCI, 3 times more at risk vs Basis. that is 300% more people. It is not rocket science.

And that is why when Basis boosters say their school has the highest scores, it it not a fair comparison. I would also add that Basis is known to cook their math scores because the kids don’t take the math test of the actual math subjects they are taking.

I mean, the scores are the scores. They tell you how the students at the school are performing. If you send your child to BASIS, almost all of their classmates will be on or above grade-level. That's valuable in itself.

But due to the differences in student demographics I don't think it tells you all that much about the comparative quality of the teaching/educational approach at BASIS.

Eh. This seems like an entirely theoretical construct that we don't use in any other context. No one says "well it's hard to say whether Harvard and Stanford are good schools because all their students were born on third base so we don't really know what value those universities added." Also, aside from the usual demographic stuff, student achievement is correlated with kids being in classes filled with other kids who are trying really hard to do well. BASIS offers that in spades.

How do you know BASIS is "filled with kids trying really hard"? How do you know students in other schools are not "trying really hard"?

Most public discourse I hear about Harvard is about legacy admits and networking, not teaching quality. Frankly I wouldn't want my child to go to Harvard, either. But I understand why some people do.

It's fine to value student demographics highly in decisionmaking. I don't understand why BASIS families are so hesitant to acknowledge that that's primarily what they're doing.

What?

This whole thread has been people complaining endlessly about how BASIS has such a high attrition rate because it aggressively weeds out kids who can't pass its tests. Now you're questioning whether kids there study more than at any other school?

We're clearly in the say-anything phase of people complaining about BASIS.

Actually, people have been arguing about the source of attrition, with BASIS supporters arguing it's students failing comps and BASIS detractors arguing it's people opting out of an unpleasant school environment.

oh stop. it's a pressure cooker environment. that's it. that's all.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:My comment on these retention numbers is that there is a very high chance your kid will be wanting to leave if they go to Basis.

So be prepared to continue playing the lottery and no guarantee of getting in anywhere.

Guess your kid can stay at Basis and be miserable. Last option is move.

It just seems like such a crapshoot about whether any particular kid will like the school. When we started looking into lottery schools we started with the assumption that getting into Basis was a ticket to high school, that if our kid got in we'd be set, and we could stay in our EOTP house. But we have since talked to so many people who ended up having to scramble to find other middle schools or high schools, including some who moved. Most of the time, the kids who didn't like it fit mold of the kids we're all told will like Basis -- the bright, hardworking kids who take school seriously. It has made us very cautious about the school. We'll probably send our math-oriented kid there if he gets in but we'd be sending him with our eyes wide open and have some backup plans. If he gets into either Latin, we're sending him there instead.

This is going to invite a lot of anger, but the kids I know who like it all have 98th or 99th percentile math scores.

This is something parents know about their kids in late elementary.

I have a kid that fits the math profile above. We looked at Basis and declined. Did not even list Basis in the lottery. We also knew a family that did list Basis and got in. They decided to turn down the offer after some thought because did not think it would be a good fit.

We knew our kid could handle Basis but that doesn’t mean kid will be happy. There is much more to school than being a high performer. It is not a race but a marathon and you need to look at the long haul. You need to know your kid.

Luckily, kid needed up somewhere where he could be challenged and having a more happier, well rounded experience. If middle school did not work out, we would have moved to the burbs.

But how do you know that your kid wouldn't have been challenged, happy, and well rounded at Basis, given that your kid didn't attend? One of the reasons the Basis threads are so toxic is that so many people like you have strong opinions about Basis without any firsthand experience.

Are you seriously questioning what I know about my own kid? We did the whole tour and talked with HOS, looked at the curriculum, etc…

Because my kid needs more than just challenging academics to be happy.

He needs open spaces and to burn off energy which he gets with 1/2 hour play at lunch and PE and fields.

He is very social and clubs and sports are important to him. Tons of that at his school where he does it 4 days a week and we don’t have to drive him anywhere.

He has other interests outside of academics and the large selection of electives offered at the school meets this need. In fact, so many great electives that it was hard to choose 6 for the year.

We have been in the Basis building with no light, cramped classrooms and hallways especially. It is damn depressing.

That’s why. You don’t have to be an actual student at the school to know what the deficits are as a family. Tour the building, talk to admin with your questions, and look at the limited curriculum. It is all there.

Anonymous wrote:Come on, almost any BASIS kid can keep up with the math with the right prep and support (read STEM oriented parents and tutors in the US context).

BASIS parents like to boast about having kids who can do well academically. From what I've seen, what these kids tend to have in common are UMC parents and possibly tutors, math whiz classmates and summer enrichment programs, that help.

In my native Taiwan, almost all the kids were doing BASIS level, or harder math, from the upper ES grades. What you Americans consider to super-duper GT math has been normal in regular Taiwan schools from a young age for several generations.

What happens here is that too many of the students don't get the math prep or push they need to succeed at BASIS before they start in 5th grade. For the most part, the problem is a lack of ambition and commitment to good math instruction on the part of the society, not the kids' innate ability. But self-congratulate away, don't let me stop you.

I find this comment odd on a variety of levels. On the one hand, it derides upper-middle-class parents as being clueless about the stronger math instruction available in places like Taiwan or Singapore. Then, in almost the same breath, it lambasts BASIS parents whose kids have had early math enrichment (e.g., AOPS/Beast Academy, RSM, etc.) — as if their children’s success is somehow illegitimate because they did the very thing those other systems normalize.

In reality, many of those parents invested in math instruction early precisely because they understood how deficient most U.S. elementary math programs are. They knew that if they wanted their kids to develop real mathematical architecture during the optimal time window, they had to do it themselves. You’d think the poster would see that as a good thing.

So I’m left wondering: who exactly is the target here? The “ignorant” parents who didn’t prepare? The “knowledgeable” ones whose kids are now doing well at BASIS? Or BASIS itself — which, at worst, is simply offering a curriculum that gets closer than most D.C. schools to the global standard the commenter claims to admire?

It all feels like an amorphous critique of BASIS parents in general — a kind of reflexive discomfort with people who’ve found something that works for them. But in the real world, there’s no BASIS fan club roaming around congratulating itself. There are just families navigating a limited system and trying to find the environment that works best — or least badly — for their kids.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:141 5th graders to 58 11th graders?

For a public school?

Wow.

60% attention rate.

Range is going to be anywhere between 40-60%.

DCI 4-5%

Latin - I would guess also similar under 5%.

Huge contrast

Latin has a much higher retention, but they also backfill at every grade level. First number is number of students enrolled, number in parentheses is the number of students who continued on from the prior year.

SY19-20 5th grade class: 95 > 94 (92) > 91 (89) > 96 (91) > 94 (77) > 89 (89)
SY20-21 5th grade class: 95 > 96 (94) > 95 (95) > 97 (93) > 95 (78)
SY21-22 5th grade class: 96 > 93 (91) > 100 (93) > 98 (96)
SY22-23 5th grade class: 99 > 99 (95) > 98 (97)
SY23-24 5th grade class: 97 > 97 (96)

Same data for DCI.

First number is number of students enrolled, number in parentheses is the number of students who continued on from the prior year.

SY19-20 6th grade class: 254 > 260 (242) > 249 (241) > 247 (211) > 208 (205) > 203 (196)
SY20-21 6th grade class: 262 > 258 (248) > 268 (249) > 241 (222) > 228 (227)
SY21-22 6th grade class: 259 > 246 (235) > 246 (238) > 240 (201)
SY22-23 6th grade class: 272 > 257 (253) > 247 (239)
SY23-24 6th grade class: 274 > 262 (259)

If we make the simplifying assumption that all Latin and DCI attrition comes from the original class, we get retention rates from original class as follows:

BASIS retention through 8th: 59-73%
BASIS retention through 9th: 42-43%
DCI retention through 8th: 86-91%
DCI retention through 9th: 70-74%
Latin retention through 8th: 91-96%
Latin retention through 9th: 72-76%

Now provide the percentages for kids below grade level at Latin and DCI that are socially promoted every year.

Just because kids don’t leave doesn’t mean the school is any good.

Meeting or exceeding on CAPE, SY24-25 8th grade

BASIS ELA: 84%
BASIS Math: 79%
DCI ELA: 58%
DCI Math: 41%
Latin ELA: 72%
Latin Math: 63%

Citywide, the highest meeting or exceeding percentages were BASIS, Deal, and Latin for ELA and BASIS, Center City Congress Heights, Deal, and Latin for Math.

Interesting that Basis has the highest test scores in DC in BOTH ELA and math.

It does not just excel in math.

Sure. But how much of that is driven by the school vs the students? And what matters more (school pedagogy vs student body) in perceived success of a school? I think rational people will land at different points along that spectrum.

BASIS has the lowest at-risk percentage for any middle or high school in the city.

BASIS: 6%
SWW: 10%
Deal: 11%
Latin MS: 12%
Hardy: 13%
Latin HS: 14%
DCI: 18%
Latin Cooper MS: 19%
Banneker: 23%
Jackson-Reed: 26%
Stuart-Hobson: 27%
Duke Ellington: 30%
McKinley HS: 32%

Also O-A: 7%, ITDS: 21%,CHML: 24%, John-Francis: 27%, but these are not really comparable as the values also include PK-5 students.

Not only does Basis have the lowest at risk percentages, look at the SPED and ELL, basically negligible.

Also it really is not a fair comparison because one could argue it is a “test in” school from 6th on.

Take out the at risk, SPED, ELL, and be a test in school, then you will see comparable stats at Latin, DCI, Deal.

I mean just look at DCI, 3 times more at risk vs Basis. that is 300% more people. It is not rocket science.

And that is why when Basis boosters say their school has the highest scores, it it not a fair comparison. I would also add that Basis is known to cook their math scores because the kids don’t take the math test of the actual math subjects they are taking.

I mean, the scores are the scores. They tell you how the students at the school are performing. If you send your child to BASIS, almost all of their classmates will be on or above grade-level. That's valuable in itself.

But due to the differences in student demographics I don't think it tells you all that much about the comparative quality of the teaching/educational approach at BASIS.

Eh. This seems like an entirely theoretical construct that we don't use in any other context. No one says "well it's hard to say whether Harvard and Stanford are good schools because all their students were born on third base so we don't really know what value those universities added." Also, aside from the usual demographic stuff, student achievement is correlated with kids being in classes filled with other kids who are trying really hard to do well. BASIS offers that in spades.

How do you know BASIS is "filled with kids trying really hard"? How do you know students in other schools are not "trying really hard"?

Most public discourse I hear about Harvard is about legacy admits and networking, not teaching quality. Frankly I wouldn't want my child to go to Harvard, either. But I understand why some people do.

It's fine to value student demographics highly in decisionmaking. I don't understand why BASIS families are so hesitant to acknowledge that that's primarily what they're doing.

What?

This whole thread has been people complaining endlessly about how BASIS has such a high attrition rate because it aggressively weeds out kids who can't pass its tests. Now you're questioning whether kids there study more than at any other school?

We're clearly in the say-anything phase of people complaining about BASIS.

Actually, people have been arguing about the source of attrition, with BASIS supporters arguing it's students failing comps and BASIS detractors arguing it's people opting out of an unpleasant school environment.

Which other schools? The humanities instruction at the school we left for is far better and the math teaching, too.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:141 5th graders to 58 11th graders?

For a public school?

Wow.

60% attention rate.

Range is going to be anywhere between 40-60%.

DCI 4-5%

Latin - I would guess also similar under 5%.

Huge contrast

Latin has a much higher retention, but they also backfill at every grade level. First number is number of students enrolled, number in parentheses is the number of students who continued on from the prior year.

SY19-20 5th grade class: 95 > 94 (92) > 91 (89) > 96 (91) > 94 (77) > 89 (89)
SY20-21 5th grade class: 95 > 96 (94) > 95 (95) > 97 (93) > 95 (78)
SY21-22 5th grade class: 96 > 93 (91) > 100 (93) > 98 (96)
SY22-23 5th grade class: 99 > 99 (95) > 98 (97)
SY23-24 5th grade class: 97 > 97 (96)

Same data for DCI.

First number is number of students enrolled, number in parentheses is the number of students who continued on from the prior year.

SY19-20 6th grade class: 254 > 260 (242) > 249 (241) > 247 (211) > 208 (205) > 203 (196)
SY20-21 6th grade class: 262 > 258 (248) > 268 (249) > 241 (222) > 228 (227)
SY21-22 6th grade class: 259 > 246 (235) > 246 (238) > 240 (201)
SY22-23 6th grade class: 272 > 257 (253) > 247 (239)
SY23-24 6th grade class: 274 > 262 (259)

If we make the simplifying assumption that all Latin and DCI attrition comes from the original class, we get retention rates from original class as follows:

BASIS retention through 8th: 59-73%
BASIS retention through 9th: 42-43%
DCI retention through 8th: 86-91%
DCI retention through 9th: 70-74%
Latin retention through 8th: 91-96%
Latin retention through 9th: 72-76%

Now provide the percentages for kids below grade level at Latin and DCI that are socially promoted every year.

Just because kids don’t leave doesn’t mean the school is any good.

Meeting or exceeding on CAPE, SY24-25 8th grade

BASIS ELA: 84%
BASIS Math: 79%
DCI ELA: 58%
DCI Math: 41%
Latin ELA: 72%
Latin Math: 63%

Citywide, the highest meeting or exceeding percentages were BASIS, Deal, and Latin for ELA and BASIS, Center City Congress Heights, Deal, and Latin for Math.

Interesting that Basis has the highest test scores in DC in BOTH ELA and math.

It does not just excel in math.

Sure. But how much of that is driven by the school vs the students? And what matters more (school pedagogy vs student body) in perceived success of a school? I think rational people will land at different points along that spectrum.

BASIS has the lowest at-risk percentage for any middle or high school in the city.

BASIS: 6%
SWW: 10%
Deal: 11%
Latin MS: 12%
Hardy: 13%
Latin HS: 14%
DCI: 18%
Latin Cooper MS: 19%
Banneker: 23%
Jackson-Reed: 26%
Stuart-Hobson: 27%
Duke Ellington: 30%
McKinley HS: 32%

Also O-A: 7%, ITDS: 21%,CHML: 24%, John-Francis: 27%, but these are not really comparable as the values also include PK-5 students.

Not only does Basis have the lowest at risk percentages, look at the SPED and ELL, basically negligible.

Also it really is not a fair comparison because one could argue it is a “test in” school from 6th on.

Take out the at risk, SPED, ELL, and be a test in school, then you will see comparable stats at Latin, DCI, Deal.

I mean just look at DCI, 3 times more at risk vs Basis. that is 300% more people. It is not rocket science.

And that is why when Basis boosters say their school has the highest scores, it it not a fair comparison. I would also add that Basis is known to cook their math scores because the kids don’t take the math test of the actual math subjects they are taking.

I mean, the scores are the scores. They tell you how the students at the school are performing. If you send your child to BASIS, almost all of their classmates will be on or above grade-level. That's valuable in itself.

But due to the differences in student demographics I don't think it tells you all that much about the comparative quality of the teaching/educational approach at BASIS.

Eh. This seems like an entirely theoretical construct that we don't use in any other context. No one says "well it's hard to say whether Harvard and Stanford are good schools because all their students were born on third base so we don't really know what value those universities added." Also, aside from the usual demographic stuff, student achievement is correlated with kids being in classes filled with other kids who are trying really hard to do well. BASIS offers that in spades.

How do you know BASIS is "filled with kids trying really hard"? How do you know students in other schools are not "trying really hard"?

Most public discourse I hear about Harvard is about legacy admits and networking, not teaching quality. Frankly I wouldn't want my child to go to Harvard, either. But I understand why some people do.

It's fine to value student demographics highly in decisionmaking. I don't understand why BASIS families are so hesitant to acknowledge that that's primarily what they're doing.

Oh. You haven’t heard public discourse about teaching quality at Harvard and thus wouldn’t want your kid to go there.

Your critique of Basis sounds very credible.

Actually what I said is that it's not clear whether school pedagogy or student body is more important to the success of any given school, different people will value one or the other more highly in their decisionmaking, and that both approaches are rational.

It's not a critique BASIS. It's an observation of what BASIS is providing compared to other schools based on quantitative information on school performance and school demographics.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My comment on these retention numbers is that there is a very high chance your kid will be wanting to leave if they go to Basis.

So be prepared to continue playing the lottery and no guarantee of getting in anywhere.

Guess your kid can stay at Basis and be miserable. Last option is move.

It just seems like such a crapshoot about whether any particular kid will like the school. When we started looking into lottery schools we started with the assumption that getting into Basis was a ticket to high school, that if our kid got in we'd be set, and we could stay in our EOTP house. But we have since talked to so many people who ended up having to scramble to find other middle schools or high schools, including some who moved. Most of the time, the kids who didn't like it fit mold of the kids we're all told will like Basis -- the bright, hardworking kids who take school seriously. It has made us very cautious about the school. We'll probably send our math-oriented kid there if he gets in but we'd be sending him with our eyes wide open and have some backup plans. If he gets into either Latin, we're sending him there instead.

This is going to invite a lot of anger, but the kids I know who like it all have 98th or 99th percentile math scores.

This is something parents know about their kids in late elementary.

This poster is not saying that all students who are good at math will like BASIS. This poster is saying that in this poster's experience, students who are NOT good at math will NOT like BASIS.

So the poster is not suggesting that any student who gets, for example, a high 5 on the math CAPE will like BASIS. Of course that's not the case, everyone's different and there are so many factors that go into whether a student likes a school. I think the idea is more that students who already struggle with math in elementary school (e.g., who perhaps get a 3 or below on the math CAPE or struggle with iReady math despite putting in some effort) will very likely NOT like BASIS. From what I've observed as a BASIS parent, that seems accurate.

And the main reason for that is that kids who have to spend a lot of time and energy just keeping up with the schoolwork don't have as much time as they would like for extracurriulars, sports, and other things that provide a well-rounded school experience. The kids who like BASIS (mine included) seem to be the ones who can do well academically without spending all that much time on academics and still have a lot of time to participate in extracurriculars.

Agree with all of this. The amount of time kids are spending on HW and studying at home varies from 0-15 minutes all the way to 3 hours daily, for the same classes. For kids who can easily handle the math and science (for math, physics and chem) and have good memories (for history, biology and english), there is plenty of time for clubs, sports and relaxation and they are simply much happier as a result.

Parents have enough info/test scores about their kids by the time the 4th grade lottery season hits to know if they can handle it. If they had stayed in DCPS, accelerated math options would be decided by those test scores. at BASIS, it needs to be assessed by the parents.

So that was a response to how it feels like a "crapshoot." BASIS doesn't seem to want to get explicit about it, but they repeatedly say things like "accelerated curriculum" in the hopes that parents do their due diligence about what they means.

+1. We chose BASIS because we knew that our kids would actually enjoy the curriculum plus have plenty of time for outside ECs they were already engaged in. For high school, our eldest was accepted to both Walls and private schools, and turned them down to stay at BASIS. If we thought our kids wouldn't like BASIS, we would never have sent them there.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My comment on these retention numbers is that there is a very high chance your kid will be wanting to leave if they go to Basis.

So be prepared to continue playing the lottery and no guarantee of getting in anywhere.

Guess your kid can stay at Basis and be miserable. Last option is move.

It just seems like such a crapshoot about whether any particular kid will like the school. When we started looking into lottery schools we started with the assumption that getting into Basis was a ticket to high school, that if our kid got in we'd be set, and we could stay in our EOTP house. But we have since talked to so many people who ended up having to scramble to find other middle schools or high schools, including some who moved. Most of the time, the kids who didn't like it fit mold of the kids we're all told will like Basis -- the bright, hardworking kids who take school seriously. It has made us very cautious about the school. We'll probably send our math-oriented kid there if he gets in but we'd be sending him with our eyes wide open and have some backup plans. If he gets into either Latin, we're sending him there instead.

This is going to invite a lot of anger, but the kids I know who like it all have 98th or 99th percentile math scores.

This is something parents know about their kids in late elementary.

This poster is not saying that all students who are good at math will like BASIS. This poster is saying that in this poster's experience, students who are NOT good at math will NOT like BASIS.

So the poster is not suggesting that any student who gets, for example, a high 5 on the math CAPE will like BASIS. Of course that's not the case, everyone's different and there are so many factors that go into whether a student likes a school. I think the idea is more that students who already struggle with math in elementary school (e.g., who perhaps get a 3 or below on the math CAPE or struggle with iReady math despite putting in some effort) will very likely NOT like BASIS. From what I've observed as a BASIS parent, that seems accurate.

And the main reason for that is that kids who have to spend a lot of time and energy just keeping up with the schoolwork don't have as much time as they would like for extracurriulars, sports, and other things that provide a well-rounded school experience. The kids who like BASIS (mine included) seem to be the ones who can do well academically without spending all that much time on academics and still have a lot of time to participate in extracurriculars.

Agree with all of this. The amount of time kids are spending on HW and studying at home varies from 0-15 minutes all the way to 3 hours daily, for the same classes. For kids who can easily handle the math and science (for math, physics and chem) and have good memories (for history, biology and english), there is plenty of time for clubs, sports and relaxation and they are simply much happier as a result.

Parents have enough info/test scores about their kids by the time the 4th grade lottery season hits to know if they can handle it. If they had stayed in DCPS, accelerated math options would be decided by those test scores. at BASIS, it needs to be assessed by the parents.

So that was a response to how it feels like a "crapshoot." BASIS doesn't seem to want to get explicit about it, but they repeatedly say things like "accelerated curriculum" in the hopes that parents do their due diligence about what they means.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:141 5th graders to 58 11th graders?

For a public school?

Wow.

60% attention rate.

Range is going to be anywhere between 40-60%.

DCI 4-5%

Latin - I would guess also similar under 5%.

Huge contrast

Latin has a much higher retention, but they also backfill at every grade level. First number is number of students enrolled, number in parentheses is the number of students who continued on from the prior year.

SY19-20 5th grade class: 95 > 94 (92) > 91 (89) > 96 (91) > 94 (77) > 89 (89)
SY20-21 5th grade class: 95 > 96 (94) > 95 (95) > 97 (93) > 95 (78)
SY21-22 5th grade class: 96 > 93 (91) > 100 (93) > 98 (96)
SY22-23 5th grade class: 99 > 99 (95) > 98 (97)
SY23-24 5th grade class: 97 > 97 (96)

Same data for DCI.

First number is number of students enrolled, number in parentheses is the number of students who continued on from the prior year.

SY19-20 6th grade class: 254 > 260 (242) > 249 (241) > 247 (211) > 208 (205) > 203 (196)
SY20-21 6th grade class: 262 > 258 (248) > 268 (249) > 241 (222) > 228 (227)
SY21-22 6th grade class: 259 > 246 (235) > 246 (238) > 240 (201)
SY22-23 6th grade class: 272 > 257 (253) > 247 (239)
SY23-24 6th grade class: 274 > 262 (259)

If we make the simplifying assumption that all Latin and DCI attrition comes from the original class, we get retention rates from original class as follows:

BASIS retention through 8th: 59-73%
BASIS retention through 9th: 42-43%
DCI retention through 8th: 86-91%
DCI retention through 9th: 70-74%
Latin retention through 8th: 91-96%
Latin retention through 9th: 72-76%

Now provide the percentages for kids below grade level at Latin and DCI that are socially promoted every year.

Just because kids don’t leave doesn’t mean the school is any good.

Meeting or exceeding on CAPE, SY24-25 8th grade

BASIS ELA: 84%
BASIS Math: 79%
DCI ELA: 58%
DCI Math: 41%
Latin ELA: 72%
Latin Math: 63%

Citywide, the highest meeting or exceeding percentages were BASIS, Deal, and Latin for ELA and BASIS, Center City Congress Heights, Deal, and Latin for Math.

Interesting that Basis has the highest test scores in DC in BOTH ELA and math.

It does not just excel in math.

Sure. But how much of that is driven by the school vs the students? And what matters more (school pedagogy vs student body) in perceived success of a school? I think rational people will land at different points along that spectrum.

BASIS has the lowest at-risk percentage for any middle or high school in the city.

BASIS: 6%
SWW: 10%
Deal: 11%
Latin MS: 12%
Hardy: 13%
Latin HS: 14%
DCI: 18%
Latin Cooper MS: 19%
Banneker: 23%
Jackson-Reed: 26%
Stuart-Hobson: 27%
Duke Ellington: 30%
McKinley HS: 32%

Also O-A: 7%, ITDS: 21%,CHML: 24%, John-Francis: 27%, but these are not really comparable as the values also include PK-5 students.

Not only does Basis have the lowest at risk percentages, look at the SPED and ELL, basically negligible.

Also it really is not a fair comparison because one could argue it is a “test in” school from 6th on.

Take out the at risk, SPED, ELL, and be a test in school, then you will see comparable stats at Latin, DCI, Deal.

I mean just look at DCI, 3 times more at risk vs Basis. that is 300% more people. It is not rocket science.

And that is why when Basis boosters say their school has the highest scores, it it not a fair comparison. I would also add that Basis is known to cook their math scores because the kids don’t take the math test of the actual math subjects they are taking.

I mean, the scores are the scores. They tell you how the students at the school are performing. If you send your child to BASIS, almost all of their classmates will be on or above grade-level. That's valuable in itself.

But due to the differences in student demographics I don't think it tells you all that much about the comparative quality of the teaching/educational approach at BASIS.

Eh. This seems like an entirely theoretical construct that we don't use in any other context. No one says "well it's hard to say whether Harvard and Stanford are good schools because all their students were born on third base so we don't really know what value those universities added." Also, aside from the usual demographic stuff, student achievement is correlated with kids being in classes filled with other kids who are trying really hard to do well. BASIS offers that in spades.

How do you know BASIS is "filled with kids trying really hard"? How do you know students in other schools are not "trying really hard"?

Most public discourse I hear about Harvard is about legacy admits and networking, not teaching quality. Frankly I wouldn't want my child to go to Harvard, either. But I understand why some people do.

It's fine to value student demographics highly in decisionmaking. I don't understand why BASIS families are so hesitant to acknowledge that that's primarily what they're doing.

What?

This whole thread has been people complaining endlessly about how BASIS has such a high attrition rate because it aggressively weeds out kids who can't pass its tests. Now you're questioning whether kids there study more than at any other school?

We're clearly in the say-anything phase of people complaining about BASIS.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My comment on these retention numbers is that there is a very high chance your kid will be wanting to leave if they go to Basis.

So be prepared to continue playing the lottery and no guarantee of getting in anywhere.

Guess your kid can stay at Basis and be miserable. Last option is move.

It just seems like such a crapshoot about whether any particular kid will like the school. When we started looking into lottery schools we started with the assumption that getting into Basis was a ticket to high school, that if our kid got in we'd be set, and we could stay in our EOTP house. But we have since talked to so many people who ended up having to scramble to find other middle schools or high schools, including some who moved. Most of the time, the kids who didn't like it fit mold of the kids we're all told will like Basis -- the bright, hardworking kids who take school seriously. It has made us very cautious about the school. We'll probably send our math-oriented kid there if he gets in but we'd be sending him with our eyes wide open and have some backup plans. If he gets into either Latin, we're sending him there instead.

This is going to invite a lot of anger, but the kids I know who like it all have 98th or 99th percentile math scores.

This is something parents know about their kids in late elementary.

This poster is not saying that all students who are good at math will like BASIS. This poster is saying that in this poster's experience, students who are NOT good at math will NOT like BASIS.

So the poster is not suggesting that any student who gets, for example, a high 5 on the math CAPE will like BASIS. Of course that's not the case, everyone's different and there are so many factors that go into whether a student likes a school. I think the idea is more that students who already struggle with math in elementary school (e.g., who perhaps get a 3 or below on the math CAPE or struggle with iReady math despite putting in some effort) will very likely NOT like BASIS. From what I've observed as a BASIS parent, that seems accurate.

And the main reason for that is that kids who have to spend a lot of time and energy just keeping up with the schoolwork don't have as much time as they would like for extracurriulars, sports, and other things that provide a well-rounded school experience. The kids who like BASIS (mine included) seem to be the ones who can do well academically without spending all that much time on academics and still have a lot of time to participate in extracurriculars.

This seems right.

This seems right. My child is having a good experience at Basis because they have to work hard-ish and stay organized but are not otherwise cognitively taxed by the curriculum. It’s not a breeze, but right-sized and challenging enough to keep them sharp and growing. We had imagined constant late nights and frequent frustration, but that just hasn’t been the case. Still plenty of relaxed bandwidth for two sports and a musical instrument.

FWIW — I’m FAR less certain that Basis will be a good fit for our younger child.

Come on, almost any BASIS kid can keep up with the math with the right prep and support (read STEM oriented parents and tutors in the US context).

BASIS parents like to boast about having kids who can do well academically. From what I've seen, what these kids tend to have in common are UMC parents and possibly tutors, math whiz classmates and summer enrichment programs, that help.

In my native Taiwan, almost all the kids were doing BASIS level, or harder math, from the upper ES grades. What you Americans consider to super-duper GT math has been normal in regular Taiwan schools from a young age for several generations.

What happens here is that too many of the students don't get the math prep or push they need to succeed at BASIS before they start in 5th grade. For the most part, the problem is a lack of ambition and commitment to good math instruction on the part of the society, not the kids' innate ability. But self-congratulate away, don't let me stop you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My comment on these retention numbers is that there is a very high chance your kid will be wanting to leave if they go to Basis.

So be prepared to continue playing the lottery and no guarantee of getting in anywhere.

Guess your kid can stay at Basis and be miserable. Last option is move.

It just seems like such a crapshoot about whether any particular kid will like the school. When we started looking into lottery schools we started with the assumption that getting into Basis was a ticket to high school, that if our kid got in we'd be set, and we could stay in our EOTP house. But we have since talked to so many people who ended up having to scramble to find other middle schools or high schools, including some who moved. Most of the time, the kids who didn't like it fit mold of the kids we're all told will like Basis -- the bright, hardworking kids who take school seriously. It has made us very cautious about the school. We'll probably send our math-oriented kid there if he gets in but we'd be sending him with our eyes wide open and have some backup plans. If he gets into either Latin, we're sending him there instead.

This is going to invite a lot of anger, but the kids I know who like it all have 98th or 99th percentile math scores.

This is something parents know about their kids in late elementary.

This poster is not saying that all students who are good at math will like BASIS. This poster is saying that in this poster's experience, students who are NOT good at math will NOT like BASIS.

So the poster is not suggesting that any student who gets, for example, a high 5 on the math CAPE will like BASIS. Of course that's not the case, everyone's different and there are so many factors that go into whether a student likes a school. I think the idea is more that students who already struggle with math in elementary school (e.g., who perhaps get a 3 or below on the math CAPE or struggle with iReady math despite putting in some effort) will very likely NOT like BASIS. From what I've observed as a BASIS parent, that seems accurate.

And the main reason for that is that kids who have to spend a lot of time and energy just keeping up with the schoolwork don't have as much time as they would like for extracurriulars, sports, and other things that provide a well-rounded school experience. The kids who like BASIS (mine included) seem to be the ones who can do well academically without spending all that much time on academics and still have a lot of time to participate in extracurriculars.

This seems right.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My comment on these retention numbers is that there is a very high chance your kid will be wanting to leave if they go to Basis.

So be prepared to continue playing the lottery and no guarantee of getting in anywhere.

Guess your kid can stay at Basis and be miserable. Last option is move.

It just seems like such a crapshoot about whether any particular kid will like the school. When we started looking into lottery schools we started with the assumption that getting into Basis was a ticket to high school, that if our kid got in we'd be set, and we could stay in our EOTP house. But we have since talked to so many people who ended up having to scramble to find other middle schools or high schools, including some who moved. Most of the time, the kids who didn't like it fit mold of the kids we're all told will like Basis -- the bright, hardworking kids who take school seriously. It has made us very cautious about the school. We'll probably send our math-oriented kid there if he gets in but we'd be sending him with our eyes wide open and have some backup plans. If he gets into either Latin, we're sending him there instead.

This is going to invite a lot of anger, but the kids I know who like it all have 98th or 99th percentile math scores.

This is something parents know about their kids in late elementary.

This poster is not saying that all students who are good at math will like BASIS. This poster is saying that in this poster's experience, students who are NOT good at math will NOT like BASIS.

So the poster is not suggesting that any student who gets, for example, a high 5 on the math CAPE will like BASIS. Of course that's not the case, everyone's different and there are so many factors that go into whether a student likes a school. I think the idea is more that students who already struggle with math in elementary school (e.g., who perhaps get a 3 or below on the math CAPE or struggle with iReady math despite putting in some effort) will very likely NOT like BASIS. From what I've observed as a BASIS parent, that seems accurate.

And the main reason for that is that kids who have to spend a lot of time and energy just keeping up with the schoolwork don't have as much time as they would like for extracurriulars, sports, and other things that provide a well-rounded school experience. The kids who like BASIS (mine included) seem to be the ones who can do well academically without spending all that much time on academics and still have a lot of time to participate in extracurriculars.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:141 5th graders to 58 11th graders?

For a public school?

Wow.

60% attention rate.

Range is going to be anywhere between 40-60%.

DCI 4-5%

Latin - I would guess also similar under 5%.

Huge contrast

Latin has a much higher retention, but they also backfill at every grade level. First number is number of students enrolled, number in parentheses is the number of students who continued on from the prior year.

SY19-20 5th grade class: 95 > 94 (92) > 91 (89) > 96 (91) > 94 (77) > 89 (89)
SY20-21 5th grade class: 95 > 96 (94) > 95 (95) > 97 (93) > 95 (78)
SY21-22 5th grade class: 96 > 93 (91) > 100 (93) > 98 (96)
SY22-23 5th grade class: 99 > 99 (95) > 98 (97)
SY23-24 5th grade class: 97 > 97 (96)

Same data for DCI.

First number is number of students enrolled, number in parentheses is the number of students who continued on from the prior year.

SY19-20 6th grade class: 254 > 260 (242) > 249 (241) > 247 (211) > 208 (205) > 203 (196)
SY20-21 6th grade class: 262 > 258 (248) > 268 (249) > 241 (222) > 228 (227)
SY21-22 6th grade class: 259 > 246 (235) > 246 (238) > 240 (201)
SY22-23 6th grade class: 272 > 257 (253) > 247 (239)
SY23-24 6th grade class: 274 > 262 (259)

If we make the simplifying assumption that all Latin and DCI attrition comes from the original class, we get retention rates from original class as follows:

BASIS retention through 8th: 59-73%
BASIS retention through 9th: 42-43%
DCI retention through 8th: 86-91%
DCI retention through 9th: 70-74%
Latin retention through 8th: 91-96%
Latin retention through 9th: 72-76%

Now provide the percentages for kids below grade level at Latin and DCI that are socially promoted every year.

Just because kids don’t leave doesn’t mean the school is any good.

Meeting or exceeding on CAPE, SY24-25 8th grade

BASIS ELA: 84%
BASIS Math: 79%
DCI ELA: 58%
DCI Math: 41%
Latin ELA: 72%
Latin Math: 63%

Citywide, the highest meeting or exceeding percentages were BASIS, Deal, and Latin for ELA and BASIS, Center City Congress Heights, Deal, and Latin for Math.

Interesting that Basis has the highest test scores in DC in BOTH ELA and math.

It does not just excel in math.

Sure. But how much of that is driven by the school vs the students? And what matters more (school pedagogy vs student body) in perceived success of a school? I think rational people will land at different points along that spectrum.

BASIS has the lowest at-risk percentage for any middle or high school in the city.

BASIS: 6%
SWW: 10%
Deal: 11%
Latin MS: 12%
Hardy: 13%
Latin HS: 14%
DCI: 18%
Latin Cooper MS: 19%
Banneker: 23%
Jackson-Reed: 26%
Stuart-Hobson: 27%
Duke Ellington: 30%
McKinley HS: 32%

Also O-A: 7%, ITDS: 21%,CHML: 24%, John-Francis: 27%, but these are not really comparable as the values also include PK-5 students.

Not only does Basis have the lowest at risk percentages, look at the SPED and ELL, basically negligible.

Also it really is not a fair comparison because one could argue it is a “test in” school from 6th on.

Take out the at risk, SPED, ELL, and be a test in school, then you will see comparable stats at Latin, DCI, Deal.

I mean just look at DCI, 3 times more at risk vs Basis. that is 300% more people. It is not rocket science.

And that is why when Basis boosters say their school has the highest scores, it it not a fair comparison. I would also add that Basis is known to cook their math scores because the kids don’t take the math test of the actual math subjects they are taking.

I mean, the scores are the scores. They tell you how the students at the school are performing. If you send your child to BASIS, almost all of their classmates will be on or above grade-level. That's valuable in itself.

But due to the differences in student demographics I don't think it tells you all that much about the comparative quality of the teaching/educational approach at BASIS.

Eh. This seems like an entirely theoretical construct that we don't use in any other context. No one says "well it's hard to say whether Harvard and Stanford are good schools because all their students were born on third base so we don't really know what value those universities added." Also, aside from the usual demographic stuff, student achievement is correlated with kids being in classes filled with other kids who are trying really hard to do well. BASIS offers that in spades.

How do you know BASIS is "filled with kids trying really hard"? How do you know students in other schools are not "trying really hard"?

Most public discourse I hear about Harvard is about legacy admits and networking, not teaching quality. Frankly I wouldn't want my child to go to Harvard, either. But I understand why some people do.

It's fine to value student demographics highly in decisionmaking. I don't understand why BASIS families are so hesitant to acknowledge that that's primarily what they're doing.

Oh. You haven’t heard public discourse about teaching quality at Harvard and thus wouldn’t want your kid to go there.

Your critique of Basis sounds very credible.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My comment on these retention numbers is that there is a very high chance your kid will be wanting to leave if they go to Basis.

So be prepared to continue playing the lottery and no guarantee of getting in anywhere.

Guess your kid can stay at Basis and be miserable. Last option is move.

It just seems like such a crapshoot about whether any particular kid will like the school. When we started looking into lottery schools we started with the assumption that getting into Basis was a ticket to high school, that if our kid got in we'd be set, and we could stay in our EOTP house. But we have since talked to so many people who ended up having to scramble to find other middle schools or high schools, including some who moved. Most of the time, the kids who didn't like it fit mold of the kids we're all told will like Basis -- the bright, hardworking kids who take school seriously. It has made us very cautious about the school. We'll probably send our math-oriented kid there if he gets in but we'd be sending him with our eyes wide open and have some backup plans. If he gets into either Latin, we're sending him there instead.

This is going to invite a lot of anger, but the kids I know who like it all have 98th or 99th percentile math scores.

This is something parents know about their kids in late elementary.

I have a kid that fits the math profile above. We looked at Basis and declined. Did not even list Basis in the lottery. We also knew a family that did list Basis and got in. They decided to turn down the offer after some thought because did not think it would be a good fit.

We knew our kid could handle Basis but that doesn’t mean kid will be happy. There is much more to school than being a high performer. It is not a race but a marathon and you need to look at the long haul. You need to know your kid.

Luckily, kid needed up somewhere where he could be challenged and having a more happier, well rounded experience. If middle school did not work out, we would have moved to the burbs.

After researching the options, we only applied to one school in the lottery: BASIS DC.

Our kids are there now and doing great.